Tim Thomas or Roberto Luongo & all goalie trade discussion

[phillipsj89]

If Vancouver couldn't win with Luongo, we won't either.

Luongo has like 2-3 good years left in him and the Leafs don't have the ability to contend in that time.

However:

In that time, the Leafs could have picked up MacKinnon, Eckblad, and McDavid...rather than not contending.

In that time, the Leafs could have picked up one goalie through free agency that would be better than Luongo.

In that time, the Leafs could develop one of their own goaltenders or find a cheaper trade option without a stupid long contract.

Better options out there.

This guy's a chump, and we dont need him. We'll just end up wishing we could do the VERY SAME THING Vancouver is doing NOW in a few years time when we realize the guy is in reality a chump, has no value and thus untradeable, and we'll wish we didn't ship out all the good pieces it will most likely cost for him.

HA! have fun

 

[topched]

Rask.

I guess you missed the argument.

When was the last time a "young, proven #1 goalie" was traded?

Rask was traded as a very young prospect, it was 3 years before he became an NHL regular. I would put him in the "drafted and groomed" pile of guys... even though we drafted him Boston was largely responsible for his development into what he is today.

 

[rdawg1234]

One was chased out of MTL, other from OTT. Are they really as good as their numbers indicate, or are they the product of a solid defensive system? Will they pull a Bryzgalov once they're traded to a less defensive minded team?

Halak 100%, I think he's proven to be a starter(and a playoff fighter.)

Elliot however is a one hit wonder IMO.

however I'd prefer Luongo to both, I feel Halak's price would be quite high, plus he's not exactly elite, moreso average.

 

[rdawg1234]

I guess you missed the argument.

When was the last time a "young, proven #1 goalie" was traded?

Rask was traded as a very young prospect, it was 3 years before he became an NHL regular. I would put him in the "drafted and groomed" pile of guys... even though we drafted him Boston was largely responsible for his development into what he is today.

Halak comes to mind, but he wasn't fully proven, just had a great season.

When you're choosing between Halak and Price, you go with Price, they made the right decision.

Other than him I cant remember a single time this has happened, which is why I dont support the "wait for reimer to become amazing or go the UFA route" as both are far more risky than bringing on a near-elite goalie with a mediocre contract(which I could care less about, he'll retire when he gets bad.)

 

[topched]

If Vancouver couldn't win with Luongo, we won't either.

Luongo has like 2-3 good years left in him and the Leafs don't have the ability to contend in that time.

However:

In that time, the Leafs could have picked up MacKinnon, Eckblad, and McDavid...rather than not contending.

In that time, the Leafs could have picked up one goalie through free agency that would be better than Luongo.

In that time, the Leafs could develop one of their own goaltenders or find a cheaper trade option without a stupid long contract.


This guy's a chump, and we dont need him. We'll just end up wishing we could do the VERY SAME THING Vancouver is doing NOW in a few years time when we realize the guy is in reality a chump, has no value and thus untradeable, and we'll wish we didn't ship out all the good pieces it will most likely cost for him.

1. Luongo has won more playoff games in a single series than the leafs have PLAYED in in the last 7 years. Racked up multiple deep playoff runs and a president's trophy with Luongo as a starter.

2. Elite level goaltenders have proven to be good into their late 30's. Luongo has 5 years of solid #1 calibre NHL goaltending left in him.

3. You're expecting the leafs to either finish dead last or win the draft lottery for 3 straight years? That is something that has only happened once ever, the last 3 years. It was HARD for edmonton to do, and under the new draft format they wouldn't have even accomplished that.

4. Please englighten me on which elite goaltender 30 or younger is going to become available through FA? Ilya Bryzalov was the last true #1 goalie, the contract he got is arguably as bad as Luongo's and the performance is definitely worse.

5. Develop one of our own? You mean like we've done in the past with Pogge, Reimer and Rollheiser? The last true home grown #1 Maple Leaf goaltender was Felix Potvin... please realize how far back that was.

6. At the moment all indications are that we wouldn't be giving up "significant pieces". While I can't confirm this, you can't deny it. So we'll put that one on hold.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

Bozak isn't gritty enough but Kadri is?

I'd honestly be just fine with having the Panthers trade for Luongo. Go make a deal for Theodore, which would be just as easy.

Theodore got FLA to the playoffs last year, not anywhere near Luongo's level, but good enough insurance in order to see if Reimer is the real deal.

Uh yeah...from what I've seen Kadri does not play as afraid as Bozie does...but of course Bozie boys think that he something special. Personally at this point I don't think either one is special but I'd let go of Bozie and not think twice. Kadri is younger and more skilled and definitely grittier.

 

[Bomber0104]

HA! have fun

I will have fun.

Hilarious how some around here think it's some foregone conclusion that Toronto needs Luongo.

Well we don't.

Only desperate fans and desperate GM's (Burke) would want Luongo who hasn't been able to take the Canucks to the promised land...even with really good teams.

Does Toronto have a good team?

No. Not even close.

So why would we want to pay for him when his best years and best teams are behind him?

Leafs need to explore other options and not be suckered into taking a bum contract and a bum player because we haven't made the playoffs in forever.

There's lots of goaltending talent available and it is exchanged all the time in trades and not with contracts like this dastardly one. Some also makes it to free agency and some can even be developed internally through the draft.

If he is not the answer for a team like Vancouver....there's absolutely NO WAY he is the answer here in Toronto.

 

[iArts]

Uh yeah...from what I've seen Kadri does not play as afraid as Bozie does...but of course Bozie boys think that he something special. Personally at this point I don't think either one is special but I'd let go of Bozie and not think twice. Kadri is younger and more skilled and definitely grittier.

1. Kadri is not grittier. I'd say they are exactly the same in that department.
2. Bozak, as of today, has proven way more than Kadri. You can talk all you want about Kadri's upside, but the fact is, it's been 4 years and he hasn't done squat.

 

[Bomber0104]

1. Luongo has won more playoff games in a single series than the leafs have PLAYED in in the last 7 years. Racked up multiple deep playoff runs and a president's trophy with Luongo as a starter.

1. Doesn't matter!

That was on the Vancouver Canucks...a way better TEAM than the Toronto Maple Leafs.

I don't care.

He was younger, and on a better team.

2. Elite level goaltenders have proven to be good into their late 30's. Luongo has 5 years of solid #1 calibre NHL goaltending left in him.

That's bull.

Goalies decline just like players do.

You are looking at exceptions and trying to make a make-believe rule.

5 years?

3. You're expecting the leafs to either finish dead last or win the draft lottery for 3 straight years? That is something that has only happened once ever, the last 3 years. It was HARD for edmonton to do, and under the new draft format they wouldn't have even accomplished that.

I'm not expecting anything. I'm saying it's possible. Just like it is possible for James Reimer to emerge as our savior or Jimmy Howard to be signed...or Garret Sparks to be the next Ryan Miller.

Anything is possible and adding Luongo just limits our possibilities indefinitely.

If he wasn't the answer there, HE ISN'T HERE!!!!!

4. Please englighten me on which elite goaltender 30 or younger is going to become available through FA? Ilya Bryzalov was the last true #1 goalie, the contract he got is arguably as bad as Luongo's and the performance is definitely worse

.

Yeah well now they have rules against those contracts.

5. Develop one of our own? You mean like we've done in the past with Pogge, Reimer and Rollheiser? The last true home grown #1 Maple Leaf goaltender was Felix Potvin... please realize how far back that was.

Ok...better trade Reimer for Luongo then. And Sparks. And Owuya. And Rynnas.

They aren't good players.

Because of Justin Pogge.

6. At the moment all indications are that we wouldn't be giving up "significant pieces". While I can't confirm this, you can't deny it. So we'll put that one on hold.

Vancouver is gonna want a combo of Kadri, Gardiner, Frattin, and 1st's.

Those are valuable players.

 

[iArts]

Vancouver is gonna want a combo of Kadri, Gardiner, Frattin, and 1st's.

Those are valuable players.

Who cares what they want? They won't get such value from any team. Bozak + Kadri is more like it. And we shouldn't even think about anything if that's the price to pay.

 

[Bomber0104]

Who cares what they want? They won't get such value from any team. Bozak + Kadri is more like it. And we shouldn't even think about anything if that's the price to pay.

And if that is the price for what appears to be around a .920 goalie (on an amazing team)...

Imagine what the price would be once he starts declining or we miss the playoffs with him or both.

It will be anarchy in Toronto.

 

[Budsfan]

Here are a few things coming out about the CBA

NHL agreement changes rules on trade salaries

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/article/1312031--nhl-agreement-changes-rules-on-trade-salaries

This new provision affects Luongo and any potential trade to the Leafs. Luongo has played two years of the 12-year contract he signed with the Canucks. His cap hit is $5.3 million per season, but his salary over those first two years is $16.7 million. The Canucks show just over $6 million in savings on cap space, but under the new deal, if Luongo retires from this contract with three or four years left on his deal, the Canucks would be charged those savings against their cap.

If Luongo is traded to the Leafs and retires with three or four years remaining on his deal, the Leafs would also pay a price on their cap over the final years of that deal.

 

[crump]

Another wrinkle....


The NHL is about to begin allowing teams to retain salary in trades, something Toronto general manager Brian Burke has been lobbying hard for in recent years.

Teams will be able to absorb up to 50 per cent of the salary or cap hit of a player they trade away, but can have only a maximum of three such contracts on their books for no more than 15 per cent of the upper salary camp limit.

What it means is that teams interested in Luongo could ask the Canucks to retain part of his salary.



Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Canucks+helped+Luongo+Rule/7792079/story.html#ixzz2HQnP4zX7

 

[charliolemieux]

Another wrinkle....


The NHL is about to begin allowing teams to retain salary in trades, something Toronto general manager Brian Burke has been lobbying hard for in recent years.

Teams will be able to absorb up to 50 per cent of the salary or cap hit of a player they trade away, but can have only a maximum of three such contracts on their books for no more than 15 per cent of the upper salary camp limit.

What it means is that teams interested in Luongo could ask the Canucks to retain part of his salary.



Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Canucks+helped+Luongo+Rule/7792079/story.html#ixzz2HQnP4zX7

That should help LUongo end up in Florida. Good.

 

[iArts]

And if that is the price for what appears to be around a .920 goalie (on an amazing team)...

Imagine what the price would be once he starts declining or we miss the playoffs with him or both.

It will be anarchy in Toronto.

People like you are the reason we never get good players.

NYR overpay like crazy for all players. Guess what? Their team is amazing now. Stop whining. Getting good players will never be cheap or easy.

I'm so tired of everyone only seeing negatives. What you're seeing is only downsides.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

1. Kadri is not grittier. I'd say they are exactly the same in that department.
2. Bozak, as of today, has proven way more than Kadri. You can talk all you want about Kadri's upside, but the fact is, it's been 4 years and he hasn't done squat.

Whatever..Bozie is a ballerina...Kadri actually hits people. Bozie is soft..Kadri is smallish and not going to intimidate anybody but not afraid to take or give a hit. Watch hockey much? Gritty doesn't mean you go looking for trouble but rather you don't shy away from tough hockey or afraid to go to the "dirty areas" They are nothing alike in this department.

Where was Bozie when he was Kadri's age? Playing in the BCHL..not exactly the NHL/AHL...How many games did Bozie have in the NHL at age 22? Zero. You really haven't a clue if you don't think Kadri won't be a better than Bozie is at age 26. Thats 4 more years of development.

 

[Bomber0104]

People like you are the reason we never get good players.

LOL what?

Not sure who's told you what but I am not nor have ever been employed by MLSE.

Do you think they take votes from fans on which players they should get?

It's just my rationalized opinion...don't worry!

NYR overpay like crazy for all players. Guess what? Their team is amazing now. Stop whining. Getting good players will never be cheap or easy.

Getting Henrik Lundqvist, Marion Gaborik, Michael Del Zotto, Marc Staal, Ryan Callahan, and others seemed quite easy actually.

I'm so tired of everyone only seeing negatives. What you're seeing is only downsides.

I'm seeing impatience...and irrationality in this type of move and many others the leafs have done.

That's what I see.

But I do acknowledge I perceive this team differently than most Leafs fans. I will readily admit that.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

People like you are the reason we never get good players.

NYR overpay like crazy for all players. Guess what? Their team is amazing now. Stop whining. Getting good players will never be cheap or easy.

I'm so tired of everyone only seeing negatives. What you're seeing is only downsides.

Yeah they got the players I wanted on the Leafs...rick nash, brad richards and marian gaborik....so in order to make up for the loss of these players we should get roberto luongo..makes perfect sense. And actually its people like Brian Burke, the reason why we don't get good players....As far as I know nobody on this board has that kind of influence.

 

[jimmycarter]

go get both.

 

[Bomber0104]

go get both.

If I had to pick...I'd pick Thomas.

Can't see it happening...nor do I want it to.

Leafs always get burned by the Bruins in trades

 

[Jerkini]

Yeah they got the players I wanted on the Leafs...rick nash, brad richards and marian gaborik....so in order to make up for the loss of these players we should get roberto luongo..makes perfect sense. And actually its people like Brian Burke, the reason why we don't get good players....As far as I know nobody on this board has that kind of influence.

Here's the thing about New York. They have a stud goalie in Lundqvist. He makes New York an incredibly appealing destination for guys like Nash, Richards and Gaborik.

 

[Warden of the North]

Here's the thing about New York. They have a stud goalie in Lundqvist. He makes New York an incredibly appealing destination for guys like Nash, Richards and Gaborik.

Lets see if they're any more appealing then us when the money that can be offered is equal. Slats had no problem offering retirement deals, Burke did. Now Slats is limited.

 

[iArts]

The whole argument is about giving up Bozak (easily replaceable) and Kadri (hasn't proven anything in 4 years. Nothing) for Luongo? Luongo. A top 5 goalie in the league.

Is this a joke? How can some people even think about it?

 

[Bomber0104]

Here's the thing about New York. They have a stud goalie in Lundqvist. He makes New York an incredibly appealing destination for guys like Nash, Richards and Gaborik.

And the fact that it is New York City...

 

[Bomber0104]

The whole argument is about giving up Bozak (easily replaceable) and Kadri (hasn't proven anything in 4 years. Nothing) for Luongo? Luongo. A top 5 goalie in the league.

Is this a joke? How can some people even think about it?

Top 5 goalie behind the Vancouver Canucks...not the Toronto Maple Leafs (which includes Mike Komisarek, JM Liles, Jake Gardiner, and Dion Phaneuf defending his net with him)...

A Top 5 goalie behind the Vancouver Canucks...not the Toronto Maple Leafs, who has past the age of 30...

A Top 5 goalie behind the Vancouver Canucks...not the Toronto Maple Leafs, who has past the age of 30, and has a contract until he is 42 with the roughly the same cap-hit year in and out until then...

A Top 5 goalie behind the Vancouver Canucks...not the Toronto Maple Leafs, who has past the age of 30, and has a contract until he is 42 with the roughly the same cap-hit year in and out until then, who despite all this is going to cost the Leafs valuable pieces of the team now in addition to all the harm he will do in the future.

Excuse my run-on sentence.