Tom Wilson, 20 goals and counting

[TomasHertlsRooster]

You would take Hertl over Wilson for a 7 game series?

Zero chance for me.

The logic which would lead somebody to take Tom Wilson over Tomas Hertl is the exact same logic which would lead somebody to take Ryan Reaves over Tom Wilson.

In both cases, it would be a bad decision.

 

[Portable Mink]

No one would ever take Reaves over Wilson to give them a better chance of winning a series. Ever.
Plenty of people, including most GM's from radio/podcast discussions that I have heard would take Wilson over a lot of skill players including someone like Hertl.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

No one would ever take Reaves over Wilson to give them a better chance of winning a series. Ever.
Plenty of people, including most GM's from radio/podcast discussions that I have heard would take Wilson over a lot of skill players including someone like Hertl.

No GM from a radio/podcast discussion has actually said they would take Tom Wilson over Tomas Hertl. In fact, I haven’t even seen a single podcast or radio discussion cited in this thread. Appeal to authority arguments are always lame, but this is an appeal to an authority which doesn’t even exist.

The only reason to take Tom Wilson over Tomas Hertl would be because Tom Wilson is bigger, stronger, more physical, and better at fighting. That same exact logic would be why somebody would take Ryan Reaves over Tom Wilson for a playoff series. After all, Reaves clearly showed Wilson who is boss when he concussed him with a clean hit.

For all the talk of “nobody had an answer for Wilson in the playoffs”, I would say Hertl in those very same playoffs provided much more of an actual force that nobody had an answer for. Hertl went head to head with Ryan Getzlaf in the first round and completely destroyed him. Then in the Vegas series, Vegas’ only answer for Hertl was Fleury and the posts. Hertl individually had more high danger chances than the entire Vegas team did when he was on the ice. That’s a lot more than Wilson who concussed a depth player and had narratives written about him as his team went 2-1 while he watched from the press box for the 3 games he was suspended for. I would be curious to see what a Vegas fan like @Han Solo might say about this one, though.

 

[Portable Mink]

thats not the same logic, thats being obtuse.

Hertl had 6 even stregth points in 10 games
0.6 per game
Wilson had 15 in 21 games
0.71 per game (he didnt play any PP)

Both had 2 minutes shorthanded per game

Hertl 17 hits
Wilson 100

Reaves had 37 hits, 2 points and played 8 minutes a game.

Just looking at purely the stats its a ridiculous comparison.
Then you watch the games and you see Wilson was one of the biggest factors on the ice almost every game. He scared the bejesus out of defenders going back for the puck and ruined teams transition game as a result. He also hit a bunch of guys who literally did nothing for the rest of the series after that.

Youre right, no GM is talking about Hertl fullstop on the radio cept maybe yours.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

thats not the same logic, thats being obtuse.

Hertl had 6 even stregth points in 10 games
0.6 per game
Wilson had 15 in 21 games
0.71 per game (he didnt play any PP)

Both had 2 minutes shorthanded per game

Hertl 17 hits
Wilson 100

Reaves had 37 hits, 2 points and played 8 minutes a game.

Just looking at purely the stats its a ridiculous comparison.
Then you watch the games and you see Wilson was one of the biggest factors on the ice almost every game. He scared the bejesus out of defenders going back for the puck and ruined teams transition game as a result. He also hit a bunch of guys who literally did nothing for the rest of the series after that.

Youre right, no GM is talking about Hertl fullstop on the radio cept maybe yours.

No GM talking about any player has been posted in this thread at all. It was literally just made up by a poster and now it's being treated as a fact. It's completely made up and completely irrelevant. That's what you don't seem to understand.

Wilson had a strong playoff performance last year, that's not in question, but I'm not all that impressed by him racking up 6 secondary assists with Kuznetsov and Ovechkin by his side. Hertl, meanwhile, had 5 goals and one primary assist at even strength, and he did that playing with Logan Couture and Mikkel f***ing Boedker by his side. And over their playoff careers, they both have 20 even strength points, but Hertl got his in 19 fewer games than Wilson. I also don't see a reason to take away Hertl's PP production from him entirely. PP goals count all the same, and there's no guarantee that Wilson would be scoring them if he got PP time.

Wilson being one of the biggest factors on the ice almost every game - that's just not true. It's a narrative that the media likes to push and fans eat it up because people love grit and toughness and physicality. In reality, the biggest factors on the ice in almost every single game were Kuznetsov and Ovechkin. The two of them had a playoff run for the ages and in the 3 games that Wilson missed due to suspension, Washington went 2-1, and Kuznetsov had 2 goals and 3 assists while Ovechkin had 2 assists. Wilson didn't ruin any team's transition game or hit guys who did nothing for the rest of the series. That's massive hyperbole.

 

[HTFN]

No GM talking about any player has been posted in this thread at all. It was literally just made up by a poster and now it's being treated as a fact. It's completely made up and completely irrelevant. That's what you don't seem to understand.

Wilson had a strong playoff performance last year, that's not in question, but I'm not all that impressed by him racking up 6 secondary assists with Kuznetsov and Ovechkin by his side. Hertl, meanwhile, had 5 goals and one primary assist at even strength, and he did that playing with Logan Couture and Mikkel ****ing Boedker by his side. And over their playoff careers, they both have 20 even strength points, but Hertl got his in 19 fewer games than Wilson. I also don't see a reason to take away Hertl's PP production from him entirely. PP goals count all the same, and there's no guarantee that Wilson would be scoring them if he got PP time.

Wilson being one of the biggest factors on the ice almost every game - that's just not true. It's a narrative that the media likes to push and fans eat it up because people love grit and toughness and physicality. In reality, the biggest factors on the ice in almost every single game were Kuznetsov and Ovechkin. The two of them had a playoff run for the ages and in the 3 games that Wilson missed due to suspension, Washington went 2-1, and Kuznetsov had 2 goals and 3 assists while Ovechkin had 2 assists. Wilson didn't ruin any team's transition game or hit guys who did nothing for the rest of the series. That's massive hyperbole.

No, it really is. If you don't want to see it you're never going to but you can go back and watch those games. It's there. If you're not seeing it it's because you've never experienced it, and you're not appropriately valuing the effect it has on a person.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

No, it really is. If you don't want to see it you're never going to but you can go back and watch those games. It's there. If you're not seeing it it's because you've never experienced it, and you're not appropriately valuing the effect it has on a person.

Nope. I’ve seen it from a player like Raffi Torres who was pretty damn similar to Tom Wilson. I also see it from a player like Evander Kane who isn’t quite as physically dominant as Wilson but who still provides that to some degree and is also a much better player. There’s an impact for sure but it’s nowhere near one of the biggest impacts in a playoff run where Ovechkin has 15 goals, Kuznetsov has 32 points, Nicklas Backstrom puts up 23 points on the second line, Holtby posts a .922, and they do this all on a Trotz coached team that shuts out Tampa in two straight with their team defense. There are many other factors that went into that run that were far more important than Tom Wilson.

 

[tarapoto2006]

I don't think Tom Wilson can count that high. He probably doesn't even know how many that is.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Regarding Wilson's physicality, there's also the question of how much longer he's going to be able to sustain it.

Last year, he concussed Alexander Wennberg with no suspension. He also knocked Brian Dumolin out of one game with no suspension with a hit to the head. He was suspended for 3 games for concussing Zack-Aston Reese. He sent Jonathan Marchessault to the quiet room for some time with a late, blindside hit that he was not suspended for. Then, in the pre-season, he was suspended for 20 games for concussing Oskar Sundqvist. That suspension was later rescinded to 14 games, and effectively kept him out of 17 games. He received a penalty for an illegal check to the head of Brett Seney, but no further supplemental discipline.

It's tough to say how much longer he is going to continue to implement his physical brand of hockey and continue to concuss players before he gets hit with a major suspension. If he throws that same hit on Zach Aston-Reese in a playoff game tomorrow, you've got to think that given his history, he gets something similar to what Raffi Torres got for his playoff hits on Marian Hossa or Jarrett Stoll.

I would easily take Hertl over him regardless of all of this, but it's something to consider.

 

[HTFN]

Nope. I’ve seen it from a player like Raffi Torres who was pretty damn similar to Tom Wilson. I also see it from a player like Evander Kane who isn’t quite as physically dominant as Wilson but who still provides that to some degree and is also a much better player. There’s an impact for sure but it’s nowhere near one of the biggest impacts in a playoff run where Ovechkin has 15 goals, Kuznetsov has 32 points, Nicklas Backstrom puts up 23 points on the second line, Holtby posts a .922, and they do this all on a Trotz coached team that shuts out Tampa in two straight with their team defense. There are many other factors that went into that run that were far more important than Tom Wilson.

Yeesh. If this isn't typical. Nothing a million other Sharks couldn't kind of do, sort of, a little, so you're sure you can just extrapolate and you'll know what you're talking about. Ovechkin has 15 goals, Kuznetsov 32 points, and their linemate couldn't possibly be also one of the biggest factors in said Cup run because you just don't want him to be. You just know more than everyone who watched that whole playoff run, all of us Capitals fans who have seen every possible kind of third wheel for that line and know exactly why what he does is different. A key defensive component can't possibly be one of the biggest factors in the team defense of a Cup run this time around because we don't like the guy. He's not a tone-setting, lead-by-example player who does all the small things to facilitate the success of others or anything.


I mean, he's all over the place in this video. Constantly high impact.

 

[romao]

Hertl is better offensive player. But when you already have Ovechkin and Kuznetsov you don't really need Hertl. I prefer Wilson as a complementary first line player. He adds unique skill to that line. Much like Knuble never was an offensive dynamo on his own, but he was a perfect linemate for Ovechkin/Backstrom doing dirty work along the boards and could score 30 ugly goals in a season.
On the other hand, if I needed to start new franchise and had no offensive power, I would rather have Hertl. It depends on situation.

 

[Portable Mink]

It’s not hyperbole. I’m a caps fan who knows my team and watches every game. If as a group of Caps fans we say he was one of the key reasons we dominated teams physically and shut guys down and won the cup, then it’s true.

Saying names like Torres and Reaves in the same sentence as a key cup winning guy really diminishes your validity to talk about him.

 

[iCanada]

It’s not hyperbole. I’m a caps fan who knows my team and watches every game. If as a group of Caps fans we say he was one of the key reasons we dominated teams physically and shut guys down and won the cup, then it’s true.

Saying names like Torres and Reaves in the same sentence as a key cup winning guy really diminishes your validity to talk about him.

If it wasn't for Raffi Torres, the Oilers lose to the Sharks in Round 2 in 2006, hands down. Torres scored at a similair clip on that run to Wilson in the Caps cup run, with less assists, but he was playing third line checking minutes with Michael Peca and a rotating third wheel of barely NHL calibre players instead of Top line minutes with Ovi / Kuz. You realize Torres has nearly 150 goals in the NHL right? By the time he was Wilson's age right now, he had scored 20 goals twice already. Torres scored 27 goals in 2006. Keeping in mind the Oilers that year were a goal away from the Stanley Cup in a finals series in which their starting goaltender got injured in the first period of game number 1, and their backup got injured near the end of the first game.

Before Torres obliterated Michalek (in what would unanimously be considered dirty today... however Canadian media at the time basically just said Michalek needed to keep his head up and not admire his pass at the time), the Oilers were losing 1-0 in the series just getting their teeth kicked in and buried in game 2 with basically no signs of life. It was like mid way through the second period and the Oilers were being out shot like 15-2 or something stupid like that. After that hit, the Oilers outscored the sharks 18-6 in 4.5 games despite before that point being outscored 4-1 in 2.5 games prior.



No offense dude, but Torres is legit a great comparable to Wilson at this stage of their respective careers. The two's statlines at these ages are virtually identical at the pro level, although Wilson has no where near the pedigree that Torres had at the time. It is pure ignorance to say anything else.

I agree with you with respect to Reaves, he doens't belong there. But Torres certainly does. Hopefully Wilson puts his Hockey Career ahead of... extra curriculars... unlike Mr Torres.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Wilson did get the jump on Oleksiak, Wilson was skating forward and had the momentum , his hand grabbed Oleksiak's right sleeve first where he couldn't get off an effective shot and was twisted as a forward charging Wilson grabbed him... All's fair in love and war but the film doesn't lie, Wilson pearl harbor'd the guy.

Wilson is very cheap and dirty player.

Sure but Oleksiak was oblivious, what planet was he on that he didn't realize Wilson was coming? His GM is talking the entire time, he sees Wilson out there and I'm sure words had been exchanged, the onus is on Oleksiak to be ready and instead he's acting like he isn't even there. Deserved to get dummied and Rutherford should stfu and stay in his office.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Yikes.

Tom Wilson can’t hold Hertl’s jock strap.

Yikes, he's more valued in the NHL than Hertl and it's not even an argument.

 

[Scotty Pucks]

I'd throw the kitchen sink at Tommy Wilson - him in a Flyers sweater would be perfect.

But I knew the Caps would retain him. There's incredible value to a bulking force who can score at this level. Rare player.

 

[Yukon Cornelius Habs]

I’m going to hope you mean legitimately uninformed. Tom Wilson had nearly as many PTs this past Playoff as Torres had in his entire career. Oh Wilson also won a Cup. So.......Torres who?

Make it two legit LOL's!

Sheesh, you're more defensive than Rod Langway.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Yeesh. If this isn't typical. Nothing a million other Sharks couldn't kind of do, sort of, a little, so you're sure you can just extrapolate and you'll know what you're talking about. Ovechkin has 15 goals, Kuznetsov 32 points, and their linemate couldn't possibly be also one of the biggest factors in said Cup run because you just don't want him to be. You just know more than everyone who watched that whole playoff run, all of us Capitals fans who have seen every possible kind of third wheel for that line and know exactly why what he does is different. A key defensive component can't possibly be one of the biggest factors in the team defense of a Cup run this time around because we don't like the guy. He's not a tone-setting, lead-by-example player who does all the small things to facilitate the success of others or anything.


I mean, he's all over the place in this video. Constantly high impact.

Looks like an effective top-line F1 who has great chemistry with his linemates. Same thing I saw when I watched the playoffs.

Nowhere near as valuable as players like Kuznetsov/Ovechkin/Backstrom/Holtby/Carlson were to Washington, and nowhere near as valuable as a player like Hertl.

Hertl is better offensive player. But when you already have Ovechkin and Kuznetsov you don't really need Hertl. I prefer Wilson as a complementary first line player. He adds unique skill to that line. Much like Knuble never was an offensive dynamo on his own, but he was a perfect linemate for Ovechkin/Backstrom doing dirty work along the boards and could score 30 ugly goals in a season.
On the other hand, if I needed to start new franchise and had no offensive power, I would rather have Hertl. It depends on situation.

Except Hertl is also better at doing what you’re talking about - playing the role of the F1 - than Wilson is. He did it at the age of 22 with Joe Thornton and Joe Pavelski, and he was a better player then than Wilson will ever be. He was immensely vital to the playoff success of Thornton who had never been sucessful in his playoff career. But he isn’t a big Canadian who concussed multiple players in the playoffs, so those narratives were never written.

It’s not hyperbole. I’m a caps fan who knows my team and watches every game. If as a group of Caps fans we say he was one of the key reasons we dominated teams physically and shut guys down and won the cup, then it’s true.

Saying names like Torres and Reaves in the same sentence as a key cup winning guy really diminishes your validity to talk about him.

No, it’s actually not automatically true because a group of fans are led to believe it. The media pushes narratives and fans tend to eat it up. There are still Sharks fans who believe Micheal Haley deters the opposition from taking liberties.

Yikes, he's more valued in the NHL than Hertl and it's not even an argument.

You’re right, it’s not even an argument. It’s something completely made up that you’ve provided absolutely no evidence of.

 

[um]

The logic which would lead somebody to take Tom Wilson over Tomas Hertl is the exact same logic which would lead somebody to take Ryan Reaves over Tom Wilson.

In both cases, it would be a bad decision.

Reaves is probably a better fighter than Wilson and thats it... while Wilson is a better two way player than Hertl and much more physical.

Really I think the answer depends on the team, if you have enough offensive weapons and need 2 way and physical guys (like Washington) than Wilson makes more sense, If you could use another top line scorer than Hertl makes sense.

I would think most teams would take Hertl, but every team has different needs. Teams aren't built on finding the best player but finding what you need... without Wilson Washington would have a big hole that Hertl couldn't fill.

 

[shtorm2005]

I would think most teams would take Hertl, but every team has different needs.

I think teams that are out of playoffs race will take Hertl, teams that will fight for Cup will take Wilson.

 

[ALLCAPSALLTHETIME]

I think teams that are out of playoffs race will take Hertl, teams that will fight for Cup will take Wilson.

Wilson is definitely built for the playoffs.

Physicality matters in the second season.

 

[StephenPeat]

Make it two legit LOL's!

Sheesh, you're more defensive than Rod Langway.

I’ve been labeled Offensive sure, but Defensive? I guess that’s new. Perhaps I’ve turned a new leaf, but I wouldn’t count on it.

 

[StephenPeat]

The logic which would lead somebody to take Tom Wilson over Tomas Hertl is the exact same logic which would lead somebody to take Ryan Reaves over Tom Wilson.

In both cases, it would be a bad decision.

I’m going to guess that if I told you at the start of the Playoffs last year that I’d take the Caps to win the Cup over the Sharks you’d have also labeled that a “bad decision.” Guess who played their hand and came out on top by betting straight 43 Red?

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Reaves is probably a better fighter than Wilson and thats it... while Wilson is a better two way player than Hertl and much more physical.

Really I think the answer depends on the team, if you have enough offensive weapons and need 2 way and physical guys (like Washington) than Wilson makes more sense, If you could use another top line scorer than Hertl makes sense.

I would think most teams would take Hertl, but every team has different needs. Teams aren't built on finding the best player but finding what you need... without Wilson Washington would have a big hole that Hertl couldn't fill.

Tom Wilson is absolutely not a better two-way player than Hertl.

I’m going to guess that if I told you at the start of the Playoffs last year that I’d take the Caps to win the Cup over the Sharks you’d have also labeled that a “bad decision.” Guess who played their hand and came out on top by betting straight 43 Red?

No, I didn't think last year's Sharks team were very good at the time. I thought they could be a stealth contender if Joe Thornton returned and immediately started playing Hart Trophy hockey but I realized that was a long shot. I didn't think that highly of Washington either, but I would have picked them over San Jose.

At any rate, this has nothing to do with the discussion.

 

[StephenPeat]

Tom Wilson is absolutely not a better two-way player than Hertl.



No, I didn't think last year's Sharks team were very good at the time. I thought they could be a stealth contender if Joe Thornton returned and immediately started playing Hart Trophy hockey but I realized that was a long shot. I didn't think that highly of Washington either, but I would have picked them over San Jose.

At any rate, this has nothing to do with the discussion.

Most people wouldn’t have picked Washington. The emergence of Tom Wilson was absolutely an X-factor for the Caps and it’s absolutely germaine to the topic at hand.