This Pittsburgh Penguins Act is Getting Old

[aRielzinhooo]

I hope Sid will stay in Pens till the end but I dont blame him if he decides to join to "codename" Colorado.

 

[rielledup]

There are a lot of people really exaggerating how good Crosby is this year and claiming he's aa good as ever or still in his prime. No, he's not still in his prime, not even close. A prime Crosby would be putting up 130+ points in today's NHL and challenging for the Art Ross every year. He would never be outside the top 20 in points like he is right now.

 

[Number 57]

I wish just once a GM would have the galls to actually trade aging stars before it's too late in order to rebuild on the fly and keep going at it for a few years instead of waiting for it all to crumble and pull a Sharks/Blackhawks and basically end up with an AHL squad for 4 years cause everyone is a grandpa and you basically have no other choice

 

[Mrfenn92]

I wish just once a GM would have the galls to actually trade aging stars before it's too late in order to rebuild on the fly and keep going at it for a few years instead of waiting for it all to crumble and pull a Sharks/Blackhawks and basically end up with an AHL squad for 4 years cause everyone is a grandpa and you basically have no other choice

NTC and NMC clauses hurt and not a good way to go about doing business by trading your franchise icons.

 

[Hank Plank]

Crosby to Boston, plays with Marchand.

 

[PaulD]

I want to give you the perspective of a fan from a team whose never won the cup..

Pointing out deficiencies, about how your team is built, based on the aging core of your team which has won you multiple championships, and trying to give said group a last shot at the holy grail again for their legacy, whether it works or doesn't work, is giving me those idgaf croc tears feels.

This core, your fan base went from 2 players in lemieux and jagr, anchor yall to multiple 'ships, suffering a short period, then having another 2 generational players in Crosby and malkin, give you another multiple ships.

You can opine that this team needs new voice or change or wtvr. Without knowing the inner value or Power of the voices in the room, I'd presume they leaned on the leaders of the team to decide if they go for it or not, if coach has lost room etc, cuz these players earned the opportunity to chase a final glory.

If Sullivan is the problem above all else, I'd assume from all levels, they'd talk to all the important parties about it, and he'd have been canned. It's easier to fire a coach Than trade off a Crosby.

The coach is, more often than not, the scapegoat, to struggling teams. Understand he lead the team to a cup. Personnel changes, and he has input, but again, I'd assume the players were asked if it would work/wanted/needed when new players come on.

Season isn't over, team hasn't gave up, but maybe, time has caught up to the core, the salaries they signed and agreed to take on in trades didn't work, and the game has evolved to a place where they aren't in a realm where it works.. Their division, is arguably, the most competitive in the whole league.

Having said that, it takes but a stretch, to be enough for the playoffs, and this team, especially the core, has shown it can drag the team to success.

It's not like the pens have been a basement team, and they're in a very tough division. IMHO, unless the players gave up on the coach, it's the least of their worries. Either they're going for it or they aren't, rumors of selling off players like Guentzel, for instance, are contradictory to success.

I want to give you the perspective of a fan from a team whose never won the cup..

Pointing out deficiencies, about how your team is built, based on the aging core of your team which has won you multiple championships, and trying to give said group a last shot at the holy grail again for their legacy, whether it works or doesn't work, is giving me those idgaf croc tears feels.

This core, your fan base went from 2 players in lemieux and jagr, anchor yall to multiple 'ships, suffering a short period, then having another 2 generational players in Crosby and malkin, give you another multiple ships.

You can opine that this team needs new voice or change or wtvr. Without knowing the inner value or Power of the voices in the room, I'd presume they leaned on the leaders of the team to decide if they go for it or not, if coach has lost room etc, cuz these players earned the opportunity to chase a final glory.

If Sullivan is the problem above all else, I'd assume from all levels, they'd talk to all the important parties about it, and he'd have been canned. It's easier to fire a coach Than trade off a Crosby.

The coach is, more often than not, the scapegoat, to struggling teams. Understand he lead the team to a cup. Personnel changes, and he has input, but again, I'd assume the players were asked if it would work/wanted/needed when new players come on.

Season isn't over, team hasn't gave up, but maybe, time has caught up to the core, the salaries they signed and agreed to take on in trades didn't work, and the game has evolved to a place where they aren't in a realm where it works.. Their division, is arguably, the most competitive in the whole league.

Having said that, it takes but a stretch, to be enough for the playoffs, and this team, especially the core, has shown it can drag the team to success.

It's not like the pens have been a basement team, and they're in a very tough division. IMHO, unless the players gave up on the coach, it's the least of their worries. Either they're going for it or they aren't, rumors of selling off players like Guentzel, for instance, are contradictory to success.

Nobody said "Sullivan is the problem." Nor does a coach have to be THE problem in order to make a change.
Deboar wasn't THE problem in Vegas but they changed coaches. - Cassidy.
Boudreau wasn't THE problem.in Vancouver but the changed coached - Tochett
Brunette was not THE problem in Florida but they changed coaches - Maurice.
Laviolette wasn't THE problem in Philly but the brought in Torts anyway.

The change is an attempt to improve.
If say Berube or Quenville came in and took over for Sully. Brought his own staff in. Maybe he does for them what all the above coaches did for their respective teams. All good coaches, replaced and team improved.

It's not unlike a trade. Pens moved Petry out brought Karlsson in.
Moved Zucker out brought Smith in.
Moved Dumoulin out brought Graves in.

Not as if it's a knee jerk reaction by any means . Sully has been given plenty of time to take these guys in different direction.
Haven't won a play off round in 6 years.
Better coaches than him have been fired .....and rehired else where.
I enjoyed your post.
As my Habs haven't won a Cup since in 30 years. I can certainly identify with you.
Cheers

 

[Rodgerwilco]

There are a lot of people really exaggerating how good Crosby is this year and claiming he's aa good as ever or still in his prime. No, he's not still in his prime, not even close. A prime Crosby would be putting up 130+ points in today's NHL and challenging for the Art Ross every year. He would never be outside the top 20 in points like he is right now.

He’s obviously not still in his prime, but he’s playing incredibly well given his age, mileage, and the quality of players on the rest of the roster.

 

[Phil Kessels Hot Dog]

Chicago sucks too, who cares? Three cups.

 

[PaulD]

Yeah, true. Remember, two seasons ago Ovechkin was still a great player (some had him in the Hart conversation in the first half of the season). He was 36 then. Now he's definitely nowhere close to as good as he was in his prime.

Teams don't usually rebuild around players who are over 35 years of age. The Penguins can try to make some moves to improve for next season, but it doesn't make sense to be looking to put a good team around Crosby three to four years in the future.

Should have tried a new coaching staff to go with the 6 or 7 new players Dubas brought in.
Sullivan and his staff are like a melting pot system.
No matter who the GM gets Sully will deliver the exact same product on the ice

 

[Voight]

i cant see crosby ever leaving but seeing him in colorado would be insane.

Aside from the hockey aspect, he'd probably enjoy retaining his relative anonymity there.

 

[PaulD]

I mean can crosby really leave after basically begging the franchise to keep everyone he wanted?

you mean Malkin?
Hextal was keeping Letang. Nobody had to "beg" him.

 

[Darren McCord]

If Sullivan is the problem above all else, I'd assume from all levels, they'd talk to all the important parties about it, and he'd have been canned. It's easier to fire a coach Than trade off a Crosby.

Nope Sullivan is FSG golden boy Boston BFF.

He is on his third GM and is the Pseudo GM for this team until he leaves. He has so much power in this org its actually sickening.

 

[Lomez]

You people take this stuff too seriously. As a Pittsburgher, I've been able to enjoy watching and cheering for some of the greatest to ever play the game, enjoy many cup runs, including winning five of them, multiple Art Ross seasons, Harts, Richards, etc.

So, what's the problem? Even now, there are some excellent moments to enjoy and, who knows, figure out the PP to compliment some solid D and 5 on 5, we might even make the playoffs and win a round. It's a marathon boys. Enjoy it.

 

[PaulD]

Chicago sucks too, who cares? Three cups.

Yea, do they still have the same coach from the 3 cups.

 

[Sam de Mtl]

You people take this stuff too seriously. As a Pittsburgher, I've been able to enjoy watching and cheering for some of the greatest to ever play the game, enjoy many cup runs, including winning five of them, multiple Art Ross seasons, Harts, Richards, etc.

So, what's the problem? Even now, there are some excellent moments to enjoy and, who knows, figure out the PP to compliment some solid D and 5 on 5, we might even make the playoffs and win a round. It's a marathon boys. Enjoy it.

Well said.

Is there even a chance to rebuild while Crosby is there? I feel like it would be wasting some years. Trading him seems unlikely also. It would definitely be strange, like it was when Koivu was traded for Montreal fans, but x100.

I feel the best they can do is sell the farm and keep going as long as they can and hope for the best.

Then when Crosby retired, you have a long rebuild ahead of you, but you look really fondly on the 2 decennies of amazing play and some cups you had.

For that reason, I wouldn't trade Guentzel unless they are in a situation where he won't re-sign.

 

[BB88]

Yes my fellow Pens fans seem to be really in denial about this. This team worked for years because it had two players who were top 5 in the league, and at one point were the two best players in the league. As they've slowly dropped off, the team has declined with them. They've aged gracefully, but Crosby/Malkin are no longer the game breaking get out of jail free card they once were, which is to be expected at their age. Malkin has really hit the wall this year, but the subtle signs are also there for Sid as well. The numbers still look really good but he's much more of an opportunist now, not the guy who could control the entire game and break down a defense single handedly.

Yep.

Lot of the fans can see and think they are playing at a high level but the truth is that core isn’t among the most scariest in the East anymore.

There’s difference between playing at a high level and superstar level.

Pens should have just admitted it last year instead of going for the all in move. It’s going to take a long time to rebuild that team.


Edit, I’d still love to hear what Dubas meant when he last offseason said they are keeping both the presence and future in mind when building a team and then going all in with Karlsson

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I hope Sid will stay in Pens till the end but I dont blame him if he decides to join to "codename" Colorado.

The Pens keeping a coach Sid wants to retire playing for, why would he leave when he gets everything he wants essentially? The only way he'd even be mad now is if Jake Guentzel decided he didn't want to stay.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Yes my fellow Pens fans seem to be really in denial about this. This team worked for years because it had two players who were top 5 in the league, and at one point were the two best players in the league.

I don't recall you in the Pens forum at all here, but anyways, I'll bite on this "post"....I'll break it up in parts so I can reply to each criticism.

Crosby and Malkin are both older, Geno has seen more wear and tear on his body than Crosby has, Sid after his whiplack/neck/concussion issues had another concussion, broke his jaw, and had wrist surgery.

Malkin has had more knee procedures, his elbow, etc as well. Sid has the benefit of playing with Jake Guentzel, a top 5 LW in the NHL. Malkin has some of the worst options imaginable and then the good ones he does have as an option are Crosby type wingers in the vein of Dupuis, Kunitz, etc types. They're the kind of wingers an "Elite Grinder" that Crosby is, thrived with for essentially his entire career until Jake has been attached to his hip.

So Crosby in a sense, well logically, has had it easier when his ability to create dipped as he got older because he had Jake Guentzel as a massive help with generating more scoring opportunities and essentially any Right Winger that started to play better in the line-up named Rakell and Rust would be ripped from Malkin's line to rotate on to Sid's line.

Malkin? Barely much support. Last season he finally got a healthier Zucker and did well with him for a fair amount of stretches even if Zucker himself looked worn down, healthier by his standards is actually being in the line-up (I miss Zucker, absolute warrior of a player). But when your head coach decides Colin White, Drew O'Connor, Reilly Smith, Rickard Rakell, Jesse Puljujarvi are the best fits when there was a winger that actually showed a ton of promise in Valtteri Puustinen who was seemingly "punished" for it and banished to the 3rd line with Eller and O'Connor, the coach is purposefully neutering his entire line-up to just appease the 1st line when there's options that could work to balance things out and ease up on the usage.

As they've slowly dropped off, the team has declined with them. They've aged gracefully, but Crosby/Malkin are no longer the game breaking get out of jail free card they once were, which is to be expected at their age.

You go look at Joe Pavelski, a great example of a solid 2nd act in his career. Joe was moved to wing with 2 young players in Dallas - Robo and Hintz. He's not the player that can handle the minutes he used to as a C, but as a RW? Joe can feast on the offense of his that is still pretty elite for his age.

Malkin has needed to move to wing since last season, the wear and tear takes a toll on a him with the injuries he's endured, he needs to shift to wing. The Pens had Granlund last year and Sullivan's idea of using him was the 3C with O'Connor and Rakell or with Jeff Carter and Danton Heinen as their RW or with Poehling as his RW. That level of idiocy is on par with Dan Bylsma deciding a career Right Winger in Jerome Iginla should now play LW because he got lucky with James Neal and his lethal shot and chemistry with Geno, being a smooth fit on the RW.

Crosby is doing fine with Guentzel and Rust (most of the time as the RW), Sid is on pace for 87pts in 82 games, that's if he doesn't heat up down the stretch. Definitely not the same as 93pts in 82 games last year. Jake is on pace for a career year at 85pts and is an impending Free Agent.

Jake also has incredible chemistry with Evgeni Malkin, better than he's ever had with Sid actually. If Geno was to stay as C, the move should have been at some point, to put Reilly Smith with Sid as that's a winger that is basically as close to a Crosby winger as you can get on the roster after Jake. Sid would still produce and with Malkin's line scoring, it might even give teams more pause on just focusing on Sid's line and now have to deal with 2 lines again.

Malkin has really hit the wall this year,

Malkin is struggling to produce with struggling wingers that seemingly have this issue under Mike Sullivan, players that were once producing quite well, come to the Pens and then struggle under Sully's coaching and when they leave, they bounce back to better or closer to their production before joining the Pens (See: Blueger, Granlund, Pearson, Lafferty, Sprong...). Malkin needed support a few seasons ago, Sullivan essentially treats any player added to support the top 9, as options for Sid or the third line, Malkin gets what he gets - which is never the right fit for the game he plays.

The argument of "Malkin can play with anyone" and "Sid is notorious for having trouble finding the right wingers for" is always such bullshit. Sid was a top 5 player with the likes of Kunitz and Dupuis because they played a strong possession game and Sid liked that they were essentially predictable and reliable for what he needed out of them. Malkin is the one that they needed to pay attention to for fit.

but the subtle signs are also there for Sid as well. The numbers still look really good but he's much more of an opportunist now, not the guy who could control the entire game and break down a defense single handedly.

This is for sure. Sid's line is guilty for cheating up the ice and not back checking as consistently as they should be like the other lines. Jake is notorious for being awful in the defensive zone and at times it rubs off on Crosby since he will also just get into the D Zone and sort of move around for the sake of moving around and not really do much else. There are times he's his usual fantastic 200ft player self, but this season he's had far more games where you notice how he's not playing smart in his own end. Sid's numbers have dipped a little this season from last, Rust is attached to Sid a lot as well even though that line scores a fair amount, it also gives up a fair amount (22GF - 19GA). Rakell is a better fit there. The irony being "Rakell is struggling" by Pens media types and others yet Rakell has the same 3 goals and 6 assists as Rust in the same amount of games.

The issues are less so the players than it is the coach. You can't blame players aging when the coach is using them like they're 30yrs old still. That is on the coach to figure out, Dubas can make as many trades as he wants, if the coach doesn't want to use them in advantageous ways, that's a massive problem. Sullivan ages the roster by his usage alone.

Jansen Harkins is not an NHL caliber player, yet he's been a regular for a while now and still has 0 goals in 34 games. While it sucks Harkins is hurt, it's also a blessing he won't be playing for a while. But it also means Sullivan will want another older veteran to take his place instead of using youth. Hallander left at the end of last season knowing its futile to hope for a fair shot under a coach like this.

 

[RMF5630]

How is Sidney Crosby having a career year?

But to the point of this, their PP is awful. Somehow their defense is good and offense is putrid

Smith is almost assuredly going to be traded. I believe the team should trade Guentzel as well and start a rebuild with the large package he would bring back.

Team isn’t good enough to win anything or, hell, even make the playoffs it looks like.

With their age, this was inevitable to happen. It is what it is. Not sure why we are so surprised by this and continue to make threads on it. The Penguins went on a run that 99% of the other teams in the league are jealous of. Now they get to feel the pain of going for it all those years.

As a TB fan I get it. We are going through pain as the core gets older and the sacrifice your body style Cooper likes makes em older than their years. If we make the playoffs and a 1st round win is all that is expected. You feel bad for Stankos and Kuech. Kuech is getting beat up in this style in TB. Is it time for Cooper to move on, winning pct aside? Tough calls. But, if Scotty Bowman can leave, anyone can...

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

They just got 3 cups

 

[Honour Over Glory]

They just got 3 cups

This isn't about that. The last cup win was 2017, since then Sullivan has chased away countless players that went on to do better away from him and the team is about to miss the playoffs back to back for the first time since before the Crosby era.

The Pens with Sid & Geno should still be competitive. They are not, thanks to their coach that 3 GM's have tried to "help" by giving him "Sullivan's kind of players" which actually don't exist because those players would need to have the harshest usage in the league and thrive against the odds, only then are those players "Sullivan's kind."

 

[Lomez]

Well said.

Is there even a chance to rebuild while Crosby is there? I feel like it would be wasting some years. Trading him seems unlikely also. It would definitely be strange, like it was when Koivu was traded for Montreal fans, but x100.

I feel the best they can do is sell the farm and keep going as long as they can and hope for the best.

Then when Crosby retired, you have a long rebuild ahead of you, but you look really fondly on the 2 decennies of amazing play and some cups you had.

For that reason, I wouldn't trade Guentzel unless they are in a situation where he won't re-sign.

No way they're trading Sid. He is Mario-level loved here (Mario's sweater is the only one--beside Michel Briere--hanging in the rafters. Until next Saturday anyway. 66!) I don't think they'll trade Guentzel either. That'd be throwing in the towel, and as I mentioned above, and if the PP were clicking as one thinks it should, we wouldn't even be talking about this.

It'll be fun to watch how Dubas walks the line between rebuild and keeping the team reasonably competitive. You nailed it though by noting we've got a painful rebuild ahead. That's OK, it happens all the time. It'll be the same game to enjoy, just our concerns will be different!

 

[Offtheboard412]

I don't recall you in the Pens forum at all here, but anyways, I'll bite on this "post"....I'll break it up in parts so I can reply to each criticism.

Crosby and Malkin are both older, Geno has seen more wear and tear on his body than Crosby has, Sid after his whiplack/neck/concussion issues had another concussion, broke his jaw, and had wrist surgery.

Malkin has had more knee procedures, his elbow, etc as well. Sid has the benefit of playing with Jake Guentzel, a top 5 LW in the NHL. Malkin has some of the worst options imaginable and then the good ones he does have as an option are Crosby type wingers in the vein of Dupuis, Kunitz, etc types. They're the kind of wingers an "Elite Grinder" that Crosby is, thrived with for essentially his entire career until Jake has been attached to his hip.

So Crosby in a sense, well logically, has had it easier when his ability to create dipped as he got older because he had Jake Guentzel as a massive help with generating more scoring opportunities and essentially any Right Winger that started to play better in the line-up named Rakell and Rust would be ripped from Malkin's line to rotate on to Sid's line.

Malkin? Barely much support. Last season he finally got a healthier Zucker and did well with him for a fair amount of stretches even if Zucker himself looked worn down, healthier by his standards is actually being in the line-up (I miss Zucker, absolute warrior of a player). But when your head coach decides Colin White, Drew O'Connor, Reilly Smith, Rickard Rakell, Jesse Puljujarvi are the best fits when there was a winger that actually showed a ton of promise in Valtteri Puustinen who was seemingly "punished" for it and banished to the 3rd line with Eller and O'Connor, the coach is purposefully neutering his entire line-up to just appease the 1st line when there's options that could work to balance things out and ease up on the usage.

You go look at Joe Pavelski, a great example of a solid 2nd act in his career. Joe was moved to wing with 2 young players in Dallas - Robo and Hintz. He's not the player that can handle the minutes he used to as a C, but as a RW? Joe can feast on the offense of his that is still pretty elite for his age.

Malkin has needed to move to wing since last season, the wear and tear takes a toll on a him with the injuries he's endured, he needs to shift to wing. The Pens had Granlund last year and Sullivan's idea of using him was the 3C with O'Connor and Rakell or with Jeff Carter and Danton Heinen as their RW or with Poehling as his RW. That level of idiocy is on par with Dan Bylsma deciding a career Right Winger in Jerome Iginla should now play LW because he got lucky with James Neal and his lethal shot and chemistry with Geno, being a smooth fit on the RW.

Crosby is doing fine with Guentzel and Rust (most of the time as the RW), Sid is on pace for 87pts in 82 games, that's if he doesn't heat up down the stretch. Definitely not the same as 93pts in 82 games last year. Jake is on pace for a career year at 85pts and is an impending Free Agent.

Jake also has incredible chemistry with Evgeni Malkin, better than he's ever had with Sid actually. If Geno was to stay as C, the move should have been at some point, to put Reilly Smith with Sid as that's a winger that is basically as close to a Crosby winger as you can get on the roster after Jake. Sid would still produce and with Malkin's line scoring, it might even give teams more pause on just focusing on Sid's line and now have to deal with 2 lines again.

Malkin is struggling to produce with struggling wingers that seemingly have this issue under Mike Sullivan, players that were once producing quite well, come to the Pens and then struggle under Sully's coaching and when they leave, they bounce back to better or closer to their production before joining the Pens (See: Blueger, Granlund, Pearson, Lafferty, Sprong...). Malkin needed support a few seasons ago, Sullivan essentially treats any player added to support the top 9, as options for Sid or the third line, Malkin gets what he gets - which is never the right fit for the game he plays.

The argument of "Malkin can play with anyone" and "Sid is notorious for having trouble finding the right wingers for" is always such bullshit. Sid was a top 5 player with the likes of Kunitz and Dupuis because they played a strong possession game and Sid liked that they were essentially predictable and reliable for what he needed out of them. Malkin is the one that they needed to pay attention to for fit.

This is for sure. Sid's line is guilty for cheating up the ice and not back checking as consistently as they should be like the other lines. Jake is notorious for being awful in the defensive zone and at times it rubs off on Crosby since he will also just get into the D Zone and sort of move around for the sake of moving around and not really do much else. There are times he's his usual fantastic 200ft player self, but this season he's had far more games where you notice how he's not playing smart in his own end. Sid's numbers have dipped a little this season from last, Rust is attached to Sid a lot as well even though that line scores a fair amount, it also gives up a fair amount (22GF - 19GA). Rakell is a better fit there. The irony being "Rakell is struggling" by Pens media types and others yet Rakell has the same 3 goals and 6 assists as Rust in the same amount of games.

The issues are less so the players than it is the coach. You can't blame players aging when the coach is using them like they're 30yrs old still. That is on the coach to figure out, Dubas can make as many trades as he wants, if the coach doesn't want to use them in advantageous ways, that's a massive problem. Sullivan ages the roster by his usage alone.

Jansen Harkins is not an NHL caliber player, yet he's been a regular for a while now and still has 0 goals in 34 games. While it sucks Harkins is hurt, it's also a blessing he won't be playing for a while. But it also means Sullivan will want another older veteran to take his place instead of using youth. Hallander left at the end of last season knowing its futile to hope for a fair shot under a coach like this.

You know there is a huge portion of the Pens fandom that does not post on hfboards Pens sub forum right? Like the absolute overwhelming majority of it actually. Anyway it seems like you agree with pretty much everything I said in this thread. It is a talent problem when your best players are no longer 27 years old and then management moves any other talented supporting players like McCann and then what little talent that is left over is misused by Sullivan.

 

[94 Oil Drops]

Their days of grace has past. There's no shame in that fact. I still can't see Crosby moving though. He did say that he wanted to be a Penguin for his entire career.

 

[Man Purse]

Desperate to make a big splash, Dubas had EK call me and try to sell San Jose (on my no trade list) as a great location...

LOL..nice try! (I was born at night, but not last night!) then he retained some $$ and delt me back to the Habs who did a solid and retained some more and sent me home

I hate to break it to you Dubas.. but the Karlsson thing is a fatal attraction that never works