Proposal: Toffoli for Kunin + L'Heureux + 2nd

[samsagat]

Anyway don't see Nashville wanting to load up.

Maybe not loading up.

But trying to secure a playoff spot while paying a not so high price (take away Kunin from the trade) for a productive RH winger (that can play both wings), still signed for 2 more seasons at a reasonnable price?

Maybe, maybe not...

But I personally still think the offer and my rationale weren't that far off...



P.S.: And I think HFboard logic, when it comes to players value, puts too much emphasis on classical stats.

Actual NHL GMs seems to value much more intangibles like character, playoff experience, leadership skills, reputation, etc...

Guys like Taylor Hall don't get that much value but guys like Coleman, Foligno, Savard, do...

Toffoli grew up (hockey wise) in L-A on a winning team. He won a SC, he had a few down years 2-3 years from now but came back to his normal self lately.

We'll see, but if MB gets fired, I think the habs will face a serious roster shake up and Toffoli will probably get traded.

Will see then if I was that far off in terms of value...

 

[triggrman]

Maybe not loading up.

But trying to secure a playoff spot while paying a not so high price (take away Kunin from the trade) for a productive RH winger (that can play both wing), still signed for 2 more seasons at a reasonnable price?

Maybe, maybe not...

But I personally still think the offer and my rationale weren't that far off...



P.S.: And I think HFboard logic, when it comes to players value, puts too much emphasis on classical stats.

Actual NHL GMs seems to value much more intangibles like character, playoff experience, leadership skills, reputation, etc...

Guys like Taylor Hall don't get that much value but guys like Coleman, Foligno, Savard, do...

Toffoli grew up in L-A on a winning team. He won a SC, he had a few down years 2-3 years from now but came back to his normal self lately.

We'll see, but if MB gets fired, I think the habs will face a serious roster shake up and Toffoli will probably get traded.

Will see then if I was that far off in terms of value...

I dont' know if you were off on value or not, but Nashville traded Arvidsson and Ellis to get younger, why would they want to get older now? They've openly said they're going with the young guys and so far, it looks okay, especially Jeanot and Tomasino. I don't see them reversing course now, in fact, I'd bet on Afanysev will likely be called up sometime this season, Glass too.

 

[SpeakingOfTheDevils]

Toffoli isn’t getting moved.

Also, Blake Coleman says hello.

The Coleman situation isn’t comparable whatsoever.

 

[beardawg]

Neutral like thinking habs fans are the ones not knowing hockey on HFboard?

Yeah, I've seen this kind of arrogant complacent ''neutrality'' a lot here...

Toffoli ain't no Taylor Hall or Evander Kane, he has a good reputation and a good hockey career/pedegree.

If he would fetch a low 1st and a prospect at the trade deadline (while being an UFA), I don't think he's worth less than that having a good and not too long contract.

If it's Luke ''freeking'' Kunin that moves the needle from being a fair trade to being an ''awfull'' one, then take him away, I don't give a shit.

I would take the 2.3 mil cap space anyday instead. For me he has not a big value...

You seemed to be raving about his potential in the OP. Hard turn around on your opinion once Preds fans spoke up. Why include him to begin with if you'd rather have the cap AND he has no value?

Just own up and admit you had no idea what you were talking about. It's OK

 

[triggrman]

You seemed to be raving about his potential in the OP. Hard turn around on your opinion once Preds fans spoke up. Why include him to begin with if you'd rather have the cap AND he has no value?

Just own up and admit you had no idea what you were talking about. It's OK

I mean I can't tell why he wants this trade anyway. Kunin is a career 3rd liner and L'Heureux was a wasted pick...

 

[Big Empty]

The Coleman situation isn’t comparable whatsoever.

Okay. The Habs have no reason to move Toffoli. It’s not happening short of an overpayment.

 

[samsagat]

You seemed to be raving about his potential in the OP. Hard turn around on your opinion once Preds fans spoke up. Why include him to begin with if you'd rather have the cap AND he has no value?

Just own up and admit you had no idea what you were talking about. It's OK

I was not raving about his potential.

There's a difference between raving about him and saying there was still hope he can get a notch up in his game at almost 24.
A risk I would've be willing to take at 2.3 mil, but if he's so valued by Nashville fans, then f*** it!!

Every fan base overvalue their own or look down on other teams young(ish in this exemple) players.

I'm sure that if Kulin was a habs player, everybody would say he has no value.

Does Poehling have value for you? Nah...

 

[Stewie Griffin]

He averages 24g per 82 games over his nhl career. Outlier or not he's been very good for over 2 years straight with 3 different teams recently, why should we ignore it?

Do you think his contract his bad for his production ?

Why wouldn't he compare to Coleman in terms of value?

How many goals did Coleman average before the trade? Wasn't his last season in Jersey an outlier too?

All in all, I'm not exactly sure why you're trying to to doscredit Toffoli and his potential value. He's been great lately and somehow that should play against him or not count at all according to you...

I think he's got a good contract for what he brings, I just don't think he's what a team like Nashville should make a move for. The Lightning were a team full of stars right up against the cap and got a player with 2 years left at 1.8...I don't see that as a comparable for Toffoli at his cap hit for a middling team like Nasvhille.

 

[HugeInTheShire]

People trying to justify this kind of return because Blake Coleman got a good return are more than a little off base, first off Coleman is a center not a winger, he puts up decent numbers despite being a exceptional defender. He was also making half the money so he was available to way more teams without retention. There aren't a lot of teams that can add Toffoli even though his contract is good, they would have to retain or take salary back which affects the return.

MTL might get a decent haul for Toffoli but Coleman isn't comparable at all

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

Ignoring the value of the proposal, this is the total opposite of where the Preds are currently heading in terms of roster building. Poile has been gradually turning over the age of the roster and trading off contracts similar to Toffoli's, he's not going to waste younger assets to do the reverse.

 

[jfhabs]

People trying to justify this kind of return because Blake Coleman got a good return are more than a little off base, first off Coleman is a center not a winger, he puts up decent numbers despite being a exceptional defender. He was also making half the money so he was available to way more teams without retention. There aren't a lot of teams that can add Toffoli even though his contract is good, they would have to retain or take salary back which affects the return.

MTL might get a decent haul for Toffoli but Coleman isn't comparable at all

He played wing in Tampa tho.
He also got the 20th overall + a 1st round prospect in Foote. No one is asking for 2 x 1sts for Toffoli unless you consider Kunin worth a first (if it's the case, then maybe yes, Toffoli is worth 2 x 1st in a vacuum ). There's a gap between 20th overall and 27th were L'Heureux was drafted.
However I do agree this trade isn't what Nashville should be looking for.
I also think the habs could do better with a mid-late first then L'Heureux, but that's a very subjective opinion.
Many teams could acquire Toffoli at the TDL without money retained. With the COVID and injuries, most team will have LTIR savings.

 

[jfhabs]

That is the main point. Poile traded back into the 1st round to draft this guy. He’s not going to turn around and trade a few months later unless it was an offer he couldn’t refuse and this isn’t it at all

Fair point, my only issue was some of your fellow Nash fans (and outside fanbases who like to slide in every habs proposals for obvious reasons ) saying this proposal was the equivalent of 2 x 1st + 2nd which IMO is a very biased point of view.

 

[jfhabs]

Maybe not loading up.

But trying to secure a playoff spot while paying a not so high price (take away Kunin from the trade) for a productive RH winger (that can play both wings), still signed for 2 more seasons at a reasonnable price?

Maybe, maybe not...

But I personally still think the offer and my rationale weren't that far off...



P.S.: And I think HFboard logic, when it comes to players value, puts too much emphasis on classical stats.

Actual NHL GMs seems to value much more intangibles like character, playoff experience, leadership skills, reputation, etc...

Guys like Taylor Hall don't get that much value but guys like Coleman, Foligno, Savard, do...

Toffoli grew up (hockey wise) in L-A on a winning team. He won a SC, he had a few down years 2-3 years from now but came back to his normal self lately.

We'll see, but if MB gets fired, I think the habs will face a serious roster shake up and Toffoli will probably get traded.

Will see then if I was that far off in terms of value...

I don't think it was that far off value wise, but probably didn't consider Nashville brass is probably higher on L'Heureux and Kunin. As some of their fans mentioned, Poile moved to get his hands on L'Heureux less then 6 months ago. As far as Kunin, they seem very high on him for some reason(some, way to high ). I always liked him too, but he needs to show something quick because right now I don't see much more potential anymore. Overall, probably not the best trading partners.

 

[jfhabs]

I think he's got a good contract for what he brings, I just don't think he's what a team like Nashville should make a move for. The Lightning were a team full of stars right up against the cap and got a player with 2 years left at 1.8...I don't see that as a comparable for Toffoli at his cap hit for a middling team like Nasvhille.

Maybe not to Nashville (don't think they should anyway), but a lot of teams will be able to acquire Toffoli with his cheap contract. Don't think that would bring down his value a ton (going from 2x1st vs 2x2nd as some suggest) and the Habs could very well retain if someone comes up with an offer similar to what NJ got.

 

[GeauxPreds1]

Deleted

 

[GeauxPreds1]

Fair point, my only issue was some of your fellow Nash fans (and outside fanbases who like to slide in every habs proposals for obvious reasons ) saying this proposal was the equivalent of 2 x 1st + 2nd which IMO is a very biased point of view.

I’m not that high on kunin either. I wasn’t thrilled when we traded for him. I don’t think he’s worth a first rounder but I know some people do and that’s their prerogative. Just like people don’t think L'Heureux is worthy of a first round pick but I do. I think we got a steal if the guy matures and develops accordingly, he has all the tools to be a dominant hockey player. He has the attitude and edge that you’d like to see players have in competitive sports. But you never know. You can draft a franchise goalie in the eighth round (Rinne) or draft a fourth line player in the first round (Watson) or better yet a bust that’s what I love about hockey you just never know You just have to wait and see. That’s why I wouldn’t put L'Heureux in any proposal unless it’s an offer you can’t refuse

 

[HugeInTheShire]

He played wing in Tampa tho.
He also got the 20th overall + a 1st round prospect in Foote. No one is asking for 2 x 1sts for Toffoli unless you consider Kunin worth a first (if it's the case, then maybe yes, Toffoli is worth 2 x 1st in a vacuum ). There's a gap between 20th overall and 27th were L'Heureux was drafted.
However I do agree this trade isn't what Nashville should be looking for.
I also think the habs could do better with a mid-late first then L'Heureux, but that's a very subjective opinion.
Many teams could acquire Toffoli at the TDL without money retained. With the COVID and injuries, most team will have LTIR savings.

Kunin plus a 2nd could be considered a 1st, and L'Heureux is a 1st so the OP is basically asking for 2 firsts.
As for Coleman, he played wing in TB but he also filled in at center when needed and on the PK not saying that Toffoli wouldn't get a decent return, I'm just saying Coleman is a more versatile player making half the money, so it was a lot easier to drive up the price

 

[jfhabs]

Kunin plus a 2nd could be considered a 1st, and L'Heureux is a 1st so the OP is basically asking for 2 firsts.
As for Coleman, he played wing in TB but he also filled in at center when needed and on the PK not saying that Toffoli wouldn't get a decent return, I'm just saying Coleman is a more versatile player making half the money, so it was a lot easier to drive up the price

Ok, I get what you're saying.
But, to me Kunin + 2nd doesn't = a 1st. Unless your 2nd is 35th and your first is 25+ which wouldn't be the case in this scenario.
Toffoli plays PK too, for a slow skater he's surprisingly efficient

 

[HugeInTheShire]

Ok, I get what you're saying.
But, to me Kunin + 2nd doesn't = a 1st. Unless your 2nd is 35th and your first is 25+ which wouldn't be the case in this scenario.
Toffoli plays PK too, for a slow skater he's surprisingly efficient

Ya for me it wasn't so much about the package because they could very well get this sort of package for him, it was about expecting to get it because Coleman did.

 

[Flgatorguy87]

Kunin isn't a sticking point for me in this deal. I like Toffoli. I don't really care for L'Heureux as a prospect. All those things would make you think I like the deal, but I just don't see us in a position to move assets for an older winger. I don't see us as that close to want to spend assets for any type of contending window. I honestly think we have a good chance of trading Forsberg at this stage and if that is the case I really don't think we are buying any type of production. I think we are still in the grow from within phase of our "re-tool" where we sort out assets and current roster players to see who is worth building around.

 

[Mrfenn92]

Easy no for Nashville

 

[Dr Quincy]

So you want:

- Kunin 23yr old 1st rnd pick C/RW 2.3M/RFA 2022
- L`Heureux 1st rnd pick 2021
- 2nd 2022

for

- Toffoli 29yr old 4.25M/UFA 2024

Dont you think thats a bit much for Toffoli? More like Kunin + 3rd would be his value, but you want 2x 1st rounders + 2nd?

The deal is definitely unbalanced in MTL's favor and there really is no reason why NAS or any other team would give that much for Toffoli.

But one quibble....
Kunin isn't "a 1st rd pick". He's Luke Kunin. That's his value. His value isn't the pick used to get him 5 years ago.

 

[herzausstein]

Nashville is retooling. Nothing in this proposal is a retooling move. Easy pass from Nashville

 

[BobClarkesfrontteeth]

Not sure how Taffoli's value goes from Tyler Madden (value maybe is a 2nd rnd pick) and a 2nd round pick. To 2 1sts and Kunin???? He is friggen Tyler Taffoli. Nice player but that's it.

2 1sts and Kunin gets you pretty close to getting JT Miller who has been a point per game player for 2 plus years, and has shorter term on his contract.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

I've put Kunin in the trade because he has a 2.3 mil cap hit while not producing much, even if he's playing on the Nashville top-6...

Pretending he has 1st rd value is delusional. He's worth a low 2nd rd at best.

And I see people throwing '' Toffoli's not worth two 1st rd pick'', but there's a big difference between a high 1st rd pick, a middle one or a late one.

L'Heureux was drafted 27th overall, this is almost the 2nd rd...

Toffoli, with his pedigree and contract, is certainly worth a low 1st rd pick, an ex 1st rd in 2016 that is now an average 3rd liner and a middle 2nd rd pick...

Funny you keep using words like that when everyone else is telling you you're wrong