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Prospect Info: Timothy Liljegren

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DarkKnight said:
I can't think of anything more pathetic than some Leafs "fans" who are actually tearing down a rookie D man who's just absolutely blown the doors of his development curve this year in Sandin because somehow his success threatens Lil. Good grief.
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They're both fantastic, they're both exceeding expectations, and they play different positons.
 
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RoadWarrior said:
Sandin was tossing pucks around like hand grenades for the entire checkers series. He looked out of gas and the checkers were targeting him.
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Again, not true. He was fantastic in games, 1, 2, 4 and 6 of the Charlotte series. Also, great for the 7 games previous vs. Rochester and Cleveland.
 
RoadWarrior said:
Sandin was -8 in the series with the checkers. In fact he wasn’t a plus player in any game.
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Ok, and? Not sure what this has to do with anything? He was -7 between games 3 and 5 alone.

2 off games does not = turn over machine in the playoffs.

He was a collective +5 over the other 11 playoff games, while playing as much as 25+ minutes a night.

Jesus.
 
Isaac Nootin said:
Ok, and? Not sure what this has to do with anything? He was -7 between games 3 and 5 alone.

2 off games does not = turn over machine in the playoffs.

He was a collective +5 over the other 11 playoff games, while playing as much as 25+ minutes a night.

Jesus.
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So basically you’re saying that as long as you don’t count all his bad games he was awesome in the playoffs!

Hey if you don’t count Jake Gardiner’s shifts against the Bruins in game 7 he was awesome too.

That’s a neat trick. Let’s start judging all performances based on a small sample size of highlights. Wow. Everyone is awesome now!
 
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RoadWarrior said:
So basically you’re saying that as long as you don’t count all his bad games he was awesome in the playoffs!

Hey if you don’t count Jake Gardiner’s shifts against the Bruins in game 7 he was awesome too.

That’s a neat trick. Let’s start judging all performances based on a small sample size of highlights. Wow. Everyone is awesome now!
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Says let's not judge on small sample sizes, then proceeds to judge Sandin on 2 games, and Gardiners game 7. Neat trick forsure.

You never answered about Sandins other 11 games of the playoffs where he was great. What are your thoughts on that?
 
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Isaac Nootin said:
Says let's not judge on small sample sizes, then proceeds to judge Sandin on 2 games, and Gardiners game 7. Neat trick forsure.

You never answered about Sandins other 11 games of the playoffs where he was great. What are your thoughts on that?
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The answer is remarkably simply. The -8 for the series was reflective of his play overall against the checkers. The impotent PP which he quarterbacked was a disaster as well.

I give the checkers credit. They targeted Sandin and Bracco throughout the series and the Marlies failed to adapt.

Kaskisuo bailed out Sandin time after time but it was obvious he just couldn’t handle the forechecking when fatigued.

Sandin is a kid so he’ll learn and improve from his mistakes next season but he didn’t pass the test in the playoffs and it’s clear he’s not ready for the NHL. Nothing to be ashamed of for a 19 yr old.

And before you ask about “the other games” I will simply say that Sandin excelled against light opposition that he wouldn’t be seeing in the NHL. The checkers are the closest to an NHL style lineup and he couldn’t handle it.

Rosen and Liljegren are more physically developed and ready for a larger role in the NHL.
 
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RoadWarrior said:
The answer is remarkably simply. The -8 for the series was reflective of his play overall against the checkers. The impotent PP which he quarterbacked was a disaster as well.

I give the checkers credit. They targeted Sandin and Bracco throughout the series and the Marlies failed to adapt.

Kaskisuo bailed out Sandin time after time but it was obvious he just couldn’t handle the forechecking when fatigued.

Sandin is a kid so he’ll learn and improve from his mistakes next season but he didn’t pass the test in the playoffs and it’s clear he’s not ready for the NHL. Nothing to be ashamed of for a 19 yr old.

Rosen and Liljegren are ready for a larger role.
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Once again you only address Charlotte, where Sandin was still great for long stretches.

What about the Rochester series? Or the Cleveland series?
 
RoadWarrior said:
The answer is remarkably simply. The -8 for the series was reflective of his play overall against the checkers. The impotent PP which he quarterbacked was a disaster as well.

I give the checkers credit. They targeted Sandin and Bracco throughout the series and the Marlies failed to adapt.

Kaskisuo bailed out Sandin time after time but it was obvious he just couldn’t handle the forechecking when fatigued.

Sandin is a kid so he’ll learn and improve from his mistakes next season but he didn’t pass the test in the playoffs and it’s clear he’s not ready for the NHL. Nothing to be ashamed of for a 19 yr old.

And before you ask about “the other games” I will simply say that Sandin excelled against light opposition that he wouldn’t be seeing in the NHL. The checkers are the closest to an NHL style lineup and he couldn’t handle it.

Rosen and Liljegren are more physically developed and ready for a larger role in the NHL.
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Jeez, you're right. We can't play him 25 minutes a night against top competition in the NHL immediately, better not play him at all then. Sheltering and controlled deployment doesn't exist.

Here we were ready to replace Rielly on the first PP with Sandin after 2 good series, but I guess the next series showed that he's actually not a PP quarterback.

The kid is 10-15 pounds away from playing Dermott minutes comfortably.
 
Isaac Nootin said:
With Liljegren/Rosen most likely starting the season in the NHL, there's more than enough PP time to go around for Sandin/Hollowell. Sandin PP1, Hollowell PP2.

No need to scale back, especially since Sandin proved he can handle both in his 18/19 year old rookie season.

@biotk would have a better idea on Sandins PK stats/time.
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I really don't have a great idea about it. I can say this though: I was at the 5 home games in the second and third series. I was mainly concentrating on Liljegren and Sandin. I was expecting Liljegren to be getting more PK time, but I feel that Sandin easily played more. Now perhaps that was due to the other option for each. LoVerde appeared to be Keefe's go to RHD on the PK. But for LHD Keefe appeared to greatly prefer Sandin over Borgman for the PK. When Rosen was in the lineup he would take some PK time.

The Marlies were only scored against 5 times while PKing during the playoffs. LoVerde was on for all 5, with Rosen and Sandin also being on for 2 each and Borgman for 1. The Marlies did score a short handed goal and for that Liljegren and Borgman were on. The short-handed goal was scored late in the PK. 4 of the 5 goals scored against the Marlies when they were killing happened early in the PK (the other being LoVerde and Borgman at the 1:28 mark). In the games I watched Liljegren was generally out late during the PK (say the last 40 seconds) while Sandin generally started the PK. The statistics appear to support that throughout the playoffs LoVerde was on the PK1 with either Sandin or Rosen and Liljegren was on the PK2 generally with Borgman.
 
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biotk said:
I really don't have a great idea about it. I can say this though: I was at the 5 home games in the second and third series. I was mainly concentrating on Liljegren and Sandin. I was expecting Liljegren to be getting more PK time, but I feel that Sandin easily played more. Now perhaps that was due to the other option for each. LoVerde appeared to be Keefe's go to RHD on the PK. But for LHD Keefe appeared to greatly prefer Sandin over Borgman for the PK. When Rosen was in the lineup he would take some PK time.

The Marlies were only scored against 5 times while PKing during the playoffs. LoVerde was on for all 5, with Rosen and Sandin also being on for 2 each and Borgman for 1. The Marlies did score a short handed goal and for that Liljegren and Borgman were on. The short-handed goal was scored late in the PK. 4 of the 5 goals scored against the Marlies when they were killing happened early in the PK (the other being LoVerde and Borgman at the 1:28 mark). In the games I watched Liljegren was generally out late during the PK (say the last 40 seconds) while Sandin generally started the PK. The statistics appear to support that throughout the playoffs LoVerde was on the PK1 with either Sandin or Rosen and Liljegren was on the PK2 generally with Borgman.
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Excellent post, thank you.
 
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There has been some talk about Sandin's poor play in the third round and the -8 within that round.

As best as I can break down (note if the player was on for an EN goal either for or against I only count it as an EN goal and not also for either ES, PP or SH) - During the first two rounds in 7 games for Sandin
ES: 8 GF 4 GA
PP: 7 GF 0 GA
SH: 0 GF 1 GA
EN: 0 GF 0 GA

During the last round in 6 games for Sandin:
ES: 2 GF 4 GA
PP: 3 GF 4 GA
SH: 0 GF 1 GA
EN: 0 GF 2 GA

During the first 2 rounds in 7 games for Liljegren:
ES: 3 GF 3 GA
PP: 1 GF 0 GA
SH: 1 GF 0 GA
EN: 2 GF 0 GA

During the last round in 6 games for Sandin:
ES: 4 GF 7 GA
PP: 0 GF 0 GA
SH: 0 GF 0 GA
EN: 0 GF 1 GA

People can take from that what they will, but Sandin was only a -2 at 5v5 during that round which was not bad (if I remember correctly the team altogether was -4).
 
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biotk said:
There has been some talk about Sandin's poor play in the third round and the -8 within that round.

As best as I can break down (note if the player was on for an EN goal either for or against I only count it as an EN goal and not also for either ES, PP or SH) - During the first two rounds in 7 games for Sandin
ES: 8 GF 4 GA
PP: 7 GF 0 GA
SH: 0 GF 1 GA
EN: 0 GF 0 GA

During the last round in 6 games for Sandin:
ES: 2 GF 4 GA
PP: 3 GF 4 GA
SH: 0 GF 1 GA
EN: 0 GF 2 GA

During the first 2 rounds in 7 games for Liljegren:
ES: 3 GF 3 GA
PP: 1 GF 0 GA
SH: 1 GF 0 GA
EN: 2 GF 0 GA

During the last round in 6 games for Sandin:
ES: 4 GF 7 GA
PP: 0 GF 0 GA
SH: 0 GF 0 GA
EN: 0 GF 1 GA

People can take from that what they will, but Sandin was only a -2 at 5v5 during that round which was not bad (if I remember correctly the team altogether was -4).
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Sandin was -8 in the series against the checkers. Some of those minuses were probably short handed goals against.

I’m not saying Sandin isn’t a great prospect because he is very intelligent but people shouldn’t be expecting miracles from a 19 yr old player next season because he isn’t ready for the NHL. He needs to get stronger and cut down on his turnovers before he will get a serious look by Dubas.
 
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biotk said:
4 of those minuses were short handed goals against. A fluke that will never happen again. 2 of those minuses were EN goals against.
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Except that Sandin was targeted by the Checkers and turned the puck over repeatedly. Not all of those turnovers resulted in goals against but it was obvious that he couldn’t handle the bigger forwards and made some panic plays throwing the puck into open areas.

If the AHL kept track of giveaways he would have easily led the team.

Some people get this idea that I’m bashing him as a prospect but forget that he was playing in the minors this year as an 18 year old kid against full grown men.

Most of his struggles in the Checkers series were completely understandable and I don’t think it will impact him in the long term. He was overused this year because of injuries and call ups.

However it clearly indicates that he’s not ready for bigger and faster forwards in the NHL quite yet. He needs to get stronger and more physically fit.

Rosen and Liljegren will likely be the leafs third pairing to start the season giving Sandin an opportunity to start next season as the clear number 1 defenseman on the Marlies.
 
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RoadWarrior said:
Some people get this idea that I’m bashing him as a prospect but forget that he was playing in the minors this year as an 18 year old kid against full grown men.
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Calling an 18/19 year old a turn over machine is pretty much bashing a prospect. Especially when for 90% of the playoffs he was great.
 
mavis said:
Careful, thinking Liljegren won’t be a top-4 dman at some point next year (so ~20mins in NHL) gets you ignored by some posters around here. Because if he doesn’t that would then hit 3yrs since his draft to be a top 4 NHL dman, and saying it would take 4-5 years to be top-4 after the draft is unfathomable and troll-worthy.
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I think we’ve found “Maple Leafs” / Vince Vega’s alt account.
 
Morgs said:
And honestly, he's already passed the main test when it comes to prospects before bringing them up:

Make sure they're dominant for an extended stretch.
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He hasn’t done that yet, though.

A 10 game scoreless streak due to his ankle sprains took away from his regular season success for sure.

But having a dozen good playoff games doesn’t equal extended dominance quite yet.
 
TheGoldenJet said:
He hasn’t done that yet, though.

A 10 game scoreless streak due to his ankle sprains took away from his regular season success for sure.

But having a dozen good playoff games doesn’t equal extended dominance quite yet.
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He was arguably playing his best hockey of the year before going down with the ankle sprain. He then came back from injury and after 3-5 games it looked like he didn't miss a step. Guy was dominant basically from the beginning of November-Injury, Mid-to-late February-May.

Don't look at points, they're reaaaallly a bad measure for defenseman.
 
Morgs said:
He was arguably playing his best hockey of the year before going down with the ankle sprain. He then came back from injury and after 3-5 games it looked like he didn't miss a step. Guy was dominant basically from the beginning of November-Injury, Mid-to-late February-May.

Don't look at points, they're reaaaallly a bad measure for defenseman.
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Yet, that's exactly how "great" d-men are judged, awarded the Norris, and given the biggest contracts. That isn't me commenting on Lily, or anyone in particular, but points ARE used to measure D-men.

Look, I'm a big fan of what Fred the Goat brings to the game, we score more, than we have scored against us, when he's on the ice... to me, that's the important thing. I don't know if such stats are available for the AHL, but to have a guy like Lily, if his game translates to the NHL, into a great pucking moving, strong defensive positioning... that would be incredibly valuable on the Right side too. We've got other guys who can bring the offensive stats.
 
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