THN's Top 100 Players Of All-Time By Position (2010)

[Habsfan18]

Someone posted what he claims to be the list on the main board. I'm not sure how he knows what it is already. If it's the true list, it has some really bad picks, but honestly is much better than I thought it would be.

Damn, if it really is top 20 by position that's sort of disappointing.

It's odd though, because in the season preview issue of THN it said it would be available October 18th. I imagine Pyretta Blaze is a subscriber then.

 

[Hardyvan123]

OV should crack the LW list regardless of modern bias. It's a historically shallow position and he's clearly a generational talent. I wouldn't bat an eye if they put him top five or six already. Who's still going to be ahead of him? Hull, Moore, Mahovlich, Kharlamov, Robitaille... am I forgetting anyone? Was Bucyk a LW?

AO is already ahead of Buyck on the LW charts IMO.

 

[kmad]

Someone posted what he claims to be the list on the main board. I'm not sure how he knows what it is already. If it's the true list, it has some really bad picks, but honestly is much better than I thought it would be.

Outside of having Niedermayer way too high and the obvious NHL slant (no Kharlamov, Tretiak, Fetisov, Makarov..) the defenseman list is solid.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Outside of having Niedermayer way too high and the obvious NHL slant (no Kharlamov, Tretiak, Fetisov, Makarov..) the defenseman list is solid.

I agree. Their list for defensemen is actually very good, other than Niedermayer, and I guess Pilote being too low.

Goaltending isn't bad either, with the obvious exceptions of Hainsworth being too high like usual and Benedict being way too low like usual. FOr some reason, THN loves Lorne Chabot too. Edit: No Johnny Bower either, but that's consistent with their low ranking of him in their 1998 Top 100 list.

 

[JackSlater]

I assumed it'll be top 100 by position. But then I noticed a poster mention that it'll be top 20 per position, to equal up to 100. I imagine that was just his assumption as well, considering he didn't mention having the magazine yet.

This is the post in question:

http://video.thehockeynews.com/mediadetail/3271201

"In 1997 The Hockey News ranked the top 50 players of all-time. Bobby Hull’s multiple 50-goal seasons including 54 in 1966, the highest single season total of the Original Six era, helped earn him the spot as the top left winger.

But that was 13 years ago.

This fall we are releasing a special edition magazine that lists the top 20 players at each position. In this edition of the THN Puck Panel, host Ryan Dixon is joined by writers Adam Proteau and Ken Campbell to discuss the best left wingers of all-time."

That's taken from their website. I don't have the magazine. If it was top 100 at each position the Mogilny mystery would be much easier to solve.

 

[reckoning]

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=826389 (unfortunately the thread there seems headed towards another Hasek vs. Brodeur debate)

If that is indeed the list:

Goalies aren't too bad. I'd have Plante and Hasek higher, and Chabot really shouldn't be there, but it's not half bad.

The defence list is actually pretty good, top 7 is exactly how I have them, but Niedermayer doesn't belong there.

Forward spots are hit and miss. Kovalchuk? Gartner???? Mogilny doesn't seem quite so bad now. Messier's high rating will bother everyone here, but not me.

Most glaring omissions: Johnny Bower, Earl Seibert, Elmer Lach, Bill Gadsby, Frank Nighbor

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=826389 (unfortunately the thread there seems headed towards another Hasek vs. Brodeur debate)

If that is indeed the list:

Goalies aren't too bad. I'd have Plante and Hasek higher, and Chabot really shouldn't be there, but it's not half bad.

The defence list is actually pretty good, top 7 is exactly how I have them, but Niedermayer doesn't belong there.

Forward spots are hit and miss. Kovalchuk? Gartner???? Mogilny doesn't seem quite so bad now. Messier's high rating will bother everyone here, but not me.

Most glaring omissions: Johnny Bower, Earl Seibert, Elmer Lach, Bill Gadsby, Frank Nighbour

I'm fine with people putting him at the top of the Messier, Esposito, Clarke, Trottier group, but ahead of Mikita or Morenz is hard to justify.

Speaking of Trottier, he's too low on that list (13th and below H. Richard???).

 

[Hardyvan123]

I'm not even sure if he'd be in the top-20 if based purely on each RWs best season

Mogilny has 2 103 adjusted point seasons then it goes 90, 88, 81, 76, 75, 72, 65, 57 for his best seasons adjusted. At 1st glance probably not enough to make the top 20 as he wasn't anything special in the playoffs and doesn't have an extensive international career to bump him up into the top 20.

Pavel Bure is higher in my books.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Frank Boucher is a fairly notable omission

This has already been said, but the placement of Pilote is brutal

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=826389 (unfortunately the thread there seems headed towards another Hasek vs. Brodeur debate)

If that is indeed the list:

Goalies aren't too bad. I'd have Plante and Hasek higher, and Chabot really shouldn't be there, but it's not half bad.

The defence list is actually pretty good, top 7 is exactly how I have them, but Niedermayer doesn't belong there.

Forward spots are hit and miss. Kovalchuk? Gartner???? Mogilny doesn't seem quite so bad now. Messier's high rating will bother everyone here, but not me.

Most glaring omissions: Johnny Bower, Earl Seibert, Elmer Lach, Bill Gadsby, Frank Nighbor

I didn't even notice that Earl Seibert is missing. That's pretty brutal.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm fine with people putting him at the top of the Messier, Esposito, Clarke, Trottier group, but ahead of Mikita or Morenz is hard to justify.

If you put a huge empahsis on playoff performance, I can see Mess ahead of either of them. I woudln't do it.

Speaking of Trottier, he's too low on that list (13th and below H. Richard???).

At least THN is consistent. Henri Richard over Trottier was a big criticism of their Top 100 list from 1998.

 

[seventieslord]

I agree. Their list for defensemen is actually very good, other than Niedermayer, and I guess Pilote being too low.

Goaltending isn't bad either, with the obvious exceptions of Hainsworth being too high like usual and Benedict being way too low like usual. FOr some reason, THN loves Lorne Chabot too. Edit: No Johnny Bower either, but that's consistent with their low ranking of him in their 1998 Top 100 list.

How much do you wanna bet that the 1998 list was used as canon for these lists?

I've seen you say this before.

Just how competitive was the WHL/WCHL that Cook played in until he was 30 years old? Just how much did he dominate? That's really the key with Cook. If you assume he was as good before the age of 30 as he was afterwards, then he is right up there in the Jagr/Lafleur group.

If you don't give him any credit for those years, he is probably below Charlie Conacher. I give him some credit (I do have him over Conacher), but I am always confused as to how much.

Cook was the most dominant forward in the west while he was there, and the league contained a number of other HHOFers. I give him a fair bit of credit for this.

However - I don't think you need to give him any credit at all for those years to put him ahead of conacher, and arguably not to put him ahead of lafleur, either.

conacher's claim to fame is the five goal titles. Cook has three of his own and by all accounts was better in every other way. Lafleur we've talked abut enough.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

How much do you wanna bet that the 1998 list was used as canon for these lists?

Would be interesting to compare these lists to their 1998 lists and summarizing all the changes. Will give this a go next week if nobody does it first.

 

[Hardyvan123]

There are players not on that list that Mogilny isn't better than (Recchi, Neely, Tocchet) just to name three recent players off the top of my head.

I really can't see any reason Bill Mosienko makes the top 20 list either.

I know that he is in the Hall but he shouldn't be there either.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Clapper had his higher scoring seasons as a right winger. Bill Mosienko finished 5th, 5th, 8th, 7th, 9th in scoring and he has 2 other seasons in the top 15-20. So, yeah he probably is a top 20 right winger. Unless you rank someone like mike gartner or joe mullen above him.

As much as it pains me to say this, yes even Mike Gartner should be ranked ahead of Old bill.

Really how much is a couple of 15-20 place finishes in a 6 team league worth?

Also Bill has one of the weaker playoff resumes of HHOF forwards.

Off the top of my head I can't think of a weaker playoff resume of any member in the Hall.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Top 20 RWs in my opinion, excluding guys who never played in North American (since you know THN will exclude them):

1. Gordie Howe
2. Maurice Richard
3. Guy Lafleur
4. Jaromir Jagr
5. Mike Bossy
6. Bernard Geoffrion
7. Bill Cook
8. Charlie Conacher
9. Jari Kurri
10. Andy Bathgate
11. Brett Hull
12. Jarome Iginla
13. Teemu Selanne
14. Mickey MacKay
15. Pavel Bure
16. Yvon Cournoyer
17. Bryan Hextall, Sr.
18. Cam Neely
19. Babe Dye
20. Punch Broadbent? Didre Pitre? Gordie Drillon? Cecil Dillon? Dit Clapper? Lanny McDonald? (gasp) Daniel Alfredsson?

Honestly, there is absolutely no way Mogilny deserves to be even close to the top 20 RWs of all time, even if you completely ignore guys who starred in Europe like Makarov, Mikhailov, Maltsev, Martinec, and Nedomansky.

I'd take Daniel Alfredsson over Mogilny for sure.

Pretty decent list although we all know they are going to find a way to put Mike Gartner on there and probably take MacKay off.

Also, I'm guessing this is the order you have them in (or how you might think they might appear on the list), Jagr should be 3rd and maybe even 2nd IMO.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I've seen you say this before.

Just how competitive was the WHL/WCHL that Cook played in until he was 30 years old? Just how much did he dominate? That's really the key with Cook. If you assume he was as good before the age of 30 as he was afterwards, then he is right up there in the Jagr/Lafleur group.

If you don't give him any credit for those years, he is probably below Charlie Conacher. I give him some credit (I do have him over Conacher), but I am always confused as to how much.

Cook has one of the most dominant age 30 and over record of any player of all time.
Chances are he was pretty good before he was 30 IMO.

Conacher was good but Cook was much better IMO.

 

[Hardyvan123]

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=826389 (unfortunately the thread there seems headed towards another Hasek vs. Brodeur debate)

If that is indeed the list:

Goalies aren't too bad. I'd have Plante and Hasek higher, and Chabot really shouldn't be there, but it's not half bad.

The defence list is actually pretty good, top 7 is exactly how I have them, but Niedermayer doesn't belong there.

Forward spots are hit and miss. Kovalchuk? Gartner???? Mogilny doesn't seem quite so bad now. Messier's high rating will bother everyone here, but not me.

Most glaring omissions: Johnny Bower, Earl Seibert, Elmer Lach, Bill Gadsby, Frank Nighbor

Johnny Bucyk 5th best LW is a real stretch IMO, He is a borderline top 20 LW for me.

Also Marcel Dionne at 16 is pretty indicative of his lack of team success IMO as he is 11th all time in adjusted points and has 6 seasons in the top 240 all time as well.

He just never had the fortune of playing on a team like the Habs that Lafleur did.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Cook has one of the most dominant age 30 and over record of any player of all time.
Chances are he was pretty good before he was 30 IMO.

Conacher was good but Cook was much better IMO.

To quote my old post:

This might be a bit off-topic, but I think that Bill Cook is ridiculously underrated compared to his peer Charlie Conacher. (I'll admit I underrated him on my initial top 100 list, too). Cook was the better player.

Goal-scoring A quick glance shows that Conacher has a 5-2 lead in goal-scoring titles, but it's much closer than it appears. Conacher beat Cook by one goal margins in both 1931 and 1932 (31-30 and 34-33). If we consider those years to be tied (a 1 goal difference is hardly significant), Conacher's lead drops to just 3-2.

Alternatively, Cook has has four top-two finishes and, in addition to that, four more top-ten finishes. I think that's more impressive than Conacher (five scoring titles but no more top-ten appearances). It's worth mentioning that Conacher won three of his goal-scoring crowns by a margin of 1 goal or less.

Playmaking We're not exactly comparing premier passers here, but Cook has more top-ten appearances (3-1) and the higher peak (3rd place).

Scoring Slight edge to Cook. Both players have 2 Art Ross trophies. Both have 5 top-five finishes. Cook has a total of 7 top-ten finishes versus 5 for Conacher.

Awards Both have two top-five Hart finishes (Cook was 2nd twice, Conacher was 2nd and 5th). Conacher has 3 first-team and 2 second-team all-star spots. Cook has 3 first-team and 1 second-team all-star spots; however, some of his best years were before the creation of all-star teams. It seems very likely that he'd have at least two more all-star selections (Art Ross, leading goal-scorer & Hart-up to Gardiner in 1927; 4th in scoring in 1930) which should at least tie him with Conacher in this category.

Intangibles Both were tough, aggressive power forwards that combined skill with intimidating physical play. By most accounts, Conacher was the larger and stronger of the two, but also the more gentle.

PlayoffsConacher has 17 goals, 35 pts in 49 games. Cook has 13 goals, 24 pts in 46 games. Conacher was probably better overall. Still, Cook had three top-five finishes (2 for Conacher) so he was probably able to come up with big performances when needed. Both players won 1 Cup.

LongevityConacher had five huge years but never again placed in the top ten in any scoring category. Cook was a scoring leader in eight different years (12 if you include the WCHL).

Outside of the NHL It's pretty close so far, but if we include non-NHL accomplishments, Cook easily takes the lead. The WCHL featured players like Eddie Shore, Frank Boucher, Frank Rederickson, Harry Cameron, George Hainsworth and Hugh Lehman. Cook utterly dominated the league, leading the league in goals twice, assists twice, and scoring three years in a row. Conacher never played professional hockey outside of the NHL.

If we compare their NHL careers, they're basically even. If we include the WCHL, Cook is easily the better player. So, at the very least, I'm surprised Conacher might end up in the early 30s and Cook isn't even available for voting yet.

 

[kmad]

Frank Boucher is a fairly notable omission

This has already been said, but the placement of Pilote is brutal

Speaking of Frank Boucher.... who here remembers Stan Fischler's 1988 top 100?

http://edlerstatesman.wordpress.com/2010/10/05/stan-fischlers-top-100-hockey-players-of-all-time/

Not much of a write up. I own the book and I thought I'd toss it up so we had an online reference to how bad some lists could be. Maybe we have it good with THN, who knows.

 

[Crosbyfan]

I really can't see any reason Bill Mosienko makes the top 20 list either.

I know that he is in the Hall but he shouldn't be there either.

he should be 21st

 

[BM67]

PlayoffsConacher has 17 goals, 35 pts in 49 games. Cook has 13 goals, 24 pts in 46 games. Conacher was probably better overall. Still, Cook had three top-five finishes (2 for Conacher) so he was probably able to come up with big performances when needed. Both players won 1 Cup.

Cook captained the Rangers to two Stanley Cup wins, 1928 and 1933.

 

[markrander87]

Oh god, I saw the name "Mogilny"

Ahahaha as did I

Perhaps it's a fakeout, just to keep people guessing.

 

[raleh]

Guys, who is the bigger fool? The fools who put this list together who absolutely will have Messier over Mikita, Lidstrom over Bourque, Brodeur over a whole wack of guys he shouldn't be near, etc.

OR

The fools (myself included) who will go out and buy this magazine, knowing damn well that we will spend weeks ripping our hair out over how bad it is, and going hoarse arguing with friends who take it as gospel?

 

[markrander87]

Norm Ullman

Anybody else think he is terribly under-rated and deserves to be in the top 20??