Rumor: Things Not Left Unsaid 2, More Flyers Rumors & Media Mentions: Say It Like You Mean It

[blackjackmulligan]

Does it make anyone else laugh that the 1st rounder we got back from the Giroux deal is about the be the worst pick (2nd worse) in the 1st round?

Because *of course* it is, Fletcher. OF COURSE IT IS.

Yeah should have just kept him and let him walk for nothing. Complaining about eh Giroux deal is way way down the list of things to complain about. Doesn't even make the complaint list really.

 

[Random Forest]

There are two different discussions being intertwined when they shouldn't be. If you're a 5th rounder, you don't have too much leverage. You hope to sign an ELC with anyone who will have you.

If you're Gauthier or McGroarty, you have tons of leverage. Your first contract functionally writes itself. If you go 22nd instead of 14th, there isn't much that changes for you on the front end and you get the potential upside of going to an org that's better at development and/or NHL level hockey.

I would argue in the latter situation that if you don't go into these interviews with the attitude of seeing if you want to work with these orgs, you're failing yourself. Stop defaulting to hockey pseudoculture. It exists to maximize the league, not you. It's your life. You worked your ass off to get there. Don't put it in the hands of anyone less than the people you find worthy of handling it.

So I fully agree that players should use whatever leverage they have to effectuate whatever outcome they want.

The issue is that there also has to be some consideration for teams to be able to secure talent. It’s why the draft exists in the first place, why RFA rights exist, why ELCs exist, etc. I don’t necessarily think this is a problem that needs to be “fixed”, since teams still are able to extract value for players who don’t want to sign, but this is the other side of the coin to consider.

You can say “be a good organization that players want to play for”, and sure that one part of it, but you need to have an equitable system that takes both player rights and competitive considerations into account.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

To be fair, I wouldn't want to live in like 75% of the cities in the NHL, lol.

If I was serious about making a career out of it, though, I don't think I'd be picky about who was drafting me and possibly getting my foot in the door.

Dont disagree. However, players now have more pull than they did in the past. Some will utilize it some wont.

 

[GKJ]

Does it make anyone else laugh that the 1st rounder we got back from the Giroux deal is about the be the worst pick (2nd worse) in the 1st round?

Because *of course* it is, Fletcher. OF COURSE IT IS.

There wasn’t anything else he was going to do.

 

[DancingPanther]

And now I guess the McGroarty situation could be indicative of what the Gauthier situation might have been had Briere waited.

I wouldn’t have been mad if a Gauthier for McGroarty+ swap had been the basis of a deal. But I doubt Gauthier would have wanted to sign with Winnipeg either.

Briere isn't waiting. Tortorella is saying no

 

[GKJ]

Dan Hilferty and John Middleton are on with Glen and Mike right now, for this whole hour.

Dan Hilferty wants you to know that cap space clears up ‘next year’

 

[DancingPanther]

So I fully agree that players should use whatever leverage they have to effectuate whatever outcome they want.

The issue is that there also has to be some consideration for teams to be able to secure talent. It’s why the draft exists in the first place, why RFA rights exist, why ELCs exist, etc. I don’t necessarily think this is a problem that needs to be “fixed”, since teams still are able to extract value for players who don’t want to sign, but this is the other side of the coin to consider.

You can say “be a good organization that players want to play for”, and sure that one part of it, but you need to have an equitable system that takes both player rights and competitive considerations into account.

This only happens to certain orgs in particular situations. If you don't turn your org into one of them, you'll have no issue. 98% of the time there is no issue. The Flyers are one of these problem orgs. This is a Flyers problem, not a draftee problem. They're simply sleeping in the bed they made.

 

[Random Forest]

This only happens to certain orgs in particular situations. If you don't turn your org into one of them, you'll have no issue. 98% of the time there is no issue. The Flyers are one of these problem orgs. This is a Flyers problem, not a draftee problem. They're simply sleeping in the bed they made.

Sigh, I guess everything must be an anti-Flyers screed.


*completely anodyne point that broadly player rights must be considered in balance with competitive considerations*

“but the flyers are miserable dogshit have you ever considered that???”

 

[thedjpd]

This only happens to certain orgs in particular situations. If you don't turn your org into one of them, you'll have no issue. 98% of the time there is no issue. The Flyers are one of these problem orgs. This is a Flyers problem, not a draftee problem. They're simply sleeping in the bed they made.

Yeah, this is nonsense. Calgary, Carolina, St. Louis, Winnipeg, etc.

Most teams has examples of this - the only difference is how much it’s publicized.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

So I fully agree that players should use whatever leverage they have to effectuate whatever outcome they want.

The issue is that there also has to be some consideration for teams to be able to secure talent. It’s why the draft exists in the first place, why RFA rights exist, why ELCs exist, etc. I don’t necessarily think this is a problem that needs to be “fixed”, since teams still are able to extract value for players who don’t want to sign, but this is the other side of the coin to consider.

You can say “be a good organization that players want to play for”, and sure that one part of it, but you need to have an equitable system that takes both player rights and competitive considerations into account.

Right, that's the CBA level problem. As an incoming player heading for that ELC, all you can do is work within the system in place. There are so few points at which they do have meaningful leverage, which makes it more urgent on a personal level to exploit them while they can.

I'd prefer a system that simply gives teams a pool of money, sort of a combination of the two arms of MLB talent acquisition. It seems to me that allowing people to choose whether they want more money or a location more suitable to their lifestyle or to play for a GM they've known since they were a kid makes sense. I have no desire to imprint my organizational preferences on other people. But I also understand that's never going to happen and why.

Obligatory: Adopt Gold drafting if we're going to keep it. We should be rooting for our teams to win games.

 

[Tarpongg]

Dan Hilferty and John Middleton are on with Glen and Mike right now, for this whole hour.

Dan Hilferty wants you to know that cap space clears up ‘next year’

Oh goodie. Who are the 32yo’s we can sign to 6 year contracts? They are chomping at the bit

 

[blackjackmulligan]

This only happens to certain orgs in particular situations. If you don't turn your org into one of them, you'll have no issue. 98% of the time there is no issue. The Flyers are one of these problem orgs. This is a Flyers problem, not a draftee problem. They're simply sleeping in the bed they made.

It has happened once to the Flyers so now they are a problem organization? How so?

Flyers cleared messed up with Cutter. Could have easily signed him when he wanted to be signed. 100% on them though don't see this type of issue as a problem.

 

[Bigkarl]

We pray he doesn’t even know it’s on

I was going to say I seriously doubt Torts could even name a player in the draft. He does the bare minimum when coaching his team, I find it hard to believe he's burning the midnight oil scouting the draft.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

I was going to say I seriously doubt Torts could even name a player in the draft. He does the bare minimum when coaching his team, I find it hard to believe he's burning the midnight oil scouting the draft.

I agree.

What I mean is he telling them what type of players to look for and what to stay away from. Things of that nature.

 

[Redpath]

I was going to say I seriously doubt Torts could even name a player in the draft. He does the bare minimum when coaching his team, I find it hard to believe he's burning the midnight oil scouting the draft.

The Flyers went out of their way to court and select a Michigan-scoring, KHL-contracted, undersized Russian winger instead of Ryan Leonard, a prototypical hockey man's choice and born-to-be Flyer.

If that wasn't proof that Tortorella has no say on the team's drafting, then nothing will be.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

Friedman said McGroaty may be on the block pulling a Cutter

I'll be honest, I like the guy a lot. And while I f***ing hate Torts, he would 100% be a Torts kind of a guy, but beneficial to the future of Flyers. I do think if he's on the block, they should try to snare him.

 

[FatTugboatFlahr]

The Flyers went out of their way to court and select a Michigan-scoring, KHL-contracted, undersized Russian winger instead of Ryan Leonard, a prototypical hockey man's choice and born-to-be Flyer.

If that wasn't proof that Tortorella has no say on the team's drafting, then nothing will be.

He has no say? or maybe Danny/Jonesy simply said this is kid were taking if he's there and Torts agreed/didn't object.

 

[Redpath]

He has no say? or maybe Danny/Jonesy simply said this is kid were taking if he's there and Torts agreed/didn't object.

Danny/Jonesy simply saying "this is the kid we're taking" would indicate that Torts had no say, yes.

Maybe Torts could have agreed, but that opens a whole other can of worms about the preconceived notions about which types of players that Tortorella would agree to target in the draft.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

The Flyers went out of their way to court and select a Michigan-scoring, KHL-contracted, undersized Russian winger instead of Ryan Leonard, a prototypical hockey man's choice and born-to-be Flyer.

If that wasn't proof that Tortorella has no say on the team's drafting, then nothing will be.

Well, imo taking MM was a no brainer. Not so sure that is any proof.

 

[FatTugboatFlahr]

Danny/Jonesy simply saying "this is the kid we're taking" would indicate that Torts had no say, yes.

Maybe Torts could have agreed, but that opens a whole other can of worms about the preconceived notions about which types of players that Tortorella would agree to target in the draft.

About a prospect who is very clearly special.

I don't think it's unfair to say that he has a pretty significant say in who plays for his team or that management definitely holds his opinion in high regard.

 

[Redpath]

Well, imo taking MM was a no brainer. Not so sure that is any proof.

Michkov is only a no-brainer if Michkov is the type of player that the Flyers value and want to target.

 

[kudymen]

If this single occurrence with quite specific subject is not a definitive proof of process and philosophy, I don't know what is.

 

[Redpath]

About a prospect who is very clearly special.

I don't think it's unfair to say that he has a pretty significant say in who plays for his team or that management definitely holds his opinion in high regard.

And I'm fine to agree with that too, but then we also have to acknowledge that "who plays for the team" evidently includes high-octane, Michigan scoring, undersized Russians, particularly as the now focal point of the entire organization's future.

I think the "Torts has a major say in the team" talking point is just used as a veil for "But the Flyers are building around grinders and drafting Matteo Mann" without also acknowledging the far most important, franchise-altering selections made too.

Either Tortorella has a say or he doesn't.

 

[Redpath]

If this single occurrence with quite specific subject is not a definitive proof of process and philosophy, I don't know what is.

Yes, the use of the team's first lottery pick under a new GM as the centerpiece of a rebuild and organizational direction is far more indicative of team process and philosophy than bottom 6 signings and 7th round picks.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

And I'm fine to agree with that too, but then we also have to acknowledge that "who plays for the team" evidently includes high-octane, Michigan scoring, undersized Russians, particularly as the now focal point of the entire organization's future.

I think the "Torts has a major say in the team" talking point is just used as a veil for "But the Flyers are building around grinders and drafting Matteo Mann" without also acknowledging the far most important, franchise-altering selections made too.

Either Tortorella has a say or he doesn't.

Torts 100% has a huge say at the NHL level decisions. Not sure how anyone can argue that.