Rumor: Things Not Left Unsaid: Flyers Rumors & Media Mentions

[TheKingPin]

It’s actually interesting to consider how much rope fans gave Hextall. There was a ton of buy-in for his plan and vision. I think a lot of the extreme pessimism about Briere & Jones is actually downstream from the dissonance surrounding Hextall and his failure. I remember from 2014 through 2016, there was a huge “stick to the plan” ethos around here. And Hextall did exactly that. He just couldn’t take the prospect pool he built and take the next step to convert it into a contending team. I am far from a Hextall apologist, but you can also imagine a world where things turn out differently if Nolan Patrick became who we hoped he could be.

Now you have Briere and Jones saying mostly the right things, and we’re all super anxious that they don’t mean it and that it won’t work out. I think a lot of that comes from fans being so bought in to the early Hextall vision and ending up burned.

I get it though. I personally am waiting to see what Briere does. They are saying the exact right thing to say at every chance. Briere seems very intelligent to me. But I get it, at this point they are going to have to prove it.

 

[DancingPanther]

It’s actually interesting to consider how much rope fans gave Hextall. There was a ton of buy-in for his plan and vision. I think a lot of the extreme pessimism about Briere & Jones is actually downstream from the dissonance surrounding Hextall and his failure. I remember from 2014 through 2016, there was a huge “stick to the plan” ethos around here. And Hextall did exactly that. He just couldn’t take the prospect pool he built and take the next step to convert it into a contending team. I am far from a Hextall apologist, but you can also imagine a world where things turn out differently if Nolan Patrick became who we hoped he could be.

Now you have Briere and Jones saying mostly the right things, and we’re all super anxious that they don’t mean it and that it won’t work out. I think a lot of that comes from fans being so bought in to the early Hextall vision and ending up burned.

Not really, there's been pretty tangible evidence of not a damn thing changing. Look no further than Marc Staal.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Building the prospect pool is the easy part in every sport. That’s the big difference in what I’ve personally learned in the last decade.

Of course we knew from concepts like marginal wins in baseball that improving your team gets significantly harder as your team gets better, but think of how we as fanbases view prospects. The names don’t even matter. There’s an assumed level of success because there’s no fail state that presents itself yet. That could be flaming out via Patrick or as simple as organizational malpractice in the Gostisbehere mold. That only comes with time.

 

[Random Forest]

Not really, there's been pretty tangible evidence of not a damn thing changing. Look no further than Marc Staal.

Blah blah blah. I have zero interest in the “not a damn thing has changed” line.

Again, everyone loved Hextall’s plan which was to accumulate picks and stack the prospect pool. That was massively different from the Holmgren years. And the Fletcher years were certainly different (and worse). Just shut up with repeating the same line. Things are clearly different and have been under every leadership group. And it might be worse this time! Failure has been the only constant, but it’s just nonsense for likes to keep repeating this at this point.

 

[ajgoal]

I think that was the main reason, but Hextall seem to think Umberger could still be a useful 3rd line and he wasn't.

From what I remember of the talk with Hextall at the STH event, he did. The team did not know that his back was completely shot before he arrived. IIRC, Hextall told us that Umberger was sleeping on the floor half the time just to manage his waking pain.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

It’s actually interesting to consider how much rope fans gave Hextall. There was a ton of buy-in for his plan and vision. I think a lot of the extreme pessimism about Briere & Jones is actually downstream from the dissonance surrounding Hextall and his failure. I remember from 2014 through 2016, there was a huge “stick to the plan” ethos around here. And Hextall did exactly that. He just couldn’t take the prospect pool he built and take the next step to convert it into a contending team. I am far from a Hextall apologist, but you can also imagine a world where things turn out differently if Nolan Patrick became who we hoped he could be.

Now you have Briere and Jones saying mostly the right things, and we’re all super anxious that they don’t mean it and that it won’t work out. I think a lot of that comes from fans being so bought in to the early Hextall vision and ending up burned.

Yeah there was a lot Hextall love for a lot of his time here. I think the problem is with any GM is that there are some obvious good or bad moves, but a lot of what they do can't be judged in real-time. A big signing or a big trade you can usually say that was good or bad without needing hindsight but most of the smaller things is what you won't know whether they were good or bad until you see things play out.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I can fully understand why people aren't eager to give a group of dudes that were all part of (or present for) the prior regime a lot of rope or optimism. They changed absolutely as little as possible.

 

[VladDrag]

It’s actually interesting to consider how much rope fans gave Hextall. There was a ton of buy-in for his plan and vision. I think a lot of the extreme pessimism about Briere & Jones is actually downstream from the dissonance surrounding Hextall and his failure. I remember from 2014 through 2016, there was a huge “stick to the plan” ethos around here. And Hextall did exactly that. He just couldn’t take the prospect pool he built and take the next step to convert it into a contending team. I am far from a Hextall apologist, but you can also imagine a world where things turn out differently if Nolan Patrick became who we hoped he could be.

Now you have Briere and Jones saying mostly the right things, and we’re all super anxious that they don’t mean it and that it won’t work out. I think a lot of that comes from fans being so bought in to the early Hextall vision and ending up burned.

Retrospectively, I think people gave Hextall rope because he came in and was operating in new ways. He made some cap-clearing room, made a few decent draft picks early on and that bought him lots of leeway. Prior to Hextall, the Flyers gave away draft picks like crazy 2nd rounders were not valuable at all to this organization. But with Hextall, there was a plan, and you could see that.

We also have to remember, there was a GM between Hextall and DB, and he was god awful. Hextall was fired in part because of his unwillingness to work with those in power. Those who fired Hextall hired this other GM. That same group of individuals hired DB. That itself has probably bought more question marks around the current leadership group than anything Hextall did, IMO.

My biggest issue with this leadership group is I don't know what the plan is. They are saying its a 3-year rebuild but there is also talk of them re-signing valuable assets. If it's truly a rebuild, there should be zero discussions around re-signing a 29 and 30 year old defenseman -- one of them is a bottom pairing defenseman. I will have a better idea after this TDL, and, so I'm reserving my full judgement, but the fact that those reports are out there is concerning if you believe this team is/should be rebuilding.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Umberger shot over 13% & had 8 PP goals in his last year in Columbus so he finished with 18 goals in 74 games that year. I think they got fooled on the surface there.

 

[pooch]

Retrospectively, I think players gave Hextall rope because he came in and was operating in new ways. He made some cap-clearing room, made a few decent draft picks early on and that bought him lots of leeway. Prior to Hextall, the Flyers gave away draft picks like crazy 2nd rounders were not valuable at all to this organization. But with Hextall, there was a plan, and you could see that.

We also have to remember, there was a GM between Hextall and DB, and he was god awful. Hextall was fired in part because of his unwillingness to work with those in power. Those who fired Hextall hired this other GM. That same group of individuals hired DB. That itself has probably bought more question marks around the current leadership group than anything Hextall did, IMO.

My biggest issue with this leadership group is I don't know what the plan is. They are saying its a 3-year rebuild but there is also talk of them re-signing valuable assets. If it's truly a rebuild, there should be zero discussions around re-signing a 29 and 30 year old defenseman -- one of them is a bottom pairing defenseman. I will have a better idea after this TDL, and, so I'm reserving my full judgement, but the fact that those reports are out there is concerning if you believe this team is/should be rebuilding.

I wouldn't mind if they signed Seeler or Walker to a short term deal in Free Agency after they were traded at the deadline...to sign them before is insane.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I do feel like I’m taking crazy pills sometimes with how Michkov’s existence is framed. If you added prime Kucherov to this team now, are they a true contender? What about if you do it after 2 more years of Couturier aging?

 

[Random Forest]

I can fully understand why people aren't eager to give a group of dudes that were all part of (or present for) the prior regime a lot of rope or optimism. They changed absolutely as little as possible.

Nobody is asking you to give them any rope or optimism. The tiresome trope of “nothing has changed” is what people have the biggest objection to. It’s just stupid and annoying because it’s about 90% of the content from some of you and flat out untrue.

Even if “being part of or present for” the prior regime meant anything, Briere was “part of” the prior regime beginning in March 2022. A full 3+ year after Fletcher was hired and barely one year from when Fletcher was fired. Stop pretending these are the same people.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Nobody is asking you to give them any rope or optimism. The tiresome trope of “nothing has changed” is what people have the biggest objection to. It’s just stupid and annoying because it’s about 90% of the content from some of you and flat out untrue.

Even if “being part of or present for” the prior regime meant anything, Briere was “part of” the prior regime beginning in March 2022. A full 3+ year after Fletcher was hired and barely one year from when Fletcher was fired. Stop pretending these are the same people.

I'm not. I'm very positive and I think everything has changed, and the fact that so many practices remain in place unchanged is all a front. Stop assigning beliefs to people.

 

[Random Forest]

I do feel like I’m taking crazy pills sometimes with how Michkov’s existence is framed. If you added prime Kucherov to this team now, are they a true contender? What about if you do it after 2 more years of Couturier aging?

So this is where I start to object a bit. Let me stipulate that “adding a prime Kucherov” would not make them a contender, but it’s not just adding a prime Kucherov. It’s also adding what Kucherov makes the rest of the team. It’s what Farabee or Foerster or Frost are with Kucherov. It’s what the power play is with Kucherov. It’s what Sanheim is with Kucherov. I don’t want to oversell the impact of one player, but the impact is absolutely greater than the sum of the parts, so I reject the framing.

Every player on Tampa benefits immensely from Kucherov’s presence. Brandon Hagel, for example, is not a PPG guy if you drop him on the Flyers. Even Brayden Point and Hedman and Sergachev are not the players they are if you dropped them on the Flyers.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

So this is where I start to object a bit. Let me stipulate that “adding a prime Kucherov” would not make them a contender, but it’s not just adding a prime Kucherov. It’s also adding what Kucherov makes the rest of the team. It’s what Farabee or Foerster or Frost are with Kucherov. It’s what the power play is with Kucherov. It’s what Sanheim is with Kucherov. I don’t want to oversell the impact of one player, but the impact is absolutely greater than the sum of the parts, so I reject the framing.

Every player on Tampa benefits immensely from Kucherov’s presence. Brandon Hagel, for example, is not a PPG guy if you drop him on the Flyers.

That doesn’t go against anything I said. We all get to make our individual determinations on what the addition does and how.

It’s not as simple as penciling in 100 more Points. But it’s also still not enough for me.

 

[Random Forest]

That doesn’t go against anything I said. We all get to make our individual determinations on what and how the addition does.

It’s not as simple as penciling in 100 more Points. But it’s also still not enough for me.

I don’t think anyone’s saying “it’s enough” though. I think some people are over their skis on projecting Michkov’s impact, but I don’t see anybody saying that all the pieces are here already.

 

[sauce88]

I don't even think Kucherov himself could overpower the ineptitude of a Rocky Thompson designed powerplay.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I don’t think anyone’s saying “it’s enough” though. I think some people are over their skis on projecting Michkov’s impact, but I don’t see anybody saying that all the pieces are here already.

I think the org thinks it’s significantly closer than most fans do.

I’ll be more than happy be wrong on this. The deadline is a clear fulcrum point.

 

[Beef Invictus]

So this is where I start to object a bit. Let me stipulate that “adding a prime Kucherov” would not make them a contender, but it’s not just adding a prime Kucherov. It’s also adding what Kucherov makes the rest of the team. It’s what Farabee or Foerster or Frost are with Kucherov. It’s what the power play is with Kucherov. It’s what Sanheim is with Kucherov. I don’t want to oversell the impact of one player, but the impact is absolutely greater than the sum of the parts, so I reject the framing.

Every player on Tampa benefits immensely from Kucherov’s presence. Brandon Hagel, for example, is not a PPG guy if you drop him on the Flyers. Even Brayden Point and Hedman and Sergachev are not the players they are if you dropped them on the Flyers.

Being serious, I think everyone here understands the massive trickle down effect talent has at the top of the lineup. That's why people have mourned statements and actions emphasizing building from the bottom up rather than the top down. We've seen how much a diminished Couturier helps everything compared to not having him, for instance. We've seen examples on this team failing to do anything but fail. We can see TB decide to go bottom-up with Jeannot and fall on their faces.

But we've had great talents. Giroux, Couturier, and Voracek all at once; even with them pushing talent down the lineup, it didn't change the fact that the team's priorities (priorities which have been disturbingly present since Homer and Clarke were GMs) emphasize just punting on the bottom of the lineup in favor of "character." They always have gaping, crushing weaknesses. Michkov can't play for 60 minutes. Eventually, the slobs will hit the ice, and you are looking at a significant chunk of games where the team is at a big disadvantage because of it. Games and series can be (and are) lost on that. This team does no take depth seriously. They still seek to fill specific "character" roles annually, and those spots are always line and pair killers. Killing an entire line makes success hard.


But it's a new era and all, so I'm optimistic and positive that they've learned from their pasts.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I think the org thinks it’s significantly closer than most fans do.

I’ll be more than happy be wrong on this. The deadline is a clear fulcrum point.

Year 2 of a 3 Year Rebuild. Just about done. You're pretty much looking at the final product.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

I think the org thinks it’s significantly closer than most fans do.

I’ll be more than happy be wrong on this. The deadline is a clear fulcrum point.

I think that will show us the truth about what the organization thinks for sure, but not necessarily if they are correct in their thinking one way or another. I am fully in the this team sucks and is playing better than they actually are and need to sell everything camp and also fully in the I doubt they will sell everything (anything?) camp. Until they put their money where their mouth is, it is totally reasonable to assume they won't change or haven't changed.

That being said, like you I would love to be wrong about these things. Maybe they don't sell and this team makes a deep playoff run. The biggest fear, and because of how things typically go for Philly sports, is that they don't sell (or worse they buy) and THEN miss the playoffs and THEN these pieces they otherwise would have sold are walking in free agency or re-signed long term. That's the worst case scenario and also the scenario I am expecting.

 

[Kelmitchell2]

I think that was the main reason, but Hextall seem to think Umberger could still be a useful 3rd line and he wasn't.

Thank You - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Thank you for the amazing 9 years

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BUYOUT HISTORY​

LENGTH: 2 YEARS
TEAM: Philadelphia Flyers
VALUE: $3,000,000
DATE: Jun. 16, 2016
TYPE: Standard

SEASON		COST	CAP HIT
2016-17		$1,500,000	$1,600,000
2017-18		$1,500,000	$1,500,000

Thank You - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Thank you for the amazing 9 years

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BUYOUT HISTORY​

LENGTH: 4 YEARS
TEAM: Columbus Blue Jackets
VALUE: $5,000,000
DATE: Jun. 29, 2017
TYPE: Standard

SEASON		COST	CAP HIT
2017-18		$1,250,000	$1,500,000
2018-19		$1,250,000	$3,000,000
2019-20		$1,250,000	$1,250,000
2020-21		$1,250,000	$1,250,000

Oh yeah, I wasn't a fan of the trade tbh. I knew umberger was cooked, but I did know we were in a cap crunch, so I'm not saying hextall was right by any means lol

 

[Appleyard]

I do feel like I’m taking crazy pills sometimes with how Michkov’s existence is framed. If you added prime Kucherov to this team now, are they a true contender? What about if you do it after 2 more years of Couturier aging?

Yeh, there are key pieces that every team really has to have to be a contender... not a fluke 1 year in Conference Semis... not 1-2 years where flirt with 100 points... but a team that will be in the mix amongst top ~8 teams in the league consistently for ~4-5 years minimum.

And it is crazy that more teams, writers etc don't speak about it... but SURELY they know that without a 1C and 1D they are going to be a ~2nd round exit team even with Michkov. Even if Farabee, Tippett, Frost, Foerster, Brink, Cates, York, Drysdale, Bonk, Andrae, Ersson etc ALL hit like the ~75th-90th centile of their potential.

Because even with great depth? 4 lines you can roll? ~6x 50 point forwards? A solid goalie? 4x top 4 Dmen?

If you don't have ~3 guys who are top tier talents, like best ~12-15 in their position in the league? Just so hard to contend vs the teams that have those gamebreakers.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Year 2 of a 3 Year Rebuild. Just about done. You're pretty much looking at the final product.

weird how it looks just like the old product..

its like nothing has changed..

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Year 2 of a 3 Year Rebuild. Just about done. You're pretty much looking at the final product.

They can shut me up quickly. There is a series of moves they can make that has me tilting positively in a couple weeks and on board in July.

I think that will show us the truth about what the organization thinks for sure, but not necessarily if they are correct in their thinking one way or another. I am fully in the this team sucks and is playing better than they actually are and need to sell everything camp and also fully in the I doubt they will sell everything (anything?) camp. Until they put their money where their mouth is, it is totally reasonable to assume they won't change or haven't changed.

That being said, like you I would love to be wrong about these things. Maybe they don't sell and this team makes a deep playoff run. The biggest fear, and because of how things typically go for Philly sports, is that they don't sell (or worse they buy) and THEN miss the playoffs and THEN these pieces they otherwise would have sold are walking in free agency or re-signed long term. That's the worst case scenario and also the scenario I am expecting.

I will even go a step further into praise than you do. They're playing above their subpar talent level because Tortorella excels at propping up that kind of team.

So as you said, how Briere handles this shows you everything you need to know. Does this org have the ability to make the difficulty decisions? Can it evaluate itself critically? Most NHL teams still run on the path of least resistance.