This team is bound for another rebuild

[Tuna99]

The challenge is the fact that, aside from Boston and maybe Tampa Bay, everyone is improving, at least, compared to last season.

We're going to be in tough even if Ullmark plays well and our guys stay at the same level or improve internally.

Having Florida and Toronto (whose demise may or may not be premature) out of the picture and we still only made a wild card spot while Detroit was on the sidelines is telling.

So just give up because the road ahead looks hard. That’s a winning attitude

You guys are afraid to win. You’re also also afraid to lose. You don’t have the stomach to be a Sens fan TBH. It’s not for the faint of heart and weak kneed fan being in the Sens army. Go cheer for the Leafs if you want to hate your team and still be loyal

 

[NyQuil]

So just give up because the road ahead looks hard. That’s a winning attitude

You guys are afraid to win. You’re also also afraid to lose. You don’t have the stomach to be a Sens fan TBH. It’s not for the faint of heart and weak kneed fan being in the Sens army. Go cheer for the Leafs if you want to hate your team and still be loyal

I'm literally saying the opposite.

Learn to read.

 

[jbeck5]

it bothers me that you can watch a playoff team on the rise entering its prime and you cry for a rebuild because you don’t understand internal improvement, trades, prospect development, players on the rise, you don’t see the team improving when all they are doing is improving,

You think they have hit their ceiling and they aren’t even close to winning. You have no vision for the team

I never once stated we should rebuild. I simply brought up the question of if we should?

You're confusing questioning something with making a statement.

Basically, take any generic team over 50 years. Are they more likely to win a cup with 5 tear-down and 5 going for it cycles, or 50 years of always trying to ice the best team you can and never having down years to build assets.

Some markets do tear downs and rebuilds while others always try to be good every year...what strategy works best at giving odds to win a cup?

It's a very interesting discussion, and yet, you're here crying about how one must not be a fan if they're talking about maximizing the chances of a single cup win.

 

[jbeck5]

I mean I'm still trying to be hopeful that this core can become a contender, but I'm not seeing how. Idk if that makes me a doomer or what. Green's system got them putting up some beautiful analytical numbers, but outside of that this crop of players doesn't excite me too much.

It's Stu and Sandy. Sandy's just a phenom and Stu is clearly a gifted player who still needs to figure his game out. Often tries to do too much and gets too frustrated with himself.

I really don't think Brady is sticking around, so idk where that would leave us.

It stings knowing there's very little help coming anytime soon because of just how badly Dorion dropped the ball when drafting and trading. Boucher, DeBrincat, Chykrun, the Dadonov blunder.. Can a team really get away with that many mistakes during a rebuild and come out a contender?

The bolded has been the main reason I question this current build.

Not because I don't think stutzle or Sanderson are good...not because I don't see the improvements made or the good team defense improvement...

It's that, does this build, with all its wasted assets, have enough assets to actually become a top contender, or are we wasting years as a bottom feed playoff team that's lucky to get to the second round, and then many years go by and we decide to tear it down and build properly?

 

[jbeck5]

The thing to remember is that if we had ullmark for the full year or a competent back up we are a top-2 team in the division.

The terrible goaltending made an otherwise elite team look like a middling wildcard team.

However, if we were actually a bad team with that bad of goaltending we would have been a lottery team. Ironically, the fact that we made the playoffs with goaltending that bad shows how good the team is.

Watching this team from year to year, we see how inconsistent they are.

While everything you said is in fact true, I know a lot of posters don't have confidence that everything we were good at this past year, we will keep being good at, and then just improve other things.

We've seen this team improve things in the past, only to revert... Maybe we get better goaltending this year...or more consistent, but at the expense of worst team defense....and still finish in a wildcard spot.

We haven't proven to be able to put it all together over a season and be like 110 point contender. We always improve an area at the expense of another area, it seems. Some will have to see the team fire on all cylinders for a full season (and playoffs) before they believe they can actually do it.

 

[jbeck5]

So just give up because the road ahead looks hard. That’s a winning attitude

You guys are afraid to win. You’re also also afraid to lose. You don’t have the stomach to be a Sens fan TBH. It’s not for the faint of heart and weak kneed fan being in the Sens army. Go cheer for the Leafs if you want to hate your team and still be loyal

You have this weird take where if anyone suggests anything different than you, you suggest they be fans of another team.

We're all talking about how to best improve our chances to win a cup and you keep telling posters to cheer for other teams...is winning a cup something a sens fan should not want? If the sens won the cup, would you leave in frustration because that's not what you want from the sens?

 

[Stylizer1]

Watching this team from year to year, we see how inconsistent they are.

While everything you said is in fact true, I know a lot of posters don't have confidence that everything we were good at this past year, we will keep being good at, and then just improve other things.

We've seen this team improve things in the past, only to revert... Maybe we get better goaltending this year...or more consistent, but at the expense of worst team defense....and still finish in a wildcard spot.

We haven't proven to be able to put it all together over a season and be like 110 point contender. We always improve an area at the expense of another area, it seems. Some will have to see the team fire on all cylinders for a full season (and playoffs) before they believe they can actually do it.

It's like people believe that catching lightning in a bottle proves how good this team is. Those 2 runs we went on (one to make the playoffs and the other to the east finals) were great stories but all of the seasons before and after were just a waste of time idling. I feel like this team is idling now hoping for that lightning in a bottle moment instead of building a well oiled machine. Green has done a good job teaching defence but as shown by there playoffs we couldn't score to save our lives.

 

[jbeck5]

My issue with this thread in general is:

People repeating the same obvious facts over and over again which is of no real relevance or benefit at this point. We stumbled in our rebuild. Dorion was on the hot seat and made some dramatic and failed moves and bad picks that cost the team draft capital and hurt the prospect pool. We all know this. Nothing about this is new. Repeating this ad infinitum is becoming a symptom of certifiable mental illness.

The real question is:

How can this team be competitive? Do we just burn everything to the ground, again? So soon after not making the post-season for 7 years? Will the fanbase in this town tolerate this? I mean the casual fans, not the hardcore psychos around here who believe that, in the absence of a Stanley Cup, everything in life is meaningless. Hockey is still a business - Andlauer does not want to pull the plug and watch his attendance dwindle so soon after finally seeing some home playoff revenue..

We're in a Moneyball situation here, where the deck is stacked against us, and the odds of us winning the Cup dropping all the time, with more teams being added all the time, with a potential internal cap on the horizon, with tax disincentives and our presence on NTC lists (like most Canadian teams) a factor.

We're going to rebuild eventually anyway. It's inevitable. Every team does. Either that or we move. So what do we do in the interim? How do we maximize what we do have? How do we raise our miniscule odds a little higher?

That's a more interesting conversation than harping over the same old crap again and again.

While some people think this team can be a contender, I don't really think so. Not a consistent one. Not a Cup contender. I hope we can be a consistent playoff contender, and then through a lot of luck, match-ups fall our way and we get somewhere. And when that probably doesn't pan out, we move on.

But in the meantime, what can we do?

Maybe we get lucky in a draft like we did with Karlsson. I think drafting for skill level is something this team really has to commit to, because it's not going to fall into our laps through other means.

I do criticize the scouting for drafting for size or character or two-way play. That is not a limited resource IMO. Skill is, and we don't have it, and we need it, and it's not going to come to us as we are not a preferred market.

Hopefully the team and Staios get to work. I see people jonesing for Peterka in trade offers, and I'm still annoyed that we picked Jarventie over him. Sure he has his warts. But he was a 34th overall pick, so he would have been available to us this very year.

I still think there's an interesting conversation to be had about the strategy about winning a cup.

Plenty of people say things like "yes, a rebuild does lead to better chance of a cup, but with Stutzle and Sanderson here, we're too good to tank, so we have to try as best as we can while they're here" and I understand that line of thinking...but we often hear "yeah, that rebuild was more successful because they had actual valuable assets to sell off, whereas other team were legit trash with nothing of value"

So maybe stutzle or Sanderson is that value that allows us to really propel the next build? Maybe if we try our best and wait until they're 30 with only a second round playoff to show for it, and then sell them off at a fraction of today's value...is THAT really the best strategy?

Perhaps what gives rebuilds an advantage is having a couple super valuable assets?

Im just curious of the discussion. Has any other team done a rebuild with a couple valuable assets? Did that help their rebuild?

Is stutzle and Sanderson too much to rebuild? You could argue that having a guys like Matthews and Nylander who probably ranked close to Sanderson and stutzle in overall player polls over the last few years, if not better, and that didn't stop them from sucking this year and getting a top pick.

Edit: I will say you bring a strong point about whether the fanbase can take it or not. That is a big factor.

But I have to wonder, if we prolong this build that has a limited chance at success, are we shooting ourself in the foot for our next build, by waiting until all our assets are depleted? Would we be at an advantage to start a next build with some super valuable assets?

Let's say a team gets a general unit of 10 good players from a average rebuild...perhaps we would give ourselves 12-14 units of good players if we start it with 2-4 units rather than waiting until we have 0 units...if that makes any sense from a math point of view.

Perhaps you're at an advantage having the balls to call it early while you have organizational assets valued league wide rather than 30 year olds on expiring contracts.

Before dorion f***ed our recent build with trades, we were often talked about being stacked with assets...often people said we were at an advantage because we got to deal guys like Duchene or stone or Karlsson or pageau etc...guys with value whereas other teams bottoming out didn't have those valuable assets to deal off.

Perhaps we need to follow that strategy again, but this time, not pull those stupid dorion trades for guys without term or who don't want to be here.

Perhaps we actually were on the right path before the debrincat deal, but f***ed it up afterwards.

 

[Stylizer1]

I still think there's an interesting conversation to be had about the strategy about winning a cup.

Plenty of people say things like "yes, a rebuild does lead to better chance of a cup, but with Stutzle and Sanderson here, we're too good to tank, so we have to try as best as we can while they're here" and I understand that line of thinking...but we often hear "yeah, that rebuild was more successful because they had actual valuable assets to sell off, whereas other team were legit trash with nothing of value"

So maybe stutzle or Sanderson is that value that allows us to really propel the next build? Maybe if we try our best and wait until they're 30 with only a second round playoff to show for it, and then sell them off at a fraction of today's value...is THAT really the best strategy?

Perhaps what gives rebuilds an advantage is having a couple super valuable assets?

Im just curious of the discussion. Has any other team done a rebuild with a couple valuable assets? Did that help their rebuild?

Is stutzle and Sanderson too much to rebuild? You could argue that having a guys like Matthews and Nylander who probably ranked close to Sanderson and stutzle in overall player polls over the last few years, if not better, and that didn't stop them from sucking this year and getting a top pick.

Edit: I will say you bring a strong point about whether the fanbase can take it or not. That is a big factor.

But I have to wonder, if we prolong this build that has a limited chance at success, are we shooting ourself in the foot for our next build, by waiting until all our assets are depleted? Would we be at an advantage to start a next build with some super valuable assets?

Let's say a team gets a general unit of 10 good players from a average rebuild...perhaps we would give ourselves 12-14 units of good players if we start it with 2-4 units rather than waiting until we have 0 units...if that makes any sense from a math point of view.

Perhaps you're at an advantage having the balls to call it early while you have organizational assets valued league wide rather than 30 year olds on expiring contracts.

Before dorion f***ed our recent build with trades, we were often talked about being stacked with assets...often people said we were at an advantage because we got to deal guys like Duchene or stone or Karlsson or pageau etc...guys with value whereas other teams bottoming out didn't have those valuable assets to deal off.

Perhaps we need to follow that strategy again, but this time, not pull those stupid dorion trades for guys without term or who don't want to be here.

Perhaps we actually were on the right path before the debrincat deal, but f***ed it up afterwards.

Poor teams rebuild, rich teams retool.

 

[NyQuil]

Edit: I will say you bring a strong point about whether the fanbase can take it or not. That is a big factor.

For sure.

You have to consider the fact that your single-minded determination to see Ottawa hoist a Stanley Cup may not be in keeping with the average fan who sees hockey as a fun night out, and presumably is more entertained by winning the odd game as opposed to losing over and over again in the hopes of nabbing a top talent through the lottery.

The fact that we pulled the plug on Stone, and then pulled the plug on Karlsson, only to now pull the plug on Tkachuk, Sanderson and on Stutzle, you'd have a hard time selling that to people so soon afterwards. And I don't think you can trade Tkachuk and say Stutzle and keep Sanderson because who would want to stick around through a rebuild? What kind of message does it send to the guys who are left? Marner was let go but after years of trauma caused by playoff ineptitude. We haven't hit that low yet, as strange as it sounds.

In short, I think you're in the minority position among the fanbase at this point in time.

I feel like this team is idling now hoping for that lightning in a bottle moment instead of building a well oiled machine.

The lottery is also a lightning in a bottle moment.

We could also end up like Detroit or Vancouver who never get to draft a legitimate superstar prospect at the top of the draft list because they keep getting skipped over in the lottery.

For the record, I do think that the easiest way to win a Cup is to have a top 10 talent at a position in the league, preferably several. And the easiest way to do that (re: only way in our market) is through the draft.

But in my opinion, given the constraints imposed by our long-suffering fanbase and a new owner who presumably would like to have asses in the seats for a little while, we have to navigate the retool as we go and hope to:

(a) Have our current guys continue to improve internally;

(b) Acquire the right guys for a competitive system that can win hockey games despite a potential talent gap; and

(c) Get a little lucky/smart with some picks later on in the rounds than we would like.

You can wish that the team trades all our talent away for picks and prospects and we re-enter the rebuild cycle sooner rather than later but I really don't think it's a realistic proposition at this point in time, which is why I don't know why people keep banging their heads against the wall advocating for it.

If you think the fanbase will support a team financially that takes yet another dive to improve draft position and restart the talent acquisition process, I think you're dreaming.

If the team fails to make the playoffs over say the next two years, I think you might have an easier job convincing people to pull the plug to some degree.

If I'm Andlauer, I'd try to time the new building with the new rebuild - because people will come anyway for the novelty of the new location. But it doesn't look like it's going align with the construction schedule (I don't even know if there's any kind of guesstimate at this point in time).

I'd say that having a really bad season that is out of character with the group (e.g. like the Leafs this year), might be sort of ideal, because you get to keep your talent and get a new infusion of talent, but that usually takes some kind of injury storm and I'm so pessimistic about our chances of actually rising in the lottery given our track record in that department. We'd be set to draft 6th overall or something and drop to 10th.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I think you'd see fan revolt similar to the later toxic Melnyk years if they tried to scorched earth rebuild right now.

 

[Stylizer1]

I think you'd see fan revolt similar to the later toxic Melnyk years if they tried to scorched earth rebuild right now.

I don't think so because the fans know what Melnyks intentions were. Andlauer wouldn't do a rebuild because this team hasn't bottomed out. As long as they stay in the playoff hunt for the foreseeable future and can win a round it makes sense to stay the coarse. As a fan base we are stuck with what ever the owner/GM wants to do and for them it is to maximize profits. Does going all in for 2-3 season then rebuilding for 5-10 outweigh a positive revenue stream over that time knowing that you won't win, probably not. Giving fans the hope of success is easier than winning a cup. To be honest though I don't think any of our players bring back the haul worth a kings ransom. Stu, Brady, and Sanderson are very good players on good contracts but are not going to elevate a team to cup contender.

 

[Tuna99]

You have this weird take where if anyone suggests anything different than you, you suggest they be fans of another team.

We're all talking about how to best improve our chances to win a cup and you keep telling posters to cheer for other teams...is winning a cup something a sens fan should not want? If the sens won the cup, would you leave in frustration because that's not what you want from the sens?

If we won a Cup you’d come here and day the Cup wasn’t as shinny as you thought, and you’d be disappointed in the players that they jumped in the canal and created some noise in the Glebe

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

For sure.

You have to consider the fact that your single-minded determination to see Ottawa hoist a Stanley Cup may not be in keeping with the average fan who sees hockey as a fun night out, and presumably is more entertained by winning the odd game as opposed to losing over and over again in the hopes of nabbing a top talent through the lottery.

The fact that we pulled the plug on Stone, and then pulled the plug on Karlsson, only to now pull the plug on Tkachuk, Sanderson and on Stutzle, you'd have a hard time selling that to people so soon afterwards. And I don't think you can trade Tkachuk and say Stutzle and keep Sanderson because who would want to stick around through a rebuild? What kind of message does it send to the guys who are left? Marner was let go but after years of trauma caused by playoff ineptitude. We haven't hit that low yet, as strange as it sounds.

In short, I think you're in the minority position among the fanbase at this point in time.



The lottery is also a lightning in a bottle moment.

We could also end up like Detroit or Vancouver who never get to draft a legitimate superstar prospect at the top of the draft list because they keep getting skipped over in the lottery.

For the record, I do think that the easiest way to win a Cup is to have a top 10 talent at a position in the league, preferably several. And the easiest way to do that (re: only way in our market) is through the draft.

But in my opinion, given the constraints imposed by our long-suffering fanbase and a new owner who presumably would like to have asses in the seats for a little while, we have to navigate the retool as we go and hope to:

(a) Have our current guys continue to improve internally;

(b) Acquire the right guys for a competitive system that can win hockey games despite a potential talent gap; and

(c) Get a little lucky/smart with some picks later on in the rounds than we would like.

You can wish that the team trades all our talent away for picks and prospects and we re-enter the rebuild cycle sooner rather than later but I really don't think it's a realistic proposition at this point in time, which is why I don't know why people keep banging their heads against the wall advocating for it.

If you think the fanbase will support a team financially that takes yet another dive to improve draft position and restart the talent acquisition process, I think you're dreaming.

If the team fails to make the playoffs over say the next two years, I think you might have an easier job convincing people to pull the plug to some degree.

If I'm Andlauer, I'd try to time the new building with the new rebuild - because people will come anyway for the novelty of the new location. But it doesn't look like it's going align with the construction schedule (I don't even know if there's any kind of guesstimate at this point in time).

I'd say that having a really bad season that is out of character with the group (e.g. like the Leafs this year), might be sort of ideal, because you get to keep your talent and get a new infusion of talent, but that usually takes some kind of injury storm and I'm so pessimistic about our chances of actually rising in the lottery given our track record in that department. We'd be set to draft 6th overall or something and drop to 10th.

If we're going to live and die by the draft, Andlauer needs to pump as much money as he can into getting the best scouts he can find, and pour more resources into Belleville to give the kids the best development possible.

Those two things need to be fixed up and working before the team commits to any level of rebuild. Otherwise, we'll just be wasting more years (and assets).

 

[Stylizer1]

If we're going to live and die by the draft, Andlauer needs to pump as much money as he can into getting the best scouts he can find, and pour more resources into Belleville to give the kids the best development possible.

Those two things need to be fixed up and working before the team commits to any level of rebuild. Otherwise, we'll just be wasting more years (and assets).

I think he's doing that but it's not working.

 

[JungleBeat]

You called me crazy but vindicated at last. JungleBeat is always correct.

 

[Adrianopolous]

This was a good call

 

[SENStastic]

You called me crazy but vindicated at last. JungleBeat is always correct.

Unfortunately you seem to have been right, as much as I dreaded this possibility and was completely against it, the new morons in charge, who are quickly revealing themselves to be just like the old ones they replaced, appear to be deliberately trying to steer us into another stretch of irrelevancy and completely piss away the brutal seven years of pain we just exited. Just as our window is opening, they decided to follow Melnyks playbook.

What a tragedy, being a fan of this franchise is so painful and demoralizing.

 

[JungleBeat]

Unfortunately you seem to have been right, as much as I dreaded this possibility and was completely against it, the new morons in charge, who are quickly revealing themselves to be just like the old ones they replaced, appear to be deliberately trying to steer us into another stretch of irrelevancy and completely piss away the brutal seven years of pain we just exited. Just as our window is opening, they decided to follow Melnyks playbook.

What a tragedy, being a fan of this franchise is so painful and demoralizing.

Buckle in it’s not over yet.

 

[bicboi64]

Not that I think we are, but even if we did decide to rebuild, at least Dorion wouldn't be at the helm lol

 

[SENStastic]

Not that I think we are, but even if we did decide to rebuild, at least Dorion wouldn't be at the helm lol

No f***ing difference. End result is the same regardless how we get there.

 

[BigRig4]

What was our record without Brady in the lineup this year?

 

[Rob]

I accept he had to be dealt. I just have a hard time believing they could not get a roster player that would have an impact. Guess the rebuild is not over?

 

[Relapsing]

What was our record without Brady in the lineup this year?

Better than when he was playing.

 

[Relapsing]

I accept he had to be dealt. I just have a hard time believing they could not get a roster player that would have an impact. Guess the rebuild is not over?

I'm guessing his trade tree isn't over.