Tribute Timothy Liljegren part 2

[thusk]

Keefe has been on the job in the NHL since only 2020 and we've seen him turn Holl into a middle pair guy from a press box guy and some okay, inconsistent results with Sandin and Liljegren and poor results with Dermott. All three of those guys were high picks.

So where would the belief come from that he can develop impact NHL defensemen or knows how to get more out of a young defenseman? Keefe's young in the coaching game himself. It's not a stretch to say he's probably got a lot to learn on the developmental side.

But d taking time to develop... unstead of some elite young player, big part of young dmen will start to look good around 23-24-25 and playing at high level around 25-26-27

Sandin is at 23, rhe problem with him its leafs already havingg rielly as high offrnsive D and would be hard to use him in a great spot

Liljegren is at 24 and took a huge step foward but still need to understand how he can play with his limitation. Hes really often hypnotize by the puck and get caught out of position and need to understand when its the time.to pinch and being agressive and when its not the time... i always seen liljegren like a potential futur stralman and in still see the same thing in his game. Stralman wasn't at his top level at 24, stralman was not at a higher level than lilly...

Dermott : maybe he just reach his limit...

D taking time to develop event more than a foward...

 

[Damisoph]

Lily's struggles are on Lily, not Keefe. As it stands, I wouldn't be surprised to see him healthy scratched for game 1.

 

[ViewsFromThe6ix]

Lily's struggles are on Lily, not Keefe. As it stands, I wouldn't be surprised to see him healthy scratched for game 1.

I can't believe the amount of people denouncing Lilly's bad play and blaming Keefe. I love Lilly but he hasn't played well at all. He's also not played this much ever in the NHL. Growing pains for a young D.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

This and Bunting's regression have been two of the most dissapointing aspects of this season. I legitimately thought Lilly was locked in as one of our top 4 D for the next decade, but he looks terrible out there right now.

 

[Namikaze Minato]

This thread reminds me of when Sandin first passed Timmy on the depth chart (and in the prospect rankings) and like 40% of the fans started to write him off and call for him to be traded.

 

[Gary Nylund]

This thread reminds me of when Sandin first passed Timmy on the depth chart (and in the prospect rankings) and like 40% of the fans started to write him off and call for him to be traded.

40% writing off Liljegren, 78% writing off Keefe.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I can't believe the amount of people denouncing Lilly's bad play and blaming Keefe. I love Lilly but he hasn't played well at all. He's also not played this much ever in the NHL. Growing pains for a young D.

Yes young NHL D have a 300-500 game development curve .. and that curve is not a curve it has many many many ups and downs .. there is early season nhl hockey, there is battle for da playoff nhl hockey and then there is nhl playoff hockey .. lily is learning each game .. totally different game at different speeds and different time/space with puck .. good news is lily is a great learner and i have faith he will continue his meteoric progressions

 

[mydnyte]

he's been not quite as good since he got 'hurt' ...i wonder if he's actually playing hurt, as that could explain the drop in play.
he shouldnt just turn from our most reliable defender to Holl in a few games.

 

[Stephen]

Essentially, I'd argue that we won't know how well Keefe has helped a young defenseman's development until that kid has played substantially more games than any of those mentioned have played in their careers.

Well, essentially I would say Sheldon Keefe is at a similar stage in his coaching career to Liljegren as a defenseman, especially on the developmental side of things.

That is they both do things well, are still learning on the job and not a finished product. So however Keefe handles the kids on defensemen, he’s not drawing from any experience that if he brings them along at x pace, y responsibility and z tough love, that they turn into an impact defenseman.

 

[Stephen]

But d taking time to develop... unstead of some elite young player, big part of young dmen will start to look good around 23-24-25 and playing at high level around 25-26-27

Sandin is at 23, rhe problem with him its leafs already havingg rielly as high offrnsive D and would be hard to use him in a great spot

Liljegren is at 24 and took a huge step foward but still need to understand how he can play with his limitation. Hes really often hypnotize by the puck and get caught out of position and need to understand when its the time.to pinch and being agressive and when its not the time... i always seen liljegren like a potential futur stralman and in still see the same thing in his game. Stralman wasn't at his top level at 24, stralman was not at a higher level than lilly...

Dermott : maybe he just reach his limit...

D taking time to develop event more than a foward...

Yes, to a degree. It doesn’t help Keefe’s cause that the Leafs have pulled the plug on Dermott and Sandin already. I like Liljegren’s upside and I think this is a blip. I just wouldn’t put too much trust in the Keefe process. He hasn’t been on a 300 game developmental cycle with anybody to draw those insights.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

I can't believe the amount of people denouncing Lilly's bad play and blaming Keefe. I love Lilly but he hasn't played well at all. He's also not played this much ever in the NHL. Growing pains for a young D.

It's really on both. Keefe undeniably has a problem with developing young players in the NHL, it's not just Liljegren. Nobody has been able to gain his trust in the NHL. He holds young players and vets to completely different standards, and it's frankly not good coaching. But it is Liljegren's fault that Keefe has challenged him to play better, and Liljegren has responded by wilting. Keefe can have all the unreasonable expectations he wants, but Liljegren still has the ability to prove him wrong and force him to give him a spot. Instead, he's proving Keefe right not to trust him and that is on him

 

[francis246]

Yes, to a degree. It doesn’t help Keefe’s cause that the Leafs have pulled the plug on Dermott and Sandin already. I like Liljegren’s upside and I think this is a blip. I just wouldn’t put too much trust in the Keefe process. He hasn’t been on a 300 game developmental cycle with anybody to draw those insights.

But that’s not Keefe’s decision, that’s the organization who has made the decision to move on from those players. So is it Keefe or is the management group who has traded away those players before that 300 game mark. That’s why I’ve been adamant that the failure to develop defenseman is an organizational flaw as opposed to a coaching flaw. How many coaches have we been. Through in the last decade and we still have yet to churn out a reliable, steady top 4 dman. That’s more on drafting, managements philosophy or lookfor’s in a defenseman and our amateur scouting staff as opposed to coaching IMO.

There’s only so much a coach can do if you’re bringing him players with deficiencies that would render those players non-impactful in a top 4 role on our team. (Sandin, Rubins, Percy, Dermott, Marincin, Conor Carrick, Justin Holl, Jake Gardiner, Frankie Corrado, Andreas Borgeman whoever else we’ve tried and failed with). Liljegren is better than most of those guys if not all. So hopefully the tide changes with him and he’s our diamond in the rough.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

This thread reminds me of when Sandin first passed Timmy on the depth chart (and in the prospect rankings) and like 40% of the fans started to write him off and call for him to be traded.

Are we supposed to be praising him for his poor play right before a pivotal playoff berth?

 

[Namikaze Minato]

Are we supposed to be praising him for his poor play right before a pivotal playoff berth?

Are people supposed to cut him down and write him off because hes played badly for a few weeks?

The answer to both questions is "no", nobody on hf is supposed to do anything and its dumb to pretend the kids stellar season is now ruined because of a rough patch.

 

[6ix]

As weird as this might sound, it seems like Liljegren plays better when he’s playing 20ish mins a night rather than this 13-15 mins a night when we go 11-7.

Some guys just play better when they play more and have a consistent role, which hasn’t happened since the deadline and trying to get all the new faces playing time.

 

[thusk]

WþYes, to a degree. It doesn’t help Keefe’s cause that the Leafs have pulled the plug on Dermott and Sandin already. I like Liljegren’s upside and I think this is a blip. I just wouldn’t put too much trust in the Keefe process. He hasn’t been on a 300 game developmental cycle with anybody to draw those insights.

At the end i still saying it, NHL is not a league of development. If you want to play and having opportunity, you need to earn it.

You need to do your job and perform to keep it. Its the same for keefe, if he didn't do is job and get succes with it, he will lost his job...

Keefe job is trying to get the best of maximum player he can, not just get the max of young player whatever whats happening

 

[Mr_Fun]

I can't believe the amount of people denouncing Lilly's bad play and blaming Keefe. I love Lilly but he hasn't played well at all. He's also not played this much ever in the NHL. Growing pains for a young D.

I hate the narrative that it's the coaches fault. If he can't handle being benched for a few games over an 82 game schedule, then he's probably more suited playing back in Europe. That said, I think he'll reset and regain form; he's still a valuable part of the team.

 

[Stephen]

At the end i still saying it, NHL is not a league of development. If you want to play and having opportunity, you need to earn it.

You need to do your job and perform to keep it. Its the same for keefe, if he didn't do is job and get succes with it, he will lost his job...

Keefe job is trying to get the best of maximum player he can, not just get the max of young player whatever whats happening

I don't disagree. Keefe's job is to maximize the roster, and if a young defenseman can't get up to speed and contribute, there's a cold hard reality. But a coach that can nurture young talent to be impact players (at any position) is also a skill that helps maximize the roster.

 

[thusk]

I don't disagree. Keefe's job is to maximize the roster, and if a young defenseman can't get up to speed and contribute, there's a cold hard reality. But a coach that can nurture young talent to be impact players (at any position) is also a skill that helps maximize the roster.

But liljegren is 24... still young for a dman and doesn't mean he will not be a good impacful top 4 D in 2-3 season.

I always comparing liljegren at stralman... where was stralman game at 24? 1 goal 17 pass in columbus -7 playing 19:44 ( 2:28 in pp), doesn't playing on PK...

 

[Stephen]

But liljegren is 24... still young for a dman and doesn't mean he will not be a good impacful top 4 D in 2-3 season.

I always comparing liljegren at stralman... where was stralman game at 24? 1 goal 17 pass in columbus -7 playing 19:44 ( 2:28 in pp), doesn't playing on PK...

To be clear, I think Liljegren is going to be a solid top 4 defenseman for us in the Rasmus Andersson mold.

My original point was that we have to take Keefe's handling of defensemen with a grain of salt because he doesn't have the track record of developing any impact defensemen in his own young career, so the way he handles a young defenseman has to be looked at with healthy skepticism. Aka, he's not Barry Trotz whose developed a half dozen star defensemen and you just trust the process.

 

[Funk21]

Holl is a much worse defenceman and gets paraded out there time and time again. Liljegren has had a few bad games/ a stretch of games and Keefe throws him under the bus. Not to mention the carousel of D partners.

Rielly Brodie
McCabe Liljegren
Gio Schenn
Holl

You have a PMD on each line and Holl can pick up extra minutes with some PK minutes.

 

[Super Mega]

Liljegren had a far better season than Holl but he also responded poorly to getting benched. Holl has elevated his game and Lilly came back and just didn't look right.

I'm a big Liljegren fan but feels like its shaping up for him to miss game 1. Curious about what he can do down this stretch here, assuming Keefe gives him the opportunity.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Liljegren had a far better season than Holl but he also responded poorly to getting benched. Holl has elevated his game and Lilly came back and just didn't look right.

I'm a big Liljegren fan but feels like its shaping up for him to miss game 1. Curious about what he can do down this stretch here, assuming Keefe gives him the opportunity.

He should be getting another shot with some injuries up front and going back to 11-7.

Schenn has done nothing to suggest he should be in the top 6 over Liljegren and I doubt that an off-side Gustafsson has a better shot than him either... So Liljegren still should have the inside track for a spot in the playoffs. Unfortunately, Schenn is likely going to get the Lyubushkin treatment and it is just going to blow up in our faces again because we need "grit".

 

[thewave]

To be clear, I think Liljegren is going to be a solid top 4 defenseman for us in the Rasmus Andersson mold.

My original point was that we have to take Keefe's handling of defensemen with a grain of salt because he doesn't have the track record of developing any impact defensemen in his own young career, so the way he handles a young defenseman has to be looked at with healthy skepticism. Aka, he's not Barry Trotz whose developed a half dozen star defensemen and you just trust the process.

This team needs a new coach that is more defensively minded.

It also needs to look at it;s tending from scouting to drafting to developing.

Yes LG should be a top 4 defender.

Most moves our Leafs made or have made recently are not about the long term success of this team. I would go as far as to say they are to save Dubas and Keefe's jobs. Same goes for Shanny.

Keefe is as awkward with his players in the press as he is making adjustments in the playoffs. What more can I say?

 

[Funk21]

As weird as this might sound, it seems like Liljegren plays better when he’s playing 20ish mins a night rather than this 13-15 mins a night when we go 11-7.

Some guys just play better when they play more and have a consistent role, which hasn’t happened since the deadline and trying to get all the new faces playing time.

Add to that that he gets thrown to new D partners every night because Keefe wants to tinker. The Kid is in his second full season, playing great for three quarters of the season. A bunch of trades go down. Pairings get thrown in a blender. Team is playing poorly defensively and suddenly he is benched when he has a few bad games. Seriously WTF. Holl is a terrible terrible D Man and get opportunity after opportunity. I’ll take Lily over him any day of the week. If he isn’t on one of the pairing I all but guarantee we lose to TB.