Proposal: Toffoli for Kunin + L'Heureux + 2nd

[Armourboy]

Nashville's issue isn't with valuing Kunin too much its that a player like Taffoli is not who we would be going after if we were making a trade. We are getting younger while also trying to stay competitive, aka reload on the fly.

He's just not a player we would be after so there is no reason to make the trade. We already have our Vets to mentor the younger guys.

 

[Scoresberg]

There is zero reason for us to do this. We are in no position to mortgage our future for short-term gains.

We are not a Toffoli away from Cup contenders.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Toffoli isn’t returning 2 1st round picks. He’ll be dealt for 2 2nds or equal value

Two 2nd's is Toffoli's value as a deadline rental. Not with 3 years in term left or 2 full seasons after this year on a value contract. The original post value is not as far off in value as some are saying. What is the true value? You can never nail that down accurately. The question is if the Preds are interested in Toffoli and trading youth to get him which appears to be no.

Not a 1st line player yes but as a 2nd line player on a value contract, there is more value there than what posters are willing to admit on HF boards.

 

[Habs Halifax]

There is zero reason for us to do this. We are in no position to mortgage our future for short-term gains.

We are not a Toffoli away from Cup contenders.

This reply is something I can respect. You rather protect your youth cause Toffoli doesn't turn the needle in a way where you have confidence you can go on a run. However, maybe another team does see a fit. Value trades are hard to nail down and that's only one part of it. How many teams are in on the player (supply/demand) is another factor.

Others saying no and then going on to lower Toffoli's value contact for several years are out of line. Classic HF board though

 

[Habs Halifax]

Coleman went to a cap-strapped team making only 1.8M. Toffoli makes over double that. Not comparable.

Past comparables are a game for fools. You want another one? Shaw got a 2nd and a 3rd with 3 years left ($3.9M) and Toffoli is twice the player Shaw is at a similar cap hit. See my point? We can cherry pick all kinds of past deals where we feel teams overpaid, underpaid, or paid fair value. It varies a lot!

Toffoli is worth more than two 2nd's with the AAV and term he has left. Who trades a guy with 3 years left, is a proven top 6F and produces, and on a value contract for unproven futures? Habs would look like fools if we traded Toffoli and the futures busted which is far more likely than Toffoli slipping/declining like a Gomez for example.

 

[Patagonia]

Toffoli is nowhere near these prospects. Maybe if the player involved is Suzuki, but this is an embarrassing joke.

Lock this up.

 

[Stewie Griffin]

Past comparables are a game for fools. You want another one? Shaw got a 2nd and a 3rd with 3 years left ($3.9M) and Toffoli is twice the player Shaw is at a similar cap hit. See my point? We can cherry pick all kinds of past deals where we feel teams overpaid, underpaid, or paid fair value. It varies a lot!

Toffoli is worth more than two 2nd's with the AAV and term he has left. Who trades a guy with 3 years left, is a proven top 6F and produces, and on a value contract for unproven futures? Habs would look like fools if we traded Toffoli and the futures busted which is far more likely than Toffoli slipping/declining like a Gomez for example.

It was a habs fan that made the comparison to Coleman getting 2 firsts, I disagreed by comparing Toffoli and Coleman's contract situations and the situations of the teams that traded/would trade for them. As others have said, Toffoli won't get the package in the OP.
To counter your point sure Toffoli could be worth 2 2nds, but the OP proposed more than that in Kunin (probably worth a 2nd himself), L'Heureux (a 1st round pick last draft), and another 2nd on top of that.

 

[Habs Halifax]

It was a habs fan that made the comparison to Coleman getting 2 firsts, I disagreed by comparing Toffoli and Coleman's contract situations and the situations of the teams that traded/would trade for them. As others have said, Toffoli won't get the package in the OP.
To counter your point sure Toffoli could be worth 2 2nds, but the OP proposed more than that in Kunin (probably worth a 2nd himself), L'Heureux (a 1st round pick last draft), and another 2nd on top of that.

Both the Coleman and Shaw trade returns shows how value can change and a lot has to do with supply/demand and what teams are willing to pay. Trying to nail down actual value from cherry picked past trades is a game for fools.

Toffoli with 2 years plus the rest of this one is worth more than two 2nd's.
* I really don't have any interest in Kunin so if he is a deal breaker, keep him or trade him to another team for a 2nd if you can.
* L'Heureux (late 1st) is a grade B or grade B+ type prospect at this stage. I bet you feel like his a grade A prospect? Possible but he's not at that level yet IMO. I value him and I live in Halifax but he's not some sure shot top 6F asset at this stage.

L'Heureux and a 2nd for Toffoli is not a terrible gap in value. Adding Kunin on top makes you feel like you are getting ripped off cause you think all of Kunin, L'Heureux, and the 2nd turn into top of the line-up players. Like I said, you can keep Kunin.

 

[golffuul]

While I think Toffoli for Kunin + L'Heureux is probably a good starting point, with a negotiated add from both sides, I don't think Nashville wants to do this with an unsigned, and injured, Forsberg waiting to return. Granted Toffoli has a better valued contract, but there's no point in Nashville looking to trade for a winger when they can get their own player back and fill that void. Of course if Nashville is going to go into sell mode, and Forsberg is sent off...then maybe that's a visit that Nashville will want to look into, but not until then.

 

[beardawg]

* L'Heureux (late 1st) is a grade B or grade B+ type prospect at this stage. I bet you feel like his a grade A prospect? Possible but he's not at that level yet IMO. I value him and I live in Halifax but he's not some sure shot top 6F asset at this stage.

.

He was a projected top 10 pick who had a slightly off year (but good enough for the 1st round) and is absolutely tearing up the Q right now. He'll be their best prospect by the end of the season

 

[ponder]

Kunin is an NHL regular at this point, I'm not sure that is not panning out or comparable to McCarron and Tinordi.

You're not wrong on your assessment that Toffoli is on a decent contract and a steady scorer, but he is still just a 2nd line winger. 2nd line winger's don't get young roster player + recent 1st + 2nd.

This. I don’t think it’s MASSIVE overpayment, but it’s certainly overpayment. Also, the Preds are better than expected, but they aren’t real contenders, they’re not going to mortgage their future for Tyler Toffoli.

This is a classic bad trade proposal that is a no brainer for one team, and makes no sense for the other.

 

[Habs Halifax]

.

He was a projected top 10 pick who had a slightly off year (but good enough for the 1st round) and is absolutely tearing up the Q right now. He'll be their best prospect by the end of the season

I know the context around L'Heureux before and after draft. I watch a lot of Moosehead games. He has 17 pts in 12 games and it's very solid. Habs have two guys ripping up the Q as well (Kidney and Roy) and they were drafted in the 2nd and 5th rounds. Roy has 32 pts in 19 games and Kidney has 30 pts in 20 games.

What does this mean? Habs are not crowning either or Roy or Kidney as grade A prospects. All 3 of them are solid and have good development at age 18 but it's a long road! I bet you think L'Heureux is better cause he was drafted late in the 1st? Sorry, it don't work that way after the draft. Could end up that way but it's guess work on what they do from when they were drafted to when they turn pro and how their development goes after they turn pro.

Habs also have Farrell who has put up 12 pts with 5 goals in 8 games. Once again, we are not pumping him up as a grade A prospect. Poehling was also a mid ranking prospect who slipped to late 1st round. See my point?

I can respect the Preds saying they prefer to keep their futures. But the value is not far off.

* Toffoli (2.5 years on a value contract and a proven top 6F)
for
* Grade B+ prospect
* 2nd rounder
* 23 year old who projects as a bottom 6F.

 

[Gaud]

Okay. The Habs have no reason to move Toffoli. It’s not happening short of an overpayment.

At least until a rebuild is announced

 

[Gaud]

I know the context around L'Heureux before and after draft. I watch a lot of Moosehead games. He has 17 pts in 12 games and it's very solid. Habs have two guys ripping up the Q as well (Kidney and Roy) and they were drafted in the 2nd and 5th rounds. Roy has 32 pts in 19 games and Kidney has 30 pts in 20 games.

What does this mean? Habs are not crowning either or Roy or Kidney as grade A prospects. All 3 of them are solid and have good development at age 18 but it's a long road! I bet you think L'Heureux is better cause he was drafted late in the 1st? Sorry, it don't work that way after the draft. Could end up that way but it's guess work on what they do from when they were drafted to when they turn pro and how their development goes after they turn pro.

Habs also have Farrell who has put up 12 pts with 5 goals in 8 games. Once again, we are not pumping him up as a grade A prospect. Poehling was also a mid ranking prospect who slipped to late 1st round. See my point?

I can respect the Preds saying they prefer to keep their futures. But the value is not far off.

* Toffoli (2.5 years on a value contract and a proven top 6F)
for
* Grade B+ prospect
* 2nd rounder
* 23 year old who projects as a bottom 6F.

I agree that the value makes me look at this twice, but I'd much rather condense into one or two pieces. Does this whole package equal a first? is there perhaps one grade A prospect that is worth Toffoli?

 

[Baksfamous112]

Toffoli isn’t returning 2 1st round picks. He’ll be dealt for 2 2nds or equal value[/QUOTE]

what? Toffoli would absolutely get at the very least a 1st ++

 

[Habs Halifax]

I agree that the value makes me look at this twice, but I'd much rather condense into one or two pieces. Does this whole package equal a first? is there perhaps one grade A prospect that is worth Toffoli?

I'm not sure. This is about the Habs not desperate to trade Toffoli but we are open to trading a lot of players if we can get some futures that helps our rebuild. If we get low offers that don't really help us, I think we don't move him. So the narrative is if you want a 2nd line winger who performs well and is on a value contract, we will consider moving him if we get futures we value. If not, we are not going to liquidate him in trade value just to move him.

 

[Gaud]

I'm not sure. This is about the Habs not desperate to trade Toffoli but we are open to trading a lot of players if we can get some futures that helps our rebuild. If we get low offers that don't really help us, I think we don't move him. So the narrative is if you want a 2nd line winger who performs well and is on a value contract, we will consider moving him if we get futures we value. If not, we are not going to liquidate him in trade value just to move him.

Agreed, i think the totality of the value that was presented was ok, but it is bsically one bottom 6 roster player and 2 futures with unknown potential to make the top 9. I would also hold unless we can get a future with a reasonable chance of breaking top 6 (or top 4 if D)

 

[Bouboumaster]

No 1st, no Toffoli

 

[Gaud]

does it even make sense for Nash to be talking about futures in a situation where montreal is trying to rebuild? looks like nash will be fighting to make the playoffs; does Toffoli get them there and make the trade worthwile for them?

 

[samsagat]

Kunin-Granlund-Duchene
Forsberg-Johansen-Tolvanen

Is Nashville top-6.

Kunin has 6 pts in 19 games.
Tolvanen 5 in 19.

So getting offense in their top-6 is definitively a need.

They have a good defensive group, a solid center line, good goaltending.

Nashville's right there, in a battle for a playoff spot.

I know the HFboard narrative: future/future/future...

But when it comes to real hockey teams, there's other factors to be taken into account by management.

NHL hockey opps usually want to seize opportunity to get into the playoffs when it's right there.

Even more when the teams core all have between 27 (Forsberg) and 31 (Josi) (Duchene 30, Johansen 29, Granlund 29, Ekholm 31)... Nashville isn't in a position to rebuild, they have to win as soon as possible.

Nashville already have a good prospect pool. Sacrificing a former late 1st (and say a 2nd, you can keep Kunin if he's the deal breaker) to better their top-6 for 2 1/2 more years, I think it's a fair price to pay.

Toffoli ain't no rental player, he's signed until 2024 for a reasonnable price.

Maybe I'm wrong, but my rationale certainly isn't as bad as some want to pretend.

 

[beardawg]

Kunin-Granlund-Duchene
Forsberg-Johansen-Tolvanen

Is Nashville top-6.

Kunin has 6 pts in 19 games.
Tolvanen 5 in 19.

So getting offense in their top-6 is definitively a need.

They have a good defensive group, a solid center line, good goaltending.

Nashville's right there, in a battle for a playoff spot.

I know the HFboard narrative: future/future/future...

But when it comes to real hockey teams, there's other factors to be taken into account by management.

NHL hockey opps usually want to seize opportunity to get into the playoffs when it's right there.

Even more when the teams core all have between 27 (Forsberg) and 31 (Josi) (Duchene 30, Johansen 29, Granlund 29, Ekholm 31)... Nashville isn't in a position to rebuild, they have to win as soon as possible.

Nashville already have a good prospect pool. Sacrificing a former late 1st (and say a 2nd, you can keep Kunin if he's the deal breaker) to better their top-6 for 2 1/2 more years, I think it's a fair price to pay.

Toffoli ain't no rental player, he's signed until 2024 for a reasonnable price.

Maybe I'm wrong, but my rationale certainly isn't as bad as some want to pretend.

You couldn't be further from the truth man. They're overachieving right now. No one saw the Duchene/Granlund/Johansen resurgence. They aren't a Toffoli away from winning the Stanley Cup. They're probably trading the best goal scorer they've ever had (Forsberg) by the deadline.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

The Preds have no use for Toffoli. Even if you somehow managed to shave the ask down to a "fair" value in a vacuum (which this offer is nowhere near close to), then the Preds would STILL not be the team to trade for Toffoli. Some other team trying to contend looking for some additional secondary scoring might.

Preds might give up a 2nd just to take advantage of a "bargain". But that's our max offer. You'll get FAR better value elsewhere on the open market.

 

[King'sPawn]

LA got less for Toffoli when he had more value.

 

[Soundgarden]

Kunin-Granlund-Duchene
Forsberg-Johansen-Tolvanen

Is Nashville top-6.

Kunin has 6 pts in 19 games.
Tolvanen 5 in 19.

So getting offense in their top-6 is definitively a need.

They have a good defensive group, a solid center line, good goaltending.

Nashville's right there, in a battle for a playoff spot.

I know the HFboard narrative: future/future/future...

But when it comes to real hockey teams, there's other factors to be taken into account by management.

NHL hockey opps usually want to seize opportunity to get into the playoffs when it's right there.

Even more when the teams core all have between 27 (Forsberg) and 31 (Josi) (Duchene 30, Johansen 29, Granlund 29, Ekholm 31)... Nashville isn't in a position to rebuild, they have to win as soon as possible.

Nashville already have a good prospect pool. Sacrificing a former late 1st (and say a 2nd, you can keep Kunin if he's the deal breaker) to better their top-6 for 2 1/2 more years, I think it's a fair price to pay.

Toffoli ain't no rental player, he's signed until 2024 for a reasonnable price.

Maybe I'm wrong, but my rationale certainly isn't as bad as some want to pretend.

We're getting younger and already don't have enough room for Afanysev or Tomasino in the top 6 right now. Toffoli doesn't make sense. Plus if we do move Forsberg at the deadline it'll likely be for a 1st + a prospect, why would we deal futures for Toffoli only to trade Forsberg for more futures?

 

[AdmiralsFan24]

Maybe I'm wrong, but my rationale certainly isn't as bad as some want to pretend.

You want a bubble team at best to deplete their already thin farm system for a winger that has 12 points in 21 games. Your rationale is actually terrible.