Tribute Timothy Liljegren part 2

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Keefe is the main culprit. A kid whose struggled with confidence before was playing great hockey, and the coach decides to criticize him for no reason whatsoever, and now he's making errors that he was almost never making before.
It might be too late to salvage Liljegren this season. Maybe next year with a new coach depending on what happens in the playoffs.
If Keefe is responsible for destroying Liljegren's confidence, is he not also responsible for helping develop the confidence in the first place?

TL has not played as well these past 10 games as he did before. If Keefe's criticism is going to knock him off his game, then what effect would a coughed up puck have when it ends up in the net? I like TL, his game has grown nicely, and I would like to see him with Gio on the 3rd pair heading into the playoffs. But, play better and this minor controversy is put to bed.
 
If Keefe is responsible for destroying Liljegren's confidence, is he not also responsible for helping develop the confidence in the first place?

TL has not played as well these past 10 games as he did before. If Keefe's criticism is going to knock him off his game, then what effect would a coughed up puck have when it ends up in the net? I like TL, his game has grown nicely, and I would like to see him with Gio on the 3rd pair heading into the playoffs. But, play better and this minor controversy is put to bed.
Your logic would make sense if Liljegren deserved the cruticism but he didn't. Will Keefe hold other defenceman to the same standard?
Anyways it's done. Keefe has already removed one defenceman from his plans and it won't matter how well Lilly plays, Keefe will find an excuse to criticize him.
The important thing is the team find a way to win a series, because the coach won't really help them.
 
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If Keefe is responsible for destroying Liljegren's confidence, is he not also responsible for helping develop the confidence in the first place?

TL has not played as well these past 10 games as he did before. If Keefe's criticism is going to knock him off his game, then what effect would a coughed up puck have when it ends up in the net? I like TL, his game has grown nicely, and I would like to see him with Gio on the 3rd pair heading into the playoffs. But, play better and this minor controversy is put to bed.
Outside of a few glaring mistakes I really don't think he's played as badly as some people think he has the past couple of weeks or more. The few big mistakes he's made has been pretty major, but otherwise he's played solid defensive hockey to me. Even the game winning goal in the Canes game I don't blame him too much as he did try to flip the puck out mid air and the Canes player just happened to get his stick on it and knock it down and keep it in the zone to have it lead to the GWG.

Overall I think he's played more than well enough to at least start on the 3rd pair with Gio if not more. If every Dman got punished for making a few big mistakes then almost every Leafs Dman would've been punished at least once or twice by now or in Rielly's case more than a few times.
 
Outside of a few glaring mistakes I really don't think he's played as badly as some people think he has the past couple of weeks or more. The few big mistakes he's made has been pretty major, but otherwise he's played solid defensive hockey to me. Even the game winning goal in the Canes game I don't blame him too much as he did try to flip the puck out mid air and the Canes player just happened to get his stick on it and knock it down and keep it in the zone to have it lead to the GWG.

Overall I think he's played more than well enough to at least start on the 3rd pair with Gio if not more. If every Dman got punished for making a few big mistakes then almost every Leafs Dman would've been punished at least once or twice by now or in Rielly's case more than a few times.
If you look at that Canes goal, his only mistake was not getting it out. Rielly as usual was completely out of position.
 
If this management survives to the offseason, Liljegren is so getting traded. Keefe obviously has no time for him, for whatever reason.

shame that the Leafs actually draft a couple of kids like Sandin and Liljegren with non-top picks that pan out -- a rare enough occurence for this franchise -- and then proceed to run them out of town in favour of lesser players.

pretty baffling.
 
If you look at that Canes goal, his only mistake was not getting it out. Rielly as usual was completely out of position.

ever since the Leafs got serious about defence, Rielly has stuck out like a sore thumb. I've never been much of a fan and that contract is gonna be bad pretty soon. It kinda is already -- you have to shelter him as things stand and there's 7 more years on his deal.
 
Lilly has been fanning on his pass quite a bit.
He is rushing a bit on the defensive end. I really think that 11/7 didn’t help him and he needs someone like Gio to tell him where he should be on the ice.
 
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If this management survives to the offseason, Liljegren is so getting traded. Keefe obviously has no time for him, for whatever reason.

shame that the Leafs actually draft a couple of kids like Sandin and Liljegren with non-top picks that pan out -- a rare enough occurence for this franchise -- and then proceed to run them out of town in favour of lesser players.

pretty baffling.

That's what happens when you start obsessing over grit. First Lyubushkin and now Schenn (when referring to defense). It contradicts Dubas' original game plan and I don't think there has been a single time where we can say that playing a grit guy over a better skill guy has worked.

These guys are #7s at best here and yet they play over a guy who legitimately looks top 4 more often than not.
 
People get way to emotional with this stuff. Based on his play the last few weeks he deserves to be in rotation at the bottom end of the defense. If we go on the long run we all hope we go on I am sure he will factor into that even if he isn't playing game 1. That doesn't mean he is getting traded...or that the coach hates him. We have depth and the players playing the best today should be playing to start the playoffs. Cut and dry.
 
People get way to emotional with this stuff. Based on his play the last few weeks he deserves to be in rotation at the bottom end of the defense. If we go on the long run we all hope we go on I am sure he will factor into that even if he isn't playing game 1. That doesn't mean he is getting traded...or that the coach hates him. We have depth and the players playing the best today should be playing to start the playoffs. Cut and dry.

Agreed... Although his main competition is Gustafsson and Schenn. Gustafsson, as a pure offensive defenseman, has 1 point in 8 games so far with the Leafs. Schenn is a defensive defenseman playing 12 minutes a night and can't defend to save his life right now, at least at ES.
 
Agreed... Although his main competition is Gustafsson and Schenn. Gustafsson, as a pure offensive defenseman, has 1 point in 8 games so far with the Leafs. Schenn is a defensive defenseman playing 12 minutes a night and can't defend to save his life right now, at least at ES.
And Holl. Rielly,Brodie,McCabe, and Gio are locked into playing if they are available. The other 4 are competing for 2 spots.
 
If this management survives to the offseason, Liljegren is so getting traded. Keefe obviously has no time for him, for whatever reason.

shame that the Leafs actually draft a couple of kids like Sandin and Liljegren with non-top picks that pan out -- a rare enough occurence for this franchise -- and then proceed to run them out of town in favour of lesser players.

pretty baffling.

This is a horrible overreaction. You do realize most of the rightside plus Gus are UFA’s. Liljegren isn’t going anywhere. He just hasn’t played good enough to be in the line up. That’s on him. A lot of people used to say this to me, Liljegren is still so young. He’s going to have those up and downs. But this team is looking to compete and right now he’s hurting the team with his play more than helping. Play him a lot in the next 10 games and let him get his game back. Then make a decision for the playoffs. That’s all they can do right now.
 
Instead, Liljegren has joined Holl on the “this player is likely to f*** up” list and the confidence he’s built up all season has been shattered in a matter of weeks. All because Keefe just can’t not have Justin Holl in the lineup and chose to scratch the better (back then anyway) of the two defensemen to give his boy a chance to find chemistry and a spot amidst the new acquisitions.
To be clear, Liljegren has been "healthy scratched" all of 3 times this year, and the two times before yesterday happened directly after getting roughed up in the prior game, so it's unclear if he was actually healthy. Holl himself has been healthy scratched 2 times this year, with no injury considerations at all. So pretty much the same, despite Holl being better this year.

I love Liljegren and think he's going to be a good defenseman, but the idea that Liljegren "broke" by sitting out a game or two is completely ridiculous. His recent play is his own doing, not Keefe's.

If the argument is that Liljegren is capable of being broken by taking a 5 day break at one point during the season (which actually happens naturally multiple times throughout a season), then that only supports the idea of sitting him even more. More likely, this is just the normal ups and downs of a young defender as games ramp up to playoff intensity, and he's tried out in less sheltered situations.
 
To be clear, Liljegren has been "healthy scratched" all of 3 times this year, and the two times before yesterday happened directly after getting roughed up in the prior game, so it's unclear if he was actually healthy. Holl himself has been healthy scratched 2 times this year, with no injury considerations at all. So pretty much the same, despite Holl being better this year.

I love Liljegren and think he's going to be a good defenseman, but the idea that Liljegren "broke" by sitting out a game or two is completely ridiculous. His recent play is his own doing, not Keefe's.

If the argument is that Liljegren is capable of being broken by taking a 5 day break at one point during the season (which actually happens naturally multiple times throughout a season), then that only supports the idea of sitting him even more. More likely, this is just the normal ups and downs of a young defender as games ramp up to playoff intensity, and he's tried out in less sheltered situations.

It would be if that was the only thing that had happened or the only reason I gave. As for the idea that Holl’s healthy scratching and Liljegren’s are equal that is untrue. Holl’s came with zero comments from the head coach to the media about how he has earned nothing despite his play.
 
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That's what happens when you start obsessing over grit. First Lyubushkin and now Schenn (when referring to defense). It contradicts Dubas' original game plan and I don't think there has been a single time where we can say that playing a grit guy over a better skill guy has worked.

These guys are #7s at best here and yet they play over a guy who legitimately looks top 4 more often than not.
Lol no. This is what happens when you don’t draft or develop players with those qualities to play meaningful minutes in bigger roles. You’re forced to acquire stop gaps that are available on the market, which are the replacement level ones you listed.

This roster does not reflect an “obsession” with grit :laugh:
 
Folks you got to be fair .. Lily has screwed himself past week or so .. in hockey rook/young D never ever ever ever get a fair chance .. it has been 100 years like this and Keefer is no different .. bottom line rook D f*ck up and they are almost immediately pulled as coach loses faith and getting it back is a monster task .. Lily got in 2 road games with playoff intensity and he did not show well bottom line .. he is out for playoffs .. hate to say it like that but thats da truth of it .. i personally luv Lily too .. it really sucks as a young D in pro hockey
 
It would be if that was the only thing that had happened or the only reason I gave. As for the idea that Holl’s healthy scratching and Liljegren’s are equal that is untrue. Holl’s came with zero comments from the head coach to the media about how he has earned nothing despite his play.
But that is the only thing that happened. The only other thing that's happened is people wildly exaggerating some pretty normal comments by Keefe. Let's examine what was actually said:

"Just kinda how the other groups shake out, and that's really it. But Liljegren has played good for us all season, we've kinda pulled back on him in the last little bit to give Schenn and Gustaffsson a chance to get in and get comfortable with our group... ...He's an important guy for us for sure, but as I've talked to him about, our team is deeper on defense now than it was prior to the deadline, so with him and the rest of our defense, the standard is higher in terms of staying in and competing with that, and he was in a similar situation last season. And whether it's he or any of our other guys, when you're in you've got to do a really good job because other guys want to play too."

That doesn't sound like Keefe publicly blasting Liljegren to the media. Sounds pretty reasonable.

While we were integrating new people, he sat for the back-end of the back-to-back and one more game after a loss against Edmonton, where he didn't look great, was -2 with a 25 xGF%, and got roughed up. Liljegren himself admitted that he had a "little bit of a rough game in Edmonton", but said after the scratch that he "feels pretty good", so it doesn't sound like he felt his scratch was unwarranted or that his confidence was destroyed. The only other time he's sat out was this past game, after some really rough games that even people here have acknowledged.

Liljegren is a good player, and is going to be an even better one in the future, but it's okay to admit that he's a young defenseman that still has a lot to learn, on a good, deep defense. He had bad games before he was scratched at all, including the self-admitted bad game that led to his scratching. He's going to go through good stretches, and he's also going to go through rough stretches, and it's not because the coach is a big bad meanie.

And for the record, the coach did have comments when Holl came out, despite the fact that Holl is already unfairly and endlessly blasted by the media and fans. He actually had similar comments about competition and looking to get other people time, and then he talked about how his game had slipped in the last game, and made his don't give me a reason to take you out comment. People just didn't care, because it was Holl, not the golden child.
 
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He’s been bad lately and is now #7 on the depth chart.

If I’m him I ask for a trade this summer.

He has the ability to be a solid top 4 guy.
 
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He’s been bad lately and is now #7 on the depth chart.

If I’m him I ask for a trade this summer.

He has the ability to be a solid top 4 guy.

Something obviously happened.

He was doing great and showing all the promise.

There is an event with Keefe calling him out and whatever else happened behind the scenes.

Sandin is traded and Engvall

Becomes a totally different and inferior player.


Strange stuff.
 
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He’s been bad lately and is now #7 on the depth chart.

If I’m him I ask for a trade this summer.

He has the ability to be a solid top 4 guy.
If he has the ability to be a top 4 Dman, he should show it here. So far he hasn't lately.
 
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Folks you got to be fair .. Lily has screwed himself past week or so .. in hockey rook/young D never ever ever ever get a fair chance .. it has been 100 years like this and Keefer is no different .. bottom line rook D f*ck up and they are almost immediately pulled as coach loses faith and getting it back is a monster task .. Lily got in 2 road games with playoff intensity and he did not show well bottom line .. he is out for playoffs .. hate to say it like that but thats da truth of it .. i personally luv Lily too .. it really sucks as a young D in pro hockey
but he will be back next year guaranteed .. and i think he will continue to make meteoric gains too .. this is all about 2023 playoffs .. pure and simple .. you know I am very impressed by Lily .. i wish he had played well in Keefer's 2 playoff test games when Keefer told team he would be making decisions based on those 2 games but he didn't .. folks have to face da reality of it .. playoffs are 10% faster in speed and guys don't give/get same time and space on puck as in regular season hockey .. so guys are tighter together all over ice and there are naturally more penalties ,, but to counteract being in box all game refs just flat out don't call all da penalties .. as you can't have 4 hour games .. so skill guys without EXTRA speed tend to struggle .. it is why guys like Willy and Kerfoot can gain an advantage .. you need guys like ROR who can grind out with best in league and then have da little bit more to finish opposite C off in OT
 

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