This is a good team

[NCRanger]

Rethink the season goals?!?

Of being a bottom 5 cellar dweller and selling everyone off.

Just saying, they may just find themselves in playoff position at the TDL, and even selling at that point is only going to result in a middle first round draft spot anyway.

At that point, I DON'T BUY, but I don't necessarily sell everyone either. Maybe re-evaluate what I have and see what I can accomplish in free agency or what I might be able to acquire via trades for prospects.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

With this roster and this level of defense, the combination of Scotty Bowman & Toe Blake would hard pressed to produce better results.

Quinn >>> Scotty Bowman + Toe Blake ----> "Hey you never know..."

 

[GAGLine]

Reality was the roster was gutted. There's a coach who seems to get more out of players than AV did and doesn't play favorites. The players now work harder and there's a lot more structure. We have to let this play out a little longer to see exactly what we have. The fear I have is that the moves made have put this team INTO the dreaded middle. There's too much talent and too many prospects for this group to bottom out, but there is no top level talent to actually take this group out of the first round, at best.

The roster is going to be gutted again. Even with our recent winning streak, we are still 3rd worst in the league if the teams behind us win their games in hand. If they don't, we're still 6th worst. We could easily follow this winning streak with a losing streak.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

I think, at best, this would've been exactly what Gorton talked about last season --- the dreaded middle.

McD would still be forced to be a first pairing defenseman, Howden isn't here, and I'm not sure the old guard buys into the system as easily.

Miller and Lundkvist aren't in the system and depending on how far back we want to go, we can also scratch Andersson and ADA.

I think you're talking about a whole different set of problems, with very little in the way of the future at this moment.

So yeah, maybe we're a bubble playoff team this season. And then what?

Another 2-3 decades of sweet 1994 footage.

Then they interview the still living dementia patients from the 1994 faithful to see how much of the Howie Rose call they still can do.

 

[Edge]

The problem some of us had about gutting the roster (not speaking for the OP here, just me) is that last year's team WAS a playoff team if Kreider didn't get disabled and Shattenkirk wasn't damaged goods from day one. Were they Cup contenders? No, but they were were probably a second round squad, even without buying at the deadline (which I would have been vehemently opposed to). And that's all with AV as coach.

Reality was the roster was gutted. There's a coach who seems to get more out of players than AV did and doesn't play favorites. The players now work harder and there's a lot more structure. We have to let this play out a little longer to see exactly what we have. The fear I have is that the moves made have put this team INTO the dreaded middle. There's too much talent and too many prospects for this group to bottom out, but there is no top level talent to actually take this group out of the first round, at best.

Well, I think you defined a dreaded middle playoff team. Good enough to make the playoffs, not good enough to contend --- now or a few years from now.

But it's that last point in particular that's telling --- where would we have gone from there? The concern is that we put ourselves into the dreaded middle, but the reality is that we were already there.

So while I understand the concept of not being able to bottom out, I don't think there was a viable path forward the other way. Frankly, whenever I've seen proposed alternative paths I find them to be even more of a leap of faith that the one we took.

There's also a misconception that it's bottom out our bust. But what exactly do we mean by bottom out? Top pick? Top 3 pick? Top 5? Where's that cutoff?

I think you can argue that the Rangers got a forward with just about as much potential as any in the draft in 2018. I think you we're probably looking at another high pick this year that will result in a first line player, without or without that pick being Hughes or Kakko.

I see more potential in this system NOW than at any point in more than 25 years --- easily. I'll take those odds over hitching my wagon to McD, Nash, Grabner and Stepan over the next 5 years. Because for all this talk about gutting the team, that's essentially who we moved.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Of being a bottom 5 cellar dweller and selling everyone off.

Just saying, they may just find themselves in playoff position at the TDL, and even selling at that point is only going to result in a middle first round draft spot anyway.

At that point, I DON'T BUY, but I don't necessarily sell everyone either. Maybe re-evaluate what I have and see what I can accomplish in free agency or what I might be able to acquire via trades for prospects.

The Rangers will be hardpressed to find themselves in a position like this again, where losing is beneficial for longer-term success and stability.

I hope and I pray that Gorton and company are not resting the future of this organization on a game by game basis with this roster.

 

[Mac n Gs]

They’re really not, but these last few games should at least be a positive indicator for how this team will look in the future. Their forecheck was fantastic last night until the Howden injury, and they really were buzzing all around the offensive zone. I still want to see some more creativity, but they’re trending in the right direction. They still need to find ways to tamp down the multi-shots against shifts where teams are pinning them in their own end. I think it could be mitigated by not having them collapse so low around Hank, but that seems to ge Quinn’s first priority.

 

[will1066]

They're playing a defensive system that seems to be working for them and which is masking their individual deficiencies. I like that there is almost always a player patroling the crease when they're defending against a forecheck. They also defend the slot pretty well and don't give away rebound opportunities like penny stocks. Yet there are still too many breakdowns and unforced errors, and Hank still needs to play out of his mind for them to have any chance to win a game. Point shots against have been problematic, getting screened, etc. Since the beginning, I've felt that Quinn will get this bunch to overachieve.

 

[GAGLine]

Of being a bottom 5 cellar dweller and selling everyone off.

Just saying, they may just find themselves in playoff position at the TDL, and even selling at that point is only going to result in a middle first round draft spot anyway.

At that point, I DON'T BUY, but I don't necessarily sell everyone either. Maybe re-evaluate what I have and see what I can accomplish in free agency or what I might be able to acquire via trades for prospects.

Hayes and Zucc each have 1 year left on their contracts. If we aren't re-signing them, then we HAVE to trade them. To do anything else would be irresponsible asset management.

If we are re-signing them, then we might as well declare the rebuild over and embrace even more years of not quite good enough.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

Of being a bottom 5 cellar dweller and selling everyone off.

Just saying, they may just find themselves in playoff position at the TDL, and even selling at that point is only going to result in a middle first round draft spot anyway.

At that point, I DON'T BUY, but I don't necessarily sell everyone either. Maybe re-evaluate what I have and see what I can accomplish in free agency or what I might be able to acquire via trades for prospects.

Please god no...

 

[Edge]

The roster is going to be gutted again. Even with our recent winning streak, we are still 3rd worst in the league if the teams behind us win their games in hand. If they don't, we're still 6th worst. We could easily follow this winning streak with a losing streak.

I'm always curious by the term gutted.

We traded McD, Nash, Grabner and Holden last year.

Nash is facing potential retirement. Holden is what he is. Grabner might just be his best under AV.

McD landed the rookie on our roster that everyone is talking about the most.

I think the changes have been coming more in waves, more so than one swift swipe of a sword.

 

[Ghost of jas]

Well, I think you defined a dreaded middle playoff team. Good enough to make the playoffs, not good enough to contend --- now or a few years from now.

But it's that last point in particular that's telling --- where would we have gone from there? The concern is that we put ourselves into the dreaded middle, but the reality is that we were already there.

So while I understand the concept of not being able to bottom out, I don't think there was a viable path forward the other way. Frankly, whenever I've seen proposed alternative paths I find them to be even more of a leap of faith that the one we took.

There's also a misconception that it's bottom out our bust. But what exactly do we mean by bottom out? Top pick? Top 3 pick? Top 5? Where's that cutoff?

I think you can argue that the Rangers got a forward with just about as bunch potential as any in the draft in 2018. I think you we're probably looking at another high pick this year that will result in a first line player, without or without that pick being Hughes or Kakko.

I see more potential in this system NOW than at any point in more than 25 years --- easily. I'll take those odds over hitching my wagon to McD, Nash, Grabner and Stepan over the next 5 years. Because for all this talk about gutting the team, that's essentially who we moved.

I posted this elsewhere, but, I need to see Gorton and company stockpile at the forward position like they have on D. I know defense was the strength of last year’s draft, but, between the end of 2016-17 and this past draft, they added Pionk, DeAngelo, Rykov, Lindgren, Hajek, Miller, Lundkvist and Keane, as opposed to just Andersson, Chytil, Howden and Kravtsov. This team is very good at identifying talent at goalie and defense, but, it just has always felt that they come up short at the forward position. This is not to say they can’t identify talent at forward, but the default is always defense. I need to see more swings taken at Kravtsov-type forwards in this upcoming draft. I will be thrilled with one of the high-end forwards that should be available when the Rangers on the clock in the first round. But, look no further then 2010, when not only were Tarasenko and Kuznetsov available, but, the Rangers bypassed Toffoli for Christian Thomas, which bothered me as much as taking McIlrath over Tarasenko.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

I'm always curious by the term gutted.

We traded McD, Nash, Grabner and Holden last year.

Nash is facing potential retirement. Holden is what he is. Grabner might just be his best under AV.

McD landed the rookie on our roster that everyone is talking about the most.

I think the changes have been coming more in waves, more so than one swift swipe of a sword.

How about significantly trimmed instead of gutted? By gutted, we would have to assume we should have kept the players we let go, which is untrue.

 

[NCRanger]

Hayes and Zucc each have 1 year left on their contracts. If we aren't re-signing them, then we HAVE to trade them. To do anything else would be irresponsible asset management.

If we are re-signing them, then we might as well declare the rebuild over and embrace even more years of not quite good enough.

I'd resign Hayes. Would not resign Zucc, regardless of performance. Of course, you have to be smart about contracts and asset management.

What I'm talking about is the talk about dumping everyone not named Howden and Chytil.

 

[Edge]

I posted this elsewhere, but, I need to see Gorton and company stockpile at the forward position like they have on D. I know defense was the strength of last year’s draft, but, between the end of 2016-17 and this past draft, they added Pionk, DeAngelo, Rykov, Lindgren, Hajek, Miller, Lundkvist and Keane, as opposed to just Andersson, Chytil, Howden and Kravtsov. This team is very good at identifying talent at goalie and defense, but, it just has always felt that they come up short at the forward position. This is not to say they can’t identify talent at forward, but the default is always defense. I need to see more swings taken at Kravtsov-type forwards in this upcoming draft. I will be thrilled with one of the high-end forwards that should be available when the Rangers on the clock in the first round. But, look no further then 2010, when not only were Tarasenko and Kuznetsov available, but, the Rangers bypassed Toffoli for Christian Thomas, which bothered me as much as taking McIlrath over Tarasenko.

I've always felt that it was going to be the approach in 2018 and 2019 --- bigger swings.

I think they gave themselves some potential foundation pieces in guys like Andersson, Chytil, Howden, etc.

But 2018 was going to be a draft with bigger swings --- namely Kravtsov and Miller.

I would venture that 2019 would be much the same, especially if they have multiple firsts again.

I think we're looking at 2-4 firsts in this draft and I think the Rangers are going to continue to go for talent they feel has a chance to make some noise.

 

[East Coast Bias]

They've given up the 5th most shots against, and 3rd most CA so far. We were the worst in both last season.

So they didn't exactly "fix' the team defense. Not that I expect an elite team defense with the roster of young kids and bad defenseman. But just pointing that part out.

 

[True Blue]

Hayes and Zucc each have 1 year left on their contracts. If we aren't re-signing them, then we HAVE to trade them. To do anything else would be irresponsible asset management.

If we are re-signing them, then we might as well declare the rebuild over and embrace even more years of not quite good enough.

Not necessarily on Hayes. He is young enough to come out on the other side of the rebuild. Like Zbad or Krieder. Zuc, however, should be trade bait.

 

[Edge]

I'd resign Hayes. Would not resign Zucc, regardless of performance. Of course, you have to be smart about contracts and asset management.

What I'm talking about is the talk about dumping everyone not named Howden and Chytil.

Eh, I think we have to separate the talk on here from the Rangers' actual approach. That's always a good first step IMO.

I would not resign Hayes at this point, but I would sign Kreider to an extension and keep him and Zibanejad. The only wildcard in that approach is how the Rangers view Zibanejad's movement clause.

So I'd move Zucc and Hayes now and get additional assets.

I'd hold off on other names unless I was completely blown away by an offer.

As a result, my 2019 TDL list includes Hayes, Zucc, McQ as likely trades. With Spooner and Namestnikov as possbilities (depending on what's out there), and a bunch of other players as the hockey equivalent of Zillow's "make me move" option.

 

[Edge]

Not necessarily on Hayes. He is young enough to come out on the other side of the rebuild. Like Zbad or Krieder. Zuc, however, should be trade bait.

I'm not sure the reward of waiting on Hayes is worth the risk.

I see a guy who is going to struggle in this system, in this role.

I think he probably does better elsewhere and holding on to him is only going to come out of our pocket.

 

[Mac n Gs]

They've given up the 5th most shots against, and 3rd most CA so far. We were the worst in both last season.

So they didn't exactly "fix' the team defense. Not that I expect an elite team defense with the roster of young kids and bad defenseman. But just pointing that part out.

The bright spot is that these are trendings down for 5v5 play. Sean Tierney has these rates over time on his public tableau:

Tableau Public

 

[GAGLine]

I'd resign Hayes. Would not resign Zucc, regardless of performance. Of course, you have to be smart about contracts and asset management.

What I'm talking about is the talk about dumping everyone not named Howden and Chytil.

What do we gain by hanging on to Hayes, Namestnikov, Spooner, McQuaid, Smith, Staal and Shattenkirk? None of these players are likely part of the team when we are ready to contend again. You can make a case for Hayes, but I can make a case for him eventually being replaced by Chytil, Howden or Andersson. Namestnikov has been playing well since his benching, but well enough that we can't replace him with a less expensive player?

I know some people have mentioned trading Zib and/or Kreider, but I don't see that happening, not by the deadline, certainly. We have plenty of other players to worry about.

 

[ElLeetch]

Just because we have some momentum does not mean we are a good team.

We gave up 40+ shots. Like clockwork, Hank is bailing the team out.

Contrary to popular opinions:

I enjoy the coaching staff.
I am glad Jimmy Vesey is having success. He works his ass off.
We are still a bottom-5 team.

5+1 in 14 isn't exactly "success". it just matches his prior two seasons in terms of production.

 

[will1066]

5+1 in 14 isn't exactly "success". it just matches his prior two seasons in terms of production.

He's had a ton of chances where he didn't cash in. He could be near or in double digits in goals if he were competent at finishing.

 

[True Blue]

I'm not sure the reward of waiting on Hayes is worth the risk.

I do not necessarily disagree. I think that I would wait to see if he can adapt to the role. However, if it is apparent that he is not and the best value is to trade him now, then go ahead and pull the trigger.

 

[Off Sides]

What do we gain by hanging on to Hayes, Namestnikov, Spooner, McQuaid, Smith, Staal and Shattenkirk? None of these players are likely part of the team when we are ready to contend again. You can make a case for Hayes, but I can make a case for him eventually being replaced by Chytil, Howden or Andersson. Namestnikov has been playing well since his benching, but well enough that we can't replace him with a less expensive player?

I know some people have mentioned trading Zib and/or Kreider, but I don't see that happening, not by the deadline, certainly. We have plenty of other players to worry about.

They add Panarin to them?