Rumor: Things Not Left Unsaid 3 - Flyers Rumors and Media Mentions: Never Ending Circles

[Beef Invictus]

While I'm at it, the Flyers have always drafted guys like Frost/Farabee/Ciernik.

Then they spend years raging at them for not being 4th Line Grindybois.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

No, he's not. Elite defenders are definitely not a dime a dozen.
Flyers have three, Couts, Foerster and Cates. All have below average speed, but elite IQ.

When Cates came back from injury, along with elite defense he was scoring at a 3rd line rate. Give him a top 6 center and the right RW and I wouldn't be surprised if he scores at a second line rate as the glue guy (does the dirty work, CYA for his linemanes, same with Foerster) on a line.

But it's a matter of balance, you want these types, you also want a Michkov, TK, Farabee, guys who score, as well as pure speed like Tippett, Frost, Poehling and in a couple years, Avon, Tuomaala and Luchanko.

Sure, ideally you want 12 Lindros (without concussions) but in the real world, you're going to build a roster with flawed players - the key is to construct a roster with balance that creates synergies between players so that lines are more than the sum of the talents of the three players.

So what kind of contract will you want to see the Flyers give Cates next summer?

 

[BiggE]

Do you have faith the Flyers holy trinity can be competent and have a competent plan?

I don’t even have faith that they can find their own assholes with a flashlight, map and a satellite GPS.

 

[Tarpongg]

No, he's not. Elite defenders are definitely not a dime a dozen.
Flyers have three, Couts, Foerster and Cates. All have below average speed, but elite IQ.

When Cates came back from injury, along with elite defense he was scoring at a 3rd line rate. Give him a top 6 center and the right RW and I wouldn't be surprised if he scores at a second line rate as the glue guy (does the dirty work, CYA for his linemanes, same with Foerster) on a line.

But it's a matter of balance, you want these types, you also want a Michkov, TK, Farabee, guys who score, as well as pure speed like Tippett, Frost, Poehling and in a couple years, Avon, Tuomaala and Luchanko.

Sure, ideally you want 12 Lindros (without concussions) but in the real world, you're going to build a roster with flawed players - the key is to construct a roster with balance that creates synergies between players so that lines are more than the sum of the talents of the three players.

I dream about a roster of 12 Zac Rinaldo’s. If Frosty had half Zac’s heart … shudder …

 

[Tarpongg]

So far so good? What a shock. Well had Ivan not asked out he wouldn't have been traded. No issue with the deals though you fail to mention the 2 bad cap dumps he had to take back for 2 years. You make it sound like Briere fleeced the Kings and AVs. A better GM extracts a little more coming the Flyers way is my opinion. You also fail to mention he lost the #5 overall pick on his watch and he was 100% at fault.

So now 2024 was a holding pattern. Thought 2023 was a holding type pattern? Love the company line that now 2025 is the key. Then it will be no 2026 is what we targeted.

Briere has done a bland job much like the 2 clowns before him. He is a scared dog to do anything.
He didn't do anything of substance. Traded guys who the other CO-GM wanted gone or a guy that asked out. Refuses to trade anyone of of somewhat real value. I have zero confidence in the 3 sttoges.

They players in the system stink or are so far away we can't even evaluate them yet outside of Bonk and maybe 2/3 others.

If this were truly a rebuild, it would be the most passive and indifferent rebuild in NHL history

 

[Tarpongg]

Well he is a RFA that will need to be qualified this summer. What kind of contract you giving him?

Hmm.. Dani has those late firsts he could send to any team contemplating offer sheeting Cates. A peace offering of sorts

 

[BiggE]

Cates 24g 65pts in 157 games, average ES possession stats

Hathaway 65g 139pts in 539 games, average ES possession stats

Laughton 95g 238pts in 601 games, mediocre ES possession stats

These type of dime a dozen players are what the Flyers value above all else. How can anyone have the slightest shred of faith in this organization?

 

[Curufinwe]

And in Deslauriers and Poehling you have five bottom six guys averaging $2.33m, and Deslauriers is totally washed.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Cates 24g 65pts in 157 games, average ES possession stats

Hathaway 65g 139pts in 539 games, average ES possession stats

Laughton 95g 238pts in 601 games, mediocre ES possession stats

These type of dime a dozen players are what the Flyers value above all else. How can anyone have the slightest shred of faith in this organization?

hey those guys are foundational pillars...

what they bring cant be measured..

besides you dont win in todays NHL by filling the net with pucks..

 

[04hockey]

No, he's not. Elite defenders are definitely not a dime a dozen.
Flyers have three, Couts, Foerster and Cates. All have below average speed, but elite IQ.

When Cates came back from injury, along with elite defense he was scoring at a 3rd line rate. Give him a top 6 center and the right RW and I wouldn't be surprised if he scores at a second line rate as the glue guy (does the dirty work, CYA for his linemanes, same with Foerster) on a line.

But it's a matter of balance, you want these types, you also want a Michkov, TK, Farabee, guys who score, as well as pure speed like Tippett, Frost, Poehling and in a couple years, Avon, Tuomaala and Luchanko.

Sure, ideally you want 12 Lindros (without concussions) but in the real world, you're going to build a roster with flawed players - the key is to construct a roster with balance that creates synergies between players so that lines are more than the sum of the talents of the three players.

some of these posters forget there's 31 other NHL GM's trying to do the same thing

It's not easy .....

 

[deadhead]

Cates 24g 65pts in 157 games, average ES possession stats

Hathaway 65g 139pts in 539 games, average ES possession stats

Laughton 95g 238pts in 601 games, mediocre ES possession stats

These type of dime a dozen players are what the Flyers value above all else. How can anyone have the slightest shred of faith in this organization?

Average ES possession stats?
5x5 SVA
Hathaway xGF% 56.27, HDCF 57.27%
Cates xGF 60.98%, HDCF 62.95%

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Average ES possession stats?
5x5 SVA
Hathaway xGF% 56.27, HDCF 57.27%
Cates xGF 60.98%, HDCF 62.95%

What kind of contract do you want to give Cates next summer?

 

[Beef Invictus]

some of these posters forget there's 31 other NHL GM's trying to do the same thing

It's not easy .....

No, we all remember that very well. It's why we mock the Flyers desire to make other GMs happy and minimize their chances at acquiring talent.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Average ES possession stats?
5x5 SVA
Hathaway xGF% 56.27, HDCF 57.27%
Cates xGF 60.98%, HDCF 62.95%

You haven't really don't anything to debunk his point. Cates remains a bottom 6/4th Line Player. The Flyers continue to overvalue that area of the lineup to their own detriment and inefficiency.

It brings them no closer to being good enough to win, while limiting their chances to do something that can move the team forward.

 

[deadhead]

Cates is a middle six forward on any team in the NHL.
He's the kind of depth that SC contenders covet.

 

[trostol]

I am clearly not high enough for that comment

 

[Pablo Sanchez]

Cates is a middle six forward on any team in the NHL.
He's the kind of depth that SC contenders covet.

Please don’t ever leave us again

 

[Beef Invictus]

Cates is a middle six forward on any team in the NHL.
He's the kind of depth that SC contenders covet.

He really isn't middle six, and this team isn't close to being a contender. Sounds like a guy we should trade to become better, if they're rebuilding like you pretend.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I mean come on what contender has an offensive black hole as a serious option for their second line?

 

[freakydallas13]

Imagine thinking Cates could be on the second line of any NHL team. I'm sure every team in the league is scrambling to put a player on pace for 25 points in 82 games on their second line.

 

[Sombastate]

Deadhead should be the White House Press Secretary at one point in his life. I would love to see him spin shit that actually matters

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I have to object to quite a bit of the framing around Foerster. I keep seeing him mentioned as a defensive archetype and/or specifically pointing to his Shot as a super meaningful data point. Those both miss the forest for the trees.

There is some selection bias in what I’m about to say because it’s typically skilled players who hit the NHL at 20, but Foerster passes that bar on multiple axes anyway. Skaters who put up elite defensive impacts at comparable ages have a strong tendency to figure everything out. Not just the most obvious attributes they have.

I think he’s the 2nd best 25 and under asset they have, especially if you include contract status. I’m not sure I can even make much of an argument to the contrary.

 

[04hockey]

barring injuries

York - big step up, 3rd yr's the charm
Drysdale - step up
Frost - steps up, more consistent
Farabee - finds himself, more consistent
Foerster - steps up bigly
Brink - knows he has to score more and be consistent
Tippett - will be Tippett
Zamula - steps up
Sanheim, Seeler, Coots, TK, Cates, Poehling and Hathaway - always consistent
Risto..... we shall see
Michkov..... we shall see
Ginning - hope he makes the team
wonder what rookies, AHL'ers make the big time ?
goaltending will be fine
usually a new group of young players get their "groove" together after 2/3 yrs

think it's gonna be a v-e-r-y interesting season
trust me

 

[deadhead]

Imagine thinking Cates could be on the second line of any NHL team. I'm sure every team in the league is scrambling to put a player on pace for 25 points in 82 games on their second line.

How much you score depends on your usage, and who you play with.

Here's who Cates played with last year:
Hathaway 264
Poehling 246
Farabee 153
Brink 134

Put him on a top 6 line with say Frost and TK or Couts and Michkov and he'll score a lot more.
Not because he'd suddenly become a great offensive player, but b/c he'd do the dirty work to set up better offensive players - we saw that with Lindblom before he got cancer.

Now the problem with Cates at center is he lacks playmaking skills, so he kills a line offensively, at LW, that's not his responsibility. So he can center a shutdown line with a lead in the 3rd period, but not someone you want in the role on a regular basis.

With Laughton, he has decent offensive skills but can't handle the defensive responsibilities of center.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Who decided to play him at center and continue to do so despite dreadful offensive production?

Was that an example of the Flyers obsession with the archetype and how the Flyers organization handles that type of player? He received ice time that he didn't earn while others were shoved in the dog house.

Hell, shoehorning him at Center is the main complaint that this board has with regards to Cates.