Rumor: Things Not Left Unsaid 3 - Flyers Rumors and Media Mentions: Never Ending Circles

[blackjackmulligan]

Inadvertent tanking lowers the stakes for new management, expectations get so low that they have a free path to making drastic changes, a "honeymoon" period. Players will accept anything, and the owners gave already seen sales plummet. And it only takes one or two deals to hit rock bottom (or often a fortuitous injury).

To tank a mediocre team takes a lot of work, you may have stars with NMCs, good young players that make it hard to be really bad, and so on. I mean you're trying to turn a 85-90 point team into a 50-60 point team, that's hard to do overnight. So 2-3 years tearing it down, 3-4 years in the bottom ten, then 2-3 years building it up to a SC contender. 7-10 years of futility, with no guarantee that you'll even garner a franchise player (Rangers got Lafreniere and Kukko with #1 and #2).

If all that pain doesn't give you a better shot than rebuilding without tanking, what's the point?

Flyers had two shots to "tank", after the Carter/Richards trade and after 2018-19.

By the time Briere took over, the team was firmly ensconced in mediocrity, too much talent to hit rock bottom, not enough quality veterans with expiring contracts to easily clear house (Rangers had a bunch of guys on their last season).

At this point, it makes sense to build on what they have, check back in three years, if it doesn't work, the new GM will have plenty of assets to add a new wave of young talent will taking a step back for a couple years (i.e trade the guys in their mid-20s for draft picks and guys in low 20s and draft high).

If it doesn't work, it won't , the CO-GM should be fired as that will then be 5 years on the job. Next up is....

 

[CerpinTaxt]

Sure, probably not top 5, but better than they ended up. Maybe if the pick 3 spots higher, they don't reach on a guy. Maybe they can package those extra assets to move up. Who knows. But the little things add up.

I think the losing culture thing is overrated. Didn't stop teams like Colorado and Chicago from becoming top teams. You know what I'd bet is a fun environment for young players? Playing with other young, talented players even if the team is not winning as much as you'd like. Also playing for an org that seems to value you, instead of putting you through trials and tribulations to "earn" your time over wasted up vets. Besides, I thought TORTS was a development guru who gets the most out of mediocre rosters. I think the young guys would have.been just fine.

He gets the most out of mediocre rosters cause he refuses to play the young talented players for really stupid reasons. Just waiting to hear his explanation for the 1st game he decides to sit Michkov

 

[deadhead]

Do you have faith the Flyers holy trinity can be competent and have a competent plan?

So far, so good. Briere turned Provorov into (2) 1st rd, (2) 2nd rd picks. Hasn't spent real assets on veterans (Hathaway is affordable contract). Seemed to have drafted well.

Two key tests coming up, the 2025 draft and summer 2026. The draft is obvious, but by summer 2026 he'll finally have surplus talent, how he maneuvers at that point. Can he turn quantity into quality?

This summer was a holding pattern, Briere did little b/c there was little to do. Most in system prospects are 2-4 years away, the players in LHV are mostly 4th line/3rd pair types. He didn't patch to win now. They'd like to make the playoffs, just won't pay to play.

He gets the most out of mediocre rosters cause he refuses to play the young talented players for really stupid reasons. Just waiting to hear his explanation for the 1st game he decides to sit Michkov

What young talented players?

 

[blackjackmulligan]

So far, so good. Briere turned Provorov into (2) 1st rd, (2) 2nd rd picks. Hasn't spent real assets on veterans (Hathaway is affordable contract). Seemed to have drafted well.

Two key tests coming up, the 2025 draft and summer 2026. The draft is obvious, but by summer 2026 he'll finally have surplus talent, how he maneuvers at that point. Can he turn quantity into quality?

This summer was a holding pattern, Briere did little b/c there was little to do. Most in system prospects are 2-4 years away, the players in LHV are mostly 4th line/3rd pair types. He didn't patch to win now. They'd like to make the playoffs, just won't pay to play.


What young talented players?

So far so good? What a shock. Well had Ivan not asked out he wouldn't have been traded. No issue with the deals though you fail to mention the 2 bad cap dumps he had to take back for 2 years. You make it sound like Briere fleeced the Kings and AVs. A better GM extracts a little more coming the Flyers way is my opinion. You also fail to mention he lost the #5 overall pick on his watch and he was 100% at fault.

So now 2024 was a holding pattern. Thought 2023 was a holding type pattern? Love the company line that now 2025 is the key. Then it will be no 2026 is what we targeted.

Briere has done a bland job much like the 2 clowns before him. He is a scared dog to do anything.
He didn't do anything of substance. Traded guys who the other CO-GM wanted gone or a guy that asked out. Refuses to trade anyone of of somewhat real value. I have zero confidence in the 3 sttoges.

They players in the system stink or are so far away we can't even evaluate them yet outside of Bonk and maybe 2/3 others.

 

[deadhead]

Briere has always said the schedule was built around the three years they expected to wait for Michkov. The fact he's come earlier merely means they can be more hands on with his development, but nothing suggests that schedule has change, i.e. 2026 or 2027.

2026 roster?
Farabee (26) - Couts (34) - Michkov (21)
Tippett (27) - Frost (27) - TK (29)
Foerster (25) - Luchanko (20) - Brink (25)
Cates (27) - Poehling?(28) -
Avon (23), Bump (23), Tupomaala (23), Berglund (21), Powell (21)

York (26) - Sanheim (30)
Seeler (33) - Drysdale (24)
Andrae (24) - Bonk (21)
McDonald (24) - Sotheran (21)

Ersson (27), Kolosov (24), Bjarnason (21) Zavragin (21)

I expect 1-2 "compression" trades where they target a top 6 center, top 3 D-man using a combination of prospects and draft picks.

 

[Solution]

Briere has always said the schedule was built around the three years they expected to wait for Michkov. The fact he's come earlier merely means they can be more hands on with his development, but nothing suggests that schedule has change, i.e. 2026 or 2027.

2026 roster?
Farabee (26) - Couts (34) - Michkov (21)
Tippett (27) - Frost (27) - TK (29)
Foerster (25) - Luchanko (20) - Brink (25)
Cates (27) - Poehling?(28) -
Avon (23), Bump (23), Tupomaala (23), Berglund (21), Powell (21)

York (26) - Sanheim (30)
Seeler (33) - Drysdale (24)
Andrae (24) - Bonk (21)
McDonald (24) - Sotheran (21)

Ersson (27), Kolosov (24), Bjarnason (21) Zavragin (21)

I expect 1-2 "compression" trades where they target a top 6 center, top 3 D-man using a combination of prospects and draft picks.

Doesn't Hathaway's contract run through the 2026-2027 season? Shouldn't he be listed here if Seeler is as well?

 

[blackjackmulligan]

They

Briere has always said the schedule was built around the three years they expected to wait for Michkov. The fact he's come earlier merely means they can be more hands on with his development, but nothing suggests that schedule has change, i.e. 2026 or 2027.

2026 roster?
Farabee (26) - Couts (34) - Michkov (21)
Tippett (27) - Frost (27) - TK (29)
Foerster (25) - Luchanko (20) - Brink (25)
Cates (27) - Poehling?(28) -
Avon (23), Bump (23), Tupomaala (23), Berglund (21), Powell (21)

York (26) - Sanheim (30)
Seeler (33) - Drysdale (24)
Andrae (24) - Bonk (21)
McDonald (24) - Sotheran (21)

Ersson (27), Kolosov (24), Bjarnason (21) Zavragin (21)

I expect 1-2 "compression" trades where they target a top 6 center, top 3 D-man using a combination of prospects and draft picks.

They knew from jump street MM would be over sooner. Take that to the bank.

They have no prospects they will need to trade to get what you suggest. They have only a very few with any type of real value.

that lineup is comical really. Show the ones you posted for the last 5 years!!! Would honestly like to see it.

So you are re-signing RP and Cates? What kind of contract you giving them both? Where is Risto?

 

[deadhead]

Doesn't Hathaway's contract run through the 2026-2027 season? Shouldn't he be listed here if Seeler is as well?

Maybe. I expect most of the veterans other than Couts and Sanheim to be gone.

Seeler is a placeholder as well. Just don't know who'll replace him in 2-3 years when he's finished caddying for Drysdale (either Drysdale emerges as a top 4 or they move on, but either way, no longer need Seeler).

I doubt they use the (3) 1sts in 2025 and 1 in 2026, same with the 2nd rd picks.
Maybe draft 5-6 players over those two years and use some of those picks in trades or offer sheets.

 

[trostol]

i want to love something as much as DH loves the Flyers management

 

[deadhead]

They

They knew from jump street MM would be over sooner. Take that to the bank.

They have no prospects they will need to trade to get what you suggest. They have only a very few with any type of real value.

that lineup is comical really. Show the ones you posted for the last 5 years!!! Would honestly like to see it.

So you are re-signing RP and Cates? What kind of contract you giving them both? Where is Risto?

Definitely resigning Cates, Flyer fans don't appreciate him b/c of obsession with "skill," but he had a great second half after returning from injury. You're not going to break the bank for him, but he's a better player than Laughton.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Definitely resigning Cates, Flyer fans don't appreciate him b/c of obsession with "skill," but he had a great second half after returning from injury. You're not going to break the bank for him, but he's a better player than Laughton.

Well he is a RFA that will need to be qualified this summer. What kind of contract you giving him?

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Maybe. I expect most of the veterans other than Couts and Sanheim to be gone.

Seeler is a placeholder as well. Just don't know who'll replace him in 2-3 years when he's finished caddying for Drysdale (either Drysdale emerges as a top 4 or they move on, but either way, no longer need Seeler).

I doubt they use the (3) 1sts in 2025 and 1 in 2026, same with the 2nd rd picks.
Maybe draft 5-6 players over those two years and use some of those picks in trades or offer sheets.

Once they have the needed cap space, if they have it, they will try to buy the 1st line center and top pair dman. They will overpay for 2 players that don't fit the bill.

Seeler is as replaceable as the underwear you have on. Not even a concern. If they cant find an in- house replacement, which they may not, then that is very sad.

Offer sheets lol. "Jonesy" said the want every deal to be fair and work with other teams. Plus Danny is a little scared dog to even attempt it.

I agree they will trade some picks.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

i want to love something as much as DH loves the Flyers management

umm he is Flyers management....

 

[freakydallas13]

Definitely resigning Cates, Flyer fans don't appreciate him b/c of obsession with "skill," but he had a great second half after returning from injury. You're not going to break the bank for him, but he's a better player than Laughton.

Damn Flyers fans and their obsession with "skill". If only they valued things like truculence and gumption, we'd have a real hockey team consarn it!

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Flyers fans are perfectly accepting of Cates the player. As always our issue has been with the Flyers obsession with the archetype and how the Flyers organization handles that type of player.

 

[deadhead]

Flyers fans are perfectly accepting of Cates the player. As always our issue has been with the Flyers obsession with the archetype and how the Flyers organization handles that type of player.

This is an ongoing urban myth.

How do TK, Farabee, Michkov and Tippett fit that "archtype."
Or Brink, Barkey, Gendron, Pautov, Bump, Rizzo, Avon, Ciernik?
Luchanko was drafted for speed, not size.

Maybe Foerster, but he also has the best shot on the team.
Berglund, Kaplan, Ruohonen. Powell.

Cates is very smart, but he's average size.

 

[trostol]

This is an ongoing urban myth.

How do TK, Farabee, Michkov and Tippett fit that "archtype."
Or Brink, Barkey, Gendron, Pautov, Bump, Rizzo, Avon, Ciernik?
Luchanko was drafted for speed, not size.

Maybe Foerster, but he also has the best shot on the team.
Berglund, Kaplan, Ruohonen. Powell.

Cates is very smart, but he's average size.

He's also a dime a dozen

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

This is an ongoing urban myth.

How do TK, Farabee, Michkov and Tippett fit that "archtype."
Or Brink, Barkey, Gendron, Pautov, Bump, Rizzo, Avon, Ciernik?
Luchanko was drafted for speed, not size.

Maybe Foerster, but he also has the best shot on the team.
Berglund, Kaplan, Ruohonen. Powell.

Cates is very smart, but he's average size.

So you're saying that Noah Cates hasn't received preferential treatment and ice time that he didn't rightfully earn?

And before you go digging up linemate ice time, stop yourself, we don't need to hear again about how they had equal linemates (when they didn't.)

 

[Sombastate]

i want to love something as much as DH loves the Flyers management

His entire defense is comparable to me explaining to my girlfriend that my dogs are 10 pounds and they will shit in the house when it rains.

Only difference is... it isn't raining

 

[Chicken N Raffls]

This is an ongoing urban myth.

How do TK, Farabee, Michkov and Tippett fit that "archtype."
Or Brink, Barkey, Gendron, Pautov, Bump, Rizzo, Avon, Ciernik?
Luchanko was drafted for speed, not size.

Maybe Foerster, but he also has the best shot on the team.
Berglund, Kaplan, Ruohonen. Powell.

Cates is very smart, but he's average size.

You forgot Frost on your list. Cates archetype is defense first, hard to play against, hustle, etc. And as HC said, he got stupid icetime because of that vs actual production. I like Cates. He's a good player to have on your 4th line. Can fill in higher as needed and not be a liability. He shouldn't be sniffing 2nd line minutes at wing, much less center.

 

[deadhead]

He's also a dime a dozen

No, he's not. Elite defenders are definitely not a dime a dozen.
Flyers have three, Couts, Foerster and Cates. All have below average speed, but elite IQ.

When Cates came back from injury, along with elite defense he was scoring at a 3rd line rate. Give him a top 6 center and the right RW and I wouldn't be surprised if he scores at a second line rate as the glue guy (does the dirty work, CYA for his linemanes, same with Foerster) on a line.

But it's a matter of balance, you want these types, you also want a Michkov, TK, Farabee, guys who score, as well as pure speed like Tippett, Frost, Poehling and in a couple years, Avon, Tuomaala and Luchanko.

Sure, ideally you want 12 Lindros (without concussions) but in the real world, you're going to build a roster with flawed players - the key is to construct a roster with balance that creates synergies between players so that lines are more than the sum of the talents of the three players.

 

[Beef Invictus]

My point is even when tanking succeeds, most of the time you end up no better than Carolina or Dallas have been the last decade.
Would you say Toronto has been considered a better bet to win a Cup during that period?

Dallas had one pick in the top ten (Heiskanen).
Carolina turned it around without tanking, BrinkA'mour established structure and 6 straight POs and two CF appearances.
Before that they inadvertently tanked (just bad management, not design).
Four of their top ten picks were "wasted," and they still won:
#7 Skinner, #5 Lindholm, #7 Fleury, #5 Hanifin. (traded for Hamilton and let him walk).
Only top ten pick on roster, #2 Svechnikov. Career high is 79 points.

Point is what matters is a competent plan, that's competently implemented.
Build a top 8 team, compete year after year and hope the Hockey Gods smile upon you one season.

Oh, no. Being Carolina or Dallas and having fun and hope. Truly a fate worse than being The Flyers forever and ever with no end in sight.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Sure, probably not top 5, but better than they ended up. Maybe if the pick 3 spots higher, they don't reach on a guy. Maybe they can package those extra assets to move up. Who knows. But the little things add up.

I think the losing culture thing is overrated. Didn't stop teams like Colorado and Chicago from becoming top teams. You know what I'd bet is a fun environment for young players? Playing with other young, talented players even if the team is not winning as much as you'd like. Also playing for an org that seems to value you, instead of putting you through trials and tribulations to "earn" your time over wasted up vets. Besides, I thought TORTS was a development guru who gets the most out of mediocre rosters. I think the young guys would have.been just fine.

If you aren't going to draft high, you better draft a lot. Best to do both if you can. The Flyers actively try to do the opposite thing. Draft low and rarely. And then treat any prospect that has potential higher than the 4th line like shit.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Let's see how Dallas would be looking if they picked Nolan Patrick and the Flyers picked Heiskanen.

Nevertheless, Dallas has been buoyed by great later drafting:

Robertson at 39
Wyatt Johnston at 23
Hintz at 49

They are not a team that tanked to success.

They would still be vastly better off than the Flyers.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Inadvertent tanking lowers the stakes for new management, expectations get so low that they have a free path to making drastic changes, a "honeymoon" period. Players will accept anything, and the owners gave already seen sales plummet. And it only takes one or two deals to hit rock bottom (or often a fortuitous injury).

To tank a mediocre team takes a lot of work, you may have stars with NMCs, good young players that make it hard to be really bad, and so on. I mean you're trying to turn a 85-90 point team into a 50-60 point team, that's hard to do overnight. So 2-3 years tearing it down, 3-4 years in the bottom ten, then 2-3 years building it up to a SC contender. 7-10 years of futility, with no guarantee that you'll even garner a franchise player (Rangers got Lafreniere and Kukko with #1 and #2).

If all that pain doesn't give you a better shot than rebuilding without tanking, what's the point?

Flyers had two shots to "tank", after the Carter/Richards trade and after 2018-19.

By the time Briere took over, the team was firmly ensconced in mediocrity, too much talent to hit rock bottom, not enough quality veterans with expiring contracts to easily clear house (Rangers had a bunch of guys on their last season).

At this point, it makes sense to build on what they have, check back in three years, if it doesn't work, the new GM will have plenty of assets to add a new wave of young talent will taking a step back for a couple years (i.e trade the guys in their mid-20s for draft picks and guys in low 20s and draft high).

Inadvertent tanking is usually a sign of massive incompetence. Teams that accident tank are not really teams that can fit their way up.