Tribute Timothy Liljegren part 2

[Stephen]

I'd say speed is one of his bigger concerns and I like the way Holl-Sandin lays out from a size and support perspective. Seems to hit the mark you want with Larsson

Holl has his ups and downs but if I want to beef up for the playoff run I want more Holl type players to mix and match, cap willing.

 

[Joe n]

i don't care how many have played, I care about the impact they have. which has been anything less than spectacular. and like I said, I'm talking about game changing top 4 defenseman. If they were impact defensive guys, there wouldn't be rumours about upgrading our d.

How many D have had an big impact from those 2 drafts. If you think that It's that easy for 2 D that young to have a big impact then you are delusional.

 

[justloveleafs]

That gorgeous legal crumpling hit at the end of the game better shut some people up... I see him as a mobile, physical guy, who if he doesn't get too bulky, will start heading up ice carrying the puck and show his naysayers why he was a number one pick overall for quite a spell.

And I said on another hockey forum well before he was traded Marchment was an untradeable piece.

Lets also say hi to Carter Verhaeghe on that team...

 

[francis246]

How many D have had an big impact from those 2 drafts. If you think that It's that easy for 2 D that young to have a big impact then you are delusional.

young d right across the league are having big impacts and logging big minutes. So don’t come with that bullshit excuse. Ty Smith (although he and his teammates got LIT up tonight is playing top pairing minutes) Sandin has shown glimpses of it more than Liljegren but the fact of the matter is if either of those two are relied upon to carry the load in a top 4 role heading into a playoffs you’re delusional if you think we’re winning. I quite like Sandin but this isn’t his thread

 

[stickty111]

Nice game by him today. Keefe putting him out on a 5 on 3 is a great sign for him, and shows they really believe he can be a main PK option in the near future.

 

[Joe n]

young d right across the league are having big impacts and logging big minutes. So don’t come with that bullshit excuse. Ty Smith (although he and his teammates got LIT up tonight is playing top pairing minutes) Sandin has shown glimpses of it more than Liljegren but the fact of the matter is if either of those two are relied upon to carry the load in a top 4 role heading into a playoffs you’re delusional if you think we’re winning. I quite like Sandin but this isn’t his thread

Still haven't answered the question. How many D from those drafts are having a big impact? You make it sound like we should trade him for a bag of pucks. He is a big part of the future.

 

[francis246]

Still haven't answered the question. How many D from those drafts are having a big impact? You make it sound like we should trade him for a bag of pucks. He is a big part of the future.

Did I say trade him for a bag of pucks? Use your brain. I said realistically, we need to upgrade the right side. He isn't ready to be playing top 4 minutes for us because he simply isn't good enough right now. I don't care what he projects to, I want to see the team win now. So if he can't contribute in a top 4 role, they need to stop forcing him that high in the line up.

Cale Makar, Miko Heiskanen, Ty Smith, K'Andre Miller, Rasmus Dahlin, Quinn Hughes, Evan Bouchard, Noah Dobson, Adam Boqvist, Henrik Jokiharju, Mario Ferraro, Alexander Romanov, Rasmus Sandin, Sean Durzi (Albeit due to injury, but he plays top 4 minutes in LA currently)

So yes there is a good group from the 2017/18 drafts that play high in the line up for their teams and also are impactful players.

 

[Kiwi]

Did I say trade him for a bag of pucks? Use your brain. I said realistically, we need to upgrade the right side. He isn't ready to be playing top 4 minutes for us because he simply isn't good enough right now. I don't care what he projects to, I want to see the team win now. So if he can't contribute in a top 4 role, they need to stop forcing him that high in the line up.

Cale Makar, Miko Heiskanen, Ty Smith, K'Andre Miller, Rasmus Dahlin, Quinn Hughes, Evan Bouchard, Noah Dobson, Adam Boqvist, Henrik Jokiharju, Mario Ferraro, Alexander Romanov, Rasmus Sandin, Sean Durzi (Albeit due to injury, but he plays top 4 minutes in LA currently)

So yes there is a good group from the 2017/18 drafts that play high in the line up for their teams and also are impactful players.

All I see are a pile of top 10 picks who should be more advanced than Liljegren and at least half of them are either bottom pair or on **** non competitive teams

Makar-top 5
Heiskanen-top 5
Smith-uncompetitive team
Miller-actully counts
Dahlin-top 5
Hughes-top 10
Bouchard-bottom pair
Dobson-bottom pair
Boqvist-Top 10
Jokiharju-Uncompetitive team
Ferraro-actually counts
Romanov-uncompetitive team
Sandin-bottom pair
Durzi-bottom pair

I take that back, I see two guys picked near or after Liljegren, who play on competitive teams in a larger role than him

You are being irrational, Liljegren is young and prone to making some pretty spectacular mistakes but he is still advanced for his age and he will help this club win with experience

He's playing up the lineup some nights because we've had injuries, not ideal but it happens and he's shown enough to continue persevering with him until we do upgrade come the TDL where he can drop down to a less pressured and less important situation

 

[Funk21]

He played a good game, bodied a few players and when the NJD tried to take a few wacks at Campbell he smoked the player. That is what this team needs. He is 40 games into his NHL career over three seasons. His confidence is growing and Keefe and company is starting to show trust in him when it matters.

Kid has great tape to tape passes, usually makes the smart play(bobbled the puck a few times when he should have played the man-it can happen) and has actually put up some points. He is also gaining the confidence to carry the puck out. We also have to remember he has been much better when not stuck with Dermott who has been awful.

The great thing is we can likely extend this guy for another 2/3 years at a clip of 1.5 ish or less depending on term. It’s exactly what we need to a bottom pairing guy with upside.

 

[francis246]

All I see are a pile of top 10 picks who should be more advanced than Liljegren and at least half of them are either bottom pair or on **** non competitive teams

Makar-top 5
Heiskanen-top 5
Smith-uncompetitive team
Miller-actully counts
Dahlin-top 5
Hughes-top 10
Bouchard-bottom pair
Dobson-bottom pair
Boqvist-Top 10
Jokiharju-Uncompetitive team
Ferraro-actually counts
Romanov-uncompetitive team
Sandin-bottom pair
Durzi-bottom pair

I take that back, I see two guys picked near or after Liljegren, who play on competitive teams in a larger role than him

You are being irrational, Liljegren is young and prone to making some pretty spectacular mistakes but he is still advanced for his age and he will help this club win with experience

He's playing up the lineup some nights because we've had injuries, not ideal but it happens and he's shown enough to continue persevering with him until we do upgrade come the TDL where he can drop down to a less pressured and less important situation

He asked for the list and I provided it to him.

Bouchard, Durzi, Dobson all play top 4 minutes right now plus, PP responsibilities. There's a site that tracks it. Again I never said Liljegren is dog shit. I said he can be a good player in the future but right now if we are truly in win now mode, he should be playing on the third pairing. He's not ready for top 4 minutes. He's been getting exposed in the top 4 role.

 

[LeafsOHLRangers98]

He asked for the list and I provided it to him.

Bouchard, Durzi, Dobson all play top 4 minutes right now plus, PP responsibilities. There's a site that tracks it. Again I never said Liljegren is dog shit. I said he can be a good player in the future but right now if we are truly in win now mode, he should be playing on the third pairing. He's not ready for top 4 minutes. He's been getting exposed in the top 4 role.

Durzi is playing roughly 17 minutes a game. Hardly top 4 minutes on a consistent basis.

Also if you use the player comparison tool on natural stattrick and compare all of these guys 5 on 5, Liljegren comes out favourably against both Durzi and Dobson, and extremely similar to Bouchard in terms of impact.

With Durzi the numbers are similar, but he gets extremely favourable offensive zone start usage (roughly 62% while Liljegren/Bouchard/Dobson are closer to 50).

Dobson plays a very similar role to Liljegren with worse puck management.

Bouchard and Liljegren are close but Bouchard also plays 3 more minutes 5 on 5 per game so he would get the edge there for difficulty.

Like these other guys he isn't exactly a star yet but he's a really good hockey player and definitely should get some top 4 minutes to see if he can keep progressing.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I feel like the Leafs historically shy away from concentrating on building from the blueline out. Partially to do with getting burned on that Nylund, Iafrate, Gill, Benning generation in the early 80s, partially getting burned drafting The Luke’s with Top 10 picks. But also the economic reality of the City of Toronto where you need to justify ticket prices with an entertaining product. Sometimes that’s a high scoring team, sometimes it’s a team that fights but rarely is it ever a well constructed blueline that plays efficient defensive systems.

In our last 4 drafts, we've drafted 11 defenseman, which means that our percentage of picks used on defenseman is higher than the percentage of a roster that is defensemen. We're also one of the better defensive teams in the league...

 

[zeke]

I feel like the Leafs historically shy away from concentrating on building from the blueline out. Partially to do with getting burned on that Nylund, Iafrate, Gill, Benning generation in the early 80s, partially getting burned drafting The Luke’s with Top 10 picks. But also the economic reality of the City of Toronto where you need to justify ticket prices with an entertaining product. Sometimes that’s a high scoring team, sometimes it’s a team that fights but rarely is it ever a well constructed blueline that plays efficient defensive systems.

Well our current team is one of the better defensive teams in the league and has a GM who added Muzzin, Brodie, Sandin, Holl to it in his few years in charge.

 

[Wendelstache]

Liljegren and Sandin are still making a lot of rookie mistakes but some how Sandin is Teflon against criticism.

Both kids will need to play and develop as they both have tons of potential.

 

[Stephen]

Well our current team is one of the better defensive teams in the league and has a GM who added Muzzin, Brodie, Sandin, Holl to it in his few years in charge.

No, I mean a defensively built program like a Nashville that focuses on drafting and developing and concentrating its resources on the blueline. Like Hamhuis, Suter, Weber, Timonen, Josi, Jones, Subban, Ellis, Ekholm, etc. over a 20 year period. That’s not Toronto’s M.O.

 

[Fogelhund]

No, I mean a defensively built program like a Nashville that focuses on drafting and developing and concentrating its resources on the blueline. Like Hamhuis, Suter, Weber, Timonen, Josi, Jones, Subban, Ellis, Ekholm, etc. over a 20 year period. That’s not Toronto’s M.O.

No, nor should it be. You need balance... and I think we are still looking to find balance in drafting.

 

[zeke]

No, I mean a defensively built program like a Nashville that focuses on drafting and developing and concentrating its resources on the blueline. Like Hamhuis, Suter, Weber, Timonen, Josi, Jones, Subban, Ellis, Ekholm, etc. over a 20 year period. That’s not Toronto’s M.O.

Are the preds really the model to follow?

 

[Leafed]

No, I mean a defensively built program like a Nashville that focuses on drafting and developing and concentrating its resources on the blueline. Like Hamhuis, Suter, Weber, Timonen, Josi, Jones, Subban, Ellis, Ekholm, etc. over a 20 year period. That’s not Toronto’s M.O.

Difficult to compare historical M.O.'s when there's been so much turnover at the top for Toronto. In Nashville's case, Polie has actually been there for 20 years.

Over Dubas' ~4 years they have developed Sandin (1st rounder), Holl, and Liljegren into NHL defencemen and have players like Kral and Rubins knocking at the door. Over the years to come there's also Niemela, Kokkonen, Villeneuve, Koster...

Rubins and Holl are successful examples of the development model, working their way up the program from the ECHL. Duszak, Hoeffenmayer, Hellickson, etc are ongoing projects

 

[keonsbitterness]

Are the preds really the model to follow?

You didn't say no.

 

[stickty111]

Durzi is playing roughly 17 minutes a game. Hardly top 4 minutes on a consistent basis.

Also if you use the player comparison tool on natural stattrick and compare all of these guys 5 on 5, Liljegren comes out favourably against both Durzi and Dobson, and extremely similar to Bouchard in terms of impact.

With Durzi the numbers are similar, but he gets extremely favourable offensive zone start usage (roughly 62% while Liljegren/Bouchard/Dobson are closer to 50).

Dobson plays a very similar role to Liljegren with worse puck management.

Bouchard and Liljegren are close but Bouchard also plays 3 more minutes 5 on 5 per game so he would get the edge there for difficulty.

Like these other guys he isn't exactly a star yet but he's a really good hockey player and definitely should get some top 4 minutes to see if he can keep progressing.

Liljegren also gets literally no PP time and probably never will.

 

[Stephen]

Difficult to compare historical M.O.'s when there's been so much turnover at the top for Toronto. In Nashville's case, Polie has actually been there for 20 years.

Over Dubas' ~4 years they have developed Sandin (1st rounder), Holl, and Liljegren into NHL defencemen and have players like Kral and Rubins knocking at the door. Over the years to come there's also Niemela, Kokkonen, Villeneuve, Koster...

Rubins and Holl are successful examples of the development model, working their way up the program from the ECHL. Duszak, Hoeffenmayer, Hellickson, etc are ongoing projects

This isn’t about Dubas and the random defensemen he brings into the organization like all GM’s have to year to year.

I’m referring to a specific organizational focus on building defensively, such as David Poile’s entire career in Nashville (and Washington) which has been his strategy for the past 40 years. More often than not, they will pick a defenseman with a top puck even when their NHL blueline is bursting with high quality defenseman. It’s just a different philosophy.

 

[Stephen]

Are the preds really the model to follow?

I personally prefer the skilled forward approach with big star power, but would be curious to follow a competitive Leafs team that built defensively in a future era too. Specifically wouldn’t mind if we had our Chris Pronger. But a Cale Makar superstar bringing offense from the blueline would be fun to follow.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

This isn’t about Dubas and the random defensemen he brings into the organization like all GM’s have to year to year.

I’m referring to a specific organizational focus on building defensively, such as David Poile’s entire career in Nashville (and Washington) which has been his strategy for the past 40 years. More often than not, they will pick a defenseman with a top puck even when their NHL blueline is bursting with high quality defenseman. It’s just a different philosophy.

This is a double edged sword though as Nashville has never in their history had a 35 goal scorer or a 90 point player. Developing high quality forwards has been their Achilles Heel. It'd be fine if once in a blue moon they'd trade one of their high end defensemen for a high end forward but that just isn't their style.

 

[Stephen]

This is a double edged sword though as Nashville has never in their history had a 35 goal scorer or a 90 point player. Developing high quality forwards has been their Achilles Heel. It'd be fine if once in a blue moon they'd trade one of their high end defensemen for a high end forward but that just isn't their style.

Yeah, I agree it definitely has its draw backs like limited offensive output for one, and probably game to game entertainment value but it’s is a uniquely different philosophy from the one we’ve had here in Toronto with the Leafs. Different sport, but the Raptors championship run was a different experience in terms of watching a team that could lean back on defense to build momentum.

Would be curious to follow along with a team built on those lines in hockey for sheer variety but I’m not too interested in debating the merits of this strategy or turning this into a Kyle Dubas referendum.

 

[Joe n]

He asked for the list and I provided it to him.

Bouchard, Durzi, Dobson all play top 4 minutes right now plus, PP responsibilities. There's a site that tracks it. Again I never said Liljegren is dog shit. I said he can be a good player in the future but right now if we are truly in win now mode, he should be playing on the third pairing. He's not ready for top 4 minutes. He's been getting exposed in the top 4 role.

He is 3rd pairing. Only moved up when Holl was out. He needs to play a lot. If they find someone that fits at the deadline great but until then they need to play the young guys.