Ticket/Attendance Discussion: The Sequel

[AnonoJet]

I don’t know any details of TN’s efforts to sell more season tickets to corporates. All I know about is that they see a problem with lack of corporate season ticket holders.

I think they need a proper campaign with public targets. If they need 3500 more season tickets, then make it a public target. Maybe offer early participants some type of incentive to get on board. People don’t respond well to a veiled public threat. They respond way better to how they can make a difference, and how much closer getting to the target their participation is.

Celebrate the early wins and use them to put pressure on the rest.

 

[SLAYER]

Average attendance in Detroit this season is 18,875. Buffalo is 15,980.

Winnipeg is 13,098.

You'll have to use percentage of arena capacity to get a more accurate picture. Obviously the DET and BUF arenas are quite a bit larger than here in Winnipeg.

 

[Channelcat]

There is more to the story than revenues. Valuations in Forbes and other publications are based on assumed revenues.....which is only half the picture. I'm guessing that TNSE has among the lowest operating costs in Canada and perhaps the entire league. They have a building that's paid for, plus being smaller has benefits along with its drawbacks. And does Mark Chipman really seem that concerned? I don't get that vibe, particularly with him increasing his investments in downtown.

 

[jetsmooseice]

There is more to the story than revenues. Valuations in Forbes and other publications are based on assumed revenues.....which is only half the picture. I'm guessing that TNSE has among the lowest operating costs in Canada and perhaps the entire league. They have a building that's paid for, plus being smaller has benefits along with its drawbacks. And does Mark Chipman really seem that concerned? I don't get that vibe, particularly with him increasing his investments in downtown.

Good point. It was a much different situation in the early 90s.

-Salaries and therefore operating costs escalated very quickly, you had Gretzky making six figures in the mid 80s but then third liners were making into the millions not even a decade later, there was no salary cap or revenue sharing which made the situation very daunting for a small market team
-The owner was a relatively small-time businessman compared to Chipman let alone Thomson
-The arena was very outdated with almost nothing in the way of premium seating, there were only a few private suites in the entire place and as many of us will recall, getting a new arena built was a major struggle
-The team didn't own the arena and didn't get revenue from the other events. I don't think they even got anything out of concession sales except for maybe a small cut?
-There was nothing like True North Square as a revenue-generating spinoff of the arena itself

Not to say that the Jets don't face their challenges but I think it's a different situation then than it is now. There was a whole set of daunting hurdles to overcome back in the 90s, whereas now it is just a matter of getting people to buy tickets. You are right in that Chipman doesn't seem that fussed about it, so I don't know why fans or the public generally should be.

 

[Channelcat]

Good point. It was a much different situation in the early 90s.

-Salaries and therefore operating costs escalated very quickly, you had Gretzky making six figures in the mid 80s but then third liners were making into the millions not even a decade later, there was no salary cap or revenue sharing which made the situation very daunting for a small market team
-The owner was a relatively small-time businessman compared to Chipman let alone Thomson
-The arena was very outdated with almost nothing in the way of premium seating, there were only a few private suites in the entire place and as many of us will recall, getting a new arena built was a major struggle
-The team didn't own the arena and didn't get revenue from the other events. I don't think they even got anything out of concession sales except for maybe a small cut?
-There was nothing like True North Square as a revenue-generating spinoff of the arena itself

Not to say that the Jets don't face their challenges but I think it's a different situation then than it is now. There was a whole set of daunting hurdles to overcome back in the 90s, whereas now it is just a matter of getting people to buy tickets. You are right in that Chipman doesn't seem that fussed about it, so I don't know why fans or the public generally should be.

Yes. I hate to admit it, but Jets 1.0 was a complete gong show.

 

[abax44]

You'll have to use percentage of arena capacity to get a more accurate picture. Obviously the DET and BUF arenas are quite a bit larger than here in Winnipeg.

Buffalo's percentage is actually lower than ours - 87.3 vs 83.8.

There is more to the story than revenues. Valuations in Forbes and other publications are based on assumed revenues.....which is only half the picture. I'm guessing that TNSE has among the lowest operating costs in Canada and perhaps the entire league. They have a building that's paid for, plus being smaller has benefits along with its drawbacks. And does Mark Chipman really seem that concerned? I don't get that vibe, particularly with him increasing his investments in downtown.

I think the optics are worse than the actual numbers. Chipman is still making a bunch of money off of TN's holdings. I assume the league and TN had an agreement, though.

All speculation.

 

[cbcwpg]

This is just my take on some of the numbers, because there are no actual numbers...

It would be great to see a breakdown ( either numbers or % ) of how many season tickets in each market are owned by Joe Fan vs those owned by corporations. My guess is you would find that one of the largest percentages of season tickets owned by Joe Fan are in Winnipeg.

IMO , Joe Fan is doing his part in Winnipeg, it's the corporate support that's the problem. But any lack of corporate support is understandable because in tough economic times, the first expense that businesses will cut out is "entertainment".

I agree with TNSE that the corporate support needs to step up, but if the first major economic downturn since 2011 results in the team relocating, then maybe TNSE shouldn't have bought the team in the first place. Economies go up and down all the time, and any business that wants to survive , needs to be able to live thru these.

It is what it is. I will continue to do my part by buying tickets as long as there is a team here and as long as I can afford it, but if the team leaves, it leaves... no big deal to me. It's just something I spend money on, and if it goes away, I will just spend my money on something else.

 

[jungles]

‘Look, I want to come back, but I’ve got two kids, 9 and 11. They’re playing hockey. I can’t come to that many games.’

This is basically my situation verbatim. Until the last couple seasons we got around this by selling most of our tickets, but selling has become more difficult and tickets are readily available for the odd game we can attend. So unfortunately it looks like we will be giving up our seats next season.

This is exactly why Chipman needs to find a way to encourage more businesses to pick up the slack.

 

[Channelcat]

Speaking of corporate support, does Rogers even spend a dime here? Bell and Rogers are partners in Toronto, but adversarial in the other markets. Doesn't seem like a great way to do things.

 

[jetsmooseice]

‘Look, I want to come back, but I’ve got two kids, 9 and 11. They’re playing hockey. I can’t come to that many games.’

This is basically my situation verbatim. Until the last couple seasons we got around this by selling most of our tickets, but selling has become more difficult and tickets are readily available for the odd game we can attend. So unfortunately it looks like we will be giving up our seats next season.

This is exactly why Chipman needs to find a way to encourage more businesses to pick up the slack.

I'm in the same boat. My kids play sports and have activities. We like to travel. Food/fuel/home maintenance costs have soared in the last couple years. I used to have half seasons but those are gone and lately I've been going to five or six games a year in person.

But last week my kid put a mini-stick through my TV and I had to go buy a new one... that means my Jets ticket purchases are done for the season. There is only so much money.

I'd love to help but I really can't right now. Maybe once the kids are done school I'll get a half season again. But in the meantime go find the 55 year old professional with an accounting or family medicine practice who is making $250K and doesn't have young children... someone like that can easily sign up for a pair of season tickets.

 

[Royale With Cheese]

We are the smallest market with the smallest arena. This was always going to be a challenge and Bettman said as much 13 years ago. It doesn't mean it can't work.

I think Winnipeg has the lowest % of corporate support in the NHL if I recall. Not surprising as we are not a centre for corporate head offices.

Average Winnipeggers have done their share and then some to make this work. Chipman sent a shot across the bow this fall when he called on the business community to help out. Now Bettman is being brought in to say that message again, and louder.

Not time to panic, but this is real IMO and the City business community as a whole needs to pay attention. We don't have a Microsoft HQ here to pony up, but we do have enough smaller to medium businesses that can and should help out with season tickets if they can. Just as an example, if Brown's Social House has a problem coughing up $ for season tickets then they need to think how their business revenues will be affected losing the 3 pre-season games, 41 home games, and playoff games the Jets can bring.

Every little bit can and does help a market like this.

 

[Gm0ney]

Unfortunately I haven't been to Winnipeg yet. Being curious I went to see how much tickets actually cost and bloody hell. I thought Switzerland was high.. roughly CAD 180-200 for a good seat is very expensive.

What's the average income in Winnipeg and surrounding areas?

The median household income in Winnipeg is about $80,000 CAD = 52,000 CHF. But the cost of living is generally far lower here (outside of things like NHL games). $500,000 gets you a pretty nice new house in Winnipeg.

Season ticket prices are lower than walkup. And most people share their season tickets. We had a group of 4 sharing 2 seats in P3 (lower bowl, corner - between the bottom of the offensive zone faceoff circle and the goal line). Today our seats would be about $140/game each. You can pay monthly, so each of us would've been paying $270/month (176 CHF) for 11 games.

 

[Buffdog]

What percentage of revenue are we talking about here? 13,500 is 90% capacity. If your business can't operate on 90% capacity, your business plan might need a tweaking

 

[CorgisPer60]

I don’t know any details of TN’s efforts to sell more season tickets to corporates. All I know about is that they see a problem with lack of corporate season ticket holders.

I think they need a proper campaign with public targets. If they need 3500 more season tickets, then make it a public target. Maybe offer early participants some type of incentive to get on board. People don’t respond well to a veiled public threat. They respond way better to how they can make a difference, and how much closer getting to the target their participation is.

Celebrate the early wins and use them to put pressure on the rest.

CJ did an article for the Athletic, addressing all of this today. Chipman himself states that the Jets have 15% corporate buy-in for seating, while some markets have up to 50%. That's a significant difference. They have 9,000 season ticket holders right now. Even doubling the corporate sponsorship would be good.

 

[UFO]

The median household income in Winnipeg is about $80,000 CAD = 52,000 CHF. But the cost of living is generally far lower here (outside of things like NHL games). $500,000 gets you a pretty nice new house in Winnipeg.

Season ticket prices are lower than walkup. And most people share their season tickets. We had a group of 4 sharing 2 seats in P3 (lower bowl, corner - between the bottom of the offensive zone faceoff circle and the goal line). Today our seats would be about $140/game each. You can pay monthly, so each of us would've been paying $270/month (176 CHF) for 11 games.

thanks for your explanation. It still seems expensive though. For example, for a local game (EV Zug) - admittedly a far inferior league - we pay "only" CHF 90. However, food and drinks are expensive and if I take my kids with me, it costs me 350-400 bucks easily - just for one game.

 

[RetroWinnipeg]

Speaking of corporate support, does Rogers even spend a dime here? Bell and Rogers are partners in Toronto, but adversarial in the other markets. Doesn't seem like a great way to do things.

Those helmet and jersey sponsors must be a good revenue generator by itself, right?

Under such logic, the Toronto Blue Jays should have been relocated three times over.

 

[RetroWinnipeg]

It also sounds like after that Cartmanland season, people have realized that having all games televised is...more convenient.

 

[raideralex99]

CJ did an article for the Athletic, addressing all of this today. Chipman himself states that the Jets have 15% corporate buy-in for seating, while some markets have up to 50%. That's a significant difference. They have 9,000 season ticket holders right now. Even doubling the corporate sponsorship would be good.

This is the problem. Businesses need to step up to the plate seriously are they that cheap or are they over taxed or are their hardly any businesses in Winnipeg?

Here when the Canucks play every single bar and restaurants that have the Canucks game on are packed. They did a news story once when the Canucks don’t play their places are half empty.
Every single bar and restaurants that have the Jets game on should have season tickets.give them to your customers are prizes.
Also greed is involved with Chipman. If the Jets are losing money which imo they are not … Chipman can use it as a tax write off … right?
Majority of the US owners have a sports team as a toy it’s not their bread and butter business.
.

 

[Channelcat]

Those helmet and jersey sponsors must be a good revenue generator by itself, right?

Under such logic, the Toronto Blue Jays should have been relocated three times over.

? Ummm what?

 

[The Blue Baron]

Chipper sure likes to flip-flop. In October he said it’ll never happen on his watch. So which one is it Chipper?

 

[Buffdog]

This is the problem. Businesses need to step up to the plate seriously are they that cheap or are they over taxed or are their hardly any businesses in Winnipeg?

Here when the Canucks play every single bar and restaurants that have the Canucks game on are packed. They did a news story once when the Canucks don’t play their places are half empty.
Every single bar and restaurants that have the Jets game on should have season tickets.give them to your customers are prizes.
Also greed is involved with Chipman. If the Jets are losing money which imo they are not … Chipman can use it as a tax write off … right?
Majority of the US owners have a sports team as a toy it’s not their bread and butter business.
.

With businesses, it's simple: would having season tickets bring in more money than it costs to have them? Is the ROI worth it?

Essentially, if having the tickets doesn't generate enough revenue to offset the cost of having them, it's not a smart business move

If Chipman were smart, he'd have a whole department that helps train businesses on how to use season tickets to increase sales

 

[Gm0ney]

This is the problem. Businesses need to step up to the plate seriously are they that cheap or are they over taxed or are their hardly any businesses in Winnipeg?

Here when the Canucks play every single bar and restaurants that have the Canucks game on are packed. They did a news story once when the Canucks don’t play their places are half empty.
Every single bar and restaurants that have the Jets game on should have season tickets.give them to your customers are prizes.
Also greed is involved with Chipman. If the Jets are losing money which imo they are not … Chipman can use it as a tax write off … right?
Majority of the US owners have a sports team as a toy it’s not their bread and butter business.
.

There are a few reasons why business participation is so low in Winnipeg:

• The Drive to 13000 campaign sold mostly to individuals, so businesses were kind of shut out of the original frenzy.
• TNSE doesn't have a great rep - that "my way or the highway" school of customer service and sales isn't just reserved for loyal season ticket holders.
• Business ain't great right now. The pandemic screwed things up for a lot of companies. Business travel is still down from pre-pandemic levels in a lot of industries. The economic times are a bit uncertain. Tough environment all around.
• TNSE doesn't have a very good sales and marketing department. They had so many years where they didn't have to work at it, they didn't really spend a lot of effort there. That's mentioned in the article - how they've had to build that up recently. Now they have to ramp up that area - and they're fighting some headwinds with the points above.
• The Jets just aren't the hot ticket they once were...

TNSE should've seen this coming. The warning signs were clear 6 or 7 years ago as the ticket market softened. As a STH, I could've sold a Tuesday night game against the Blue Jackets at face value in 2015. By 2019 Toronto and Montreal games were the only ones you could sell at face. When they should've been trying to retain the fleeing season ticket holders, they just acted like the waiting list was infinite. My way or the highway, baby...f*** around with your most loyal fans, who're paying $10K a year and find out when they walk away.

 

[jetsmooseice]

View attachment 824257

Chipper sure likes to flip-flop. In October he said it’ll never happen on his watch. So which one is it Chipper?

Man, not even 13 years into this and we're already going back to the 90s rhetoric.

The team is worth 5x more than Chipman paid for them in 2011, but the public that has supported them since then now gets to enjoy being harangued over not buying enough $6,000 season tickets.

 

[raideralex99]

View attachment 824257

Chipper sure likes to flip-flop. In October he said it’ll never happen on his watch. So which one is it Chipper?

Maybe someone offered him a boatload of cash that he can't refused or is at least thinking about it.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Maybe someone offered him a boatload of cash that he can't refused or is at least thinking about it.

That might be the best explanation I've heard for all of this. There must be a letter of offer and a cheque for a billion dollars from someone in Houston, San Diego or wherever sitting on Chipman's desk and now the wheels are turning in his mind.