Ticket/Attendance Discussion: The Sequel

[Gm0ney]

The cap increase is because the escrow the players had to pay into with the last CBA is over - it related to getting the revenues to the 50/50 split. Now that difference is paid off, the cap is set to increase.

I'm not sure concession prices factor into the cap calculation.

Yes, concessions sold at a game are included in HRR. Pretty much everything is included in HRR except expansion/relocation fees.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

You've mixed up inflation rate with mortgage interest rates. In the 70s the inflation rate was consistently over 8%. For 10 years, from 1973 to 1982, Canada's annual inflation rate averaged 9.62%. And for 9 more years after that (83-91) inflation was running just under 5% annually. Everything nearly quadrupled in price in 19 years between 1973 and 1991.

Mortgage rates were also pretty high over that entire period but they really took off in the early 80s when central banks jacked rates to wrestle inflation down.

Mortgage rates are still low compared to the 70s and 80s and even the 90s (although I recall when mortgage rates dropped into the single digits in the early 90s - like 9% or something - and everyone was saying "we should buy a house!"). For 20 years in the 70s and 80s, 5-year mortgage rates averaged >12%.

The problem is that housing prices kind of rise in lockstep with payments. This chart shows that in Canada, the mortgage payment to median income ratio fluctuates between 30% and 50% with occasional spikes when interest rates suddenly rise. Certain markets (Toronto, Vancouver) are far worse. Winnipeg's not on here but probably compares closely with Montreal.

View attachment 755235

Some interesting information here Gmoney. But no I did not mix up interest and inflation. I am talking about the period before your data. It was mostly pretty stable with mortgage interest rates hovering around 8% for quite a long time. We used to get 30 year mortgages. That is both 30 year amortization and 30 year terms. The long terms had a stabilizing effect on rates.

 

[cbcwpg]

What IS counted under HRR?

• NHL regular season and playoff gate receipts
• Pre-season games
• Special games (All-Star Game specifically mentioned)
• NHL national, international and national digital broadcasts
• NHL Networks
• Local cable television broadcasts
• Local over-the-air television broadcasts
• Local pay-per-view, satellite and other broadcasts
• Local radio broadcasts
• Club internet (revenue generated from operation of team websites)
• Publications
• In-arena novelty sales
• Non-arena novelty sales
• Concessions (during NHL games)
• Luxury boxes/suites
• Club/premium seats
• Fixed signage and arena sponsorships
• Temporary signage and club sponsorships
• Dasherboards
• Parking (during NHL games)
• International hockey games
• Other revenues: left open-ended, but mentioned are club and/or league-sponsored or branded events, sale of player-worn jerseys or equipment, among others.

What IS NOT counted under HRR?

• Revenues from the assignment (e.g., waiver fees) of any player contract
• Revenues from the sale or relocation of any club, or grant of any new franchise
• Revenues from the operation of teams (other than NHL teams) owned or controlled by NHL club or club-related entity
• Revenues from the sale of club personal property (e.g., non player-worn stuff)
• Proceeds from loans/financing
• Dues, loans, advances, cash calls, capital contributions received by NHL or related entities
• Amounts collected by the league for any disciplinary action
• Revenues paid by the league for Player Compensation Redistribution System
• Interest income; investment income; insurance recoveries; real estate proceeds
• Any thing of value received in connection with the design or construction of an arena
• “Any thing of value that induced or is intended to induce a Club either to locate or to relocate (e.g., amounts paid to enable a Club to buy-out its lease obligations or enable it to pay any relocation fee) or remain in a particular geographic location such that it will enable the Club or its Club Affiliated Entity to enhance categories or revenue streams constituting HRR, so long as such things of value or other revenues are not reimbursements for operating expenses of the Club”
• Escrow reimbursements
• Revenues from international projects other than international NHL games (e.g., World Cup of Hockey)

CBA School: Article 50 – Team Payroll Range System (part 1, Hockey Related Revenue)

The good news is we're almost through our thorough review of the CBA....

flamesnation.ca

 

[Gm0ney]

Some interesting information here Gmoney. But no I did not mix up interest and inflation. I am talking about the period before your data. It was mostly pretty stable with mortgage interest rates hovering around 8% for quite a long time. We used to get 30 year mortgages. That is both 30 year amortization and 30 year terms. The long terms had a stabilizing effect on rates.

I'm not sure if it was the long term mortgages stabilizing the rates, or the stable rates were making long term mortgages feasible/desirable. I can't imagine a lot of people were eager to lock in for 30 years when rates were skyrocketing.

But my point was, the sweet summer children who've never lived through any significant inflationary period are losing it over a historically modest spike.

 

[Stumbledore]

But my point was, the sweet summer children who've never lived through any significant inflationary period are losing it over a historically modest spike.

This is worth repeating a few times.

 

[RestlessYoungZero]

This is worth repeating a few times.

100%. Its incredibly naive for some people to think they could plan their entire life around historically low interest rates. I'm blown away that anyone signed on to a floating rate when the rates themselves were at historic lows. That and everyone seems to think their 1st house should be 2,000 square feet plus, with full modern renos/open concept kitchen/living areas, etc.

 

[MarkWheeler]

Went to the game last night on a free ticket because someone was not able to go.

With parking, 2 burgers and 2 fries, 2 beers and a sprite, I spent just over $100.

If I had paid for both tickets 200 section, my night would have been over $400.

I could afford that maybe 3 to 4 times a year and I do not have any children to support.

The model has to change.

Cheaper tickets, cheaper concessions to fill the arenas and generate revenue. Charge the person sitting at home enjoying the game on a 70 inch TV; and add features that warrant the cost, like personal views, VR views, added content and features.

Yep, it’s crazy. 3 games at $400 each and there’s your 70” tv to watch it on at home. And it’s not like you’re missing out on a great atmosphere or in game experience anymore by staying home.

 

[DannyGallivan]

It is not semantics. It is massive overstatement.

Yes, buying power has not kept up. People who are carrying mortgages that they can't afford at normal interest rates and people who are being hard hit by rent increases are going to have to do some serious belt tightening.

I don't know whether most people would be hard hit or more lightly impacted like me. From what I see around me, it is not that bad. But even if it is much worse than what I see, it is still just a return to more normal inflation and interest rates.

A lot of it depends on:

Do you have dependants and how many?
How much money to you make?
How much is your mortgage?
What else are you paying for (private school, kids hockey and other sports, travel, etc).

Some people can’t imagine that other people’s lives aren’t exactly like their own.

Then there are those who can clearly afford the games but choose to watch them at home. That is a failure of True North and the City of Winnipeg for not providing a compelling enough reason to attend games, or for failing to provide a safe and comfortable environment to go downtown in the evenings.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Hey, inflation, whether you cite us as a good enough reason, is a big issue for many families. If you find yourself not impacted, you’re in the minority.

My wife and I make well over the median household income for Winnipeg and we definitely feel the pinch from inflation. Factor in daycare costs along with a mortgage that’s upcoming that’s currently at 1.8%, yeah.. things will get tougher and tighter.

I’m in for my 6 or 7 games a year but each night is pricey in tough times like we are now.

Plus, inflation rates don’t tell the whole story. The cost for essentials like food and shelter can be through the roof, but the costs for new cars and travel may have come down. Clearly, you have too eat and pay your mortgage.

 

[DannyGallivan]

100%. It’s incredibly naive for some people to think they could plan their entire life around historically low interest rates. I'm blown away that anyone signed on to a floating rate when the rates themselves were at historic lows. That and everyone seems to think their 1st house should be 2,000 square feet plus, with full modern renos/open concept kitchen/living areas, etc.

True (never be house poor, that’s dumb). However, regardless of why you’re in financial difficulties, the fact remains that the first thing you cut is discretionary purchases.

 

[Guardian17]

I recently purchased a Heritage Jets Jersey at Jets Gear for $ 302.38.

The girl laid my new jersey on the counter and turned to help someone else.

I asked if I could have a bag to put my new jersey in to take home.

She said the bag would cost $1.50.

I just laid down $302.38 for a new jersey and now you want to charge me $1.50 for a bag!?!

 

[Joe Hallenback]

100%. Its incredibly naive for some people to think they could plan their entire life around historically low interest rates. I'm blown away that anyone signed on to a floating rate when the rates themselves were at historic lows. That and everyone seems to think their 1st house should be 2,000 square feet plus, with full modern renos/open concept kitchen/living areas, etc.

A 3 bedroom house which I bought about 9 years ago that was built in 1980 I paid 245K for. Nice area of the city North Kildonian area. The house across from sold for 495K. Its insane the prices for things. Not everyone is looking for the McMansion but the prices of things

I'm not sure if it was the long term mortgages stabilizing the rates, or the stable rates were making long term mortgages feasible/desirable. I can't imagine a lot of people were eager to lock in for 30 years when rates were skyrocketing.

But my point was, the sweet summer children who've never lived through any significant inflationary period are losing it over a historically modest spike.

This reeks of "STOP EATING AVOCADO ON TOAST" mentality

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I'm not sure if it was the long term mortgages stabilizing the rates, or the stable rates were making long term mortgages feasible/desirable. I can't imagine a lot of people were eager to lock in for 30 years when rates were skyrocketing.

But my point was, the sweet summer children who've never lived through any significant inflationary period are losing it over a historically modest spike.

It was both chicken and egg.
I doubt anyone was willing to lock in at the higher rates. The banks were very quick to offer a variety of terms when rates took off.

Yes, and I absolutely agree. That is my point too.

 

[pegcity]

As much as I enjoy the battle of the generations, I'd like to put the blame where it should be. Large corporations who don't feel the need to support the team.

The fact that head offices in Toronto can significantly influence the financial success of the Winnipeg Jets is concerning.

 

[RestlessYoungZero]

A 3 bedroom house which I bought about 9 years ago that was built in 1980 I paid 245K for. Nice area of the city North Kildonian area. The house across from sold for 495K. Its insane the prices for things. Not everyone is looking for the McMansion but the prices of things


This reeks of "STOP EATING AVOCADO ON TOAST" mentality

Totally agree that prices are crazy. My point was more that a lot of people that have only seen historically low interest rates are/were incredibly naive thinking they would always stay that way. We can all look at and learn from history, thinking things will always stay the same is totally insane.

Recognize that I was generalizing when I wrote 'everyone' wants/expects a mcmansion, obviously not all people expect that but I see it a lot with co-workers/friends that refuse to even consider a house that isn't fully renovated and have it in their head that prices will drop to 90s levels, that they'll just wait it out. If the prices collapse that far we're all going to have much bigger problems on our hands with the economy and making a living.

 

[Royale With Cheese]

Recognize that I was generalizing when I wrote 'everyone' wants/expects a mcmansion, obviously not all people expect that but I see it a lot with co-workers/friends that refuse to even consider a house that isn't fully renovated and have it in their head that prices will drop to 90s levels, that they'll just wait it out. If the prices collapse that far we're all going to have much bigger problems on our hands with the economy and making a living.

I see it too and I think part of the reasoning is the never ending HGTV shows about buying and renovating. That culture gets into people's heads.

 

[raideralex99]

Yep, it’s crazy. 3 games at $400 each and there’s your 70” tv to watch it on at home. And it’s not like you’re missing out on a great atmosphere or in game experience anymore by staying home.

This is why business corporations need to step up to the plate.
In Vegas majority of the hotels have Raider season tickets and they give them away for free when you stay at their hotels. I know its included in the price but its a perk to stay at their hotels.
Any businesses that makes money from the Jet games should be dishing right back to True North.
How much money would the hotels, restaurants, shops make if there was no visiting teams coming into Winnipeg?
All the sports bars should have season tickets and give them away as prizes on game nights. They would their money back in one night just by showing Jet games on their big screens.
How does the saying go ... too make money you have to spent money.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

A lot of it depends on:

Do you have dependants and how many?
How much money to you make?
How much is your mortgage?
What else are you paying for (private school, kids hockey and other sports, travel, etc).

Some people can’t imagine that other people’s lives aren’t exactly like their own.

Then there are those who can clearly afford the games but choose to watch them at home. That is a failure of True North and the City of Winnipeg for not providing a compelling enough reason to attend games, or for failing to provide a safe and comfortable environment to go downtown in the evenings.

There are 2 different things being commented on here. One is the effect of inflation/cost of living rise on Jets ticket sales. The other is the extreme terms people are using to describe the current inflation.

JMO but I think the inflation effect on ticket sales is relatively small because the people hardest hit by it are those who never did attend a lot of games. Living paycheque to paycheque doesn't allow much, if anything, for those kinds of extras. Certainly it will be having some effect. I just don't think it will be a lot. There will be those people who were just a little better off and could afford to attend an occasional game but now can't. There will be others who might have gone to a few games before but who will now go to one less.

There are things that Jets could have and should have done as soon as STH support began to slip a little. That would have been when they were still selling out but the waiting list began to shrivel up. One possibility might have been to give STH a 10% greater discount instead of giving the discount to last minute walk-up ticket buyers. Or anything along those lines. Just a thought. Or maybe make the pre-season games free for STH. Or maybe give the discount and delete the pre-season games from the package. Then tickets to the pre-season games would have to have been sold for what the market was willing to pay for them. Which would probably have been around half price. +/-

Wouldn't it be better to be selling out with 13k of the people in the arena being there for the price of 11.7k and the other 2500 at normal pricing instead of having 4k empty seats? That would be = to selling 14.2k tickets the current way. Definitely better than selling 11k total. And it would make STH feel like they were being treated like the best of customers instead of marks.

The list of things to make being a STH special is limited only by imagination. It doesn't even need to have any real added cost in all cases. Give STH a badge and let them use it to get in 10 minutes earlier. Costs practically nothing, means nothing. Makes people feel special.

 

[TommyKillian]

I recently purchased a Heritage Jets Jersey at Jets Gear for $ 302.38.

The girl laid my new jersey on the counter and turned to help someone else.

I asked if I could have a bag to put my new jersey in to take home.

She said the bag would cost $1.50.

I just laid down $302.38 for a new jersey and now you want to charge me $1.50 for a bag!?!

I was at the game last night and was excited to check out the new Craft Beer Corners. Lots of great selection from our local breweries. The list price for a single tall boy was $13.75. Oof! It would have been less than 1/3 that price if I had just drank it at Kilter and watched the game on their big screen.

 

[bustamente]

This might piss off a few people but going to a sporting event is not a right, if you can afford it you go. If you want to drink and eat on the cheap stay home and watch on your tv, I can't afford it anymore and that's what I do. Sure I would love to go a game or two like did in the past but it's no longer in the cards for myself and it seem like many others.

 

[nobody imp0rtant]

I recently purchased a Heritage Jets Jersey at Jets Gear for $ 302.38.

The girl laid my new jersey on the counter and turned to help someone else.

I asked if I could have a bag to put my new jersey in to take home.

She said the bag would cost $1.50.

I just laid down $302.38 for a new jersey and now you want to charge me $1.50 for a bag!?!

That $1.50 is to discourage you from destroying the planet! Do you know many eons it takes for plastic bags to disintegrate? Do you know how many species become extinct every year due to discarded plastic bags? Do you know how much global warming has resulted from those bags? Well, I don't know either but I'll bet it's really, really bad.

 

[AtomicJets]

This might piss off a few people but going to a sporting event is not a right, if you can afford it you go. If you want to drink and eat on the cheap stay home and watch on your tv, I can't afford it anymore and that's what I do. Sure I would love to go a game or two like did in the past but it's no longer in the cards for myself and it seem like many others.

Sure but the reality is if they want to fill the arena they've gotta make it more affordable.

 

[DeepFrickinValue]

Cheaper tickets, cheaper concessions to fill the arenas and generate revenue. Charge the person sitting at home enjoying the game on a 70 inch TV; and add features that warrant the cost, like personal views, VR views, added content and features.

Pump the breaks here a bit.

I am paying someone to watch at home. Not sure who cause I don’t have cable, but someone is getting my money, maybe.

At home beers should be taxed more so we are all paying arena prices in solidarity. I am sure this would have popular support.

 

[bustamente]

Sure but the reality is if they want to fill the arena they've gotta make it more affordable.

At some point they will have to rethink price of tickets and concessions but it won't be this year. As the season progresses and if they can fight for a playoff spot the attendance will tick up. If not they will lose money and Chipman will right it off.

 

[AtomicJets]

At some point they will have to rethink price of tickets and concessions but it won't be this year. As the season progresses and if they can fight for a playoff spot the attendance will tick up. If not they will lose money and Chipman will right it off.

Definitely .. you can't reduce ticket prices in season. That would be a mess.

I'm sure Chipman can afford some bad attendance but I would think it's a little embarrassing to have the national media writing articles about the Jets attendance problems.