Therrien - New Season Edition

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Cole Caulifield

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Apr 22, 2004
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Well it seems that those who were wrong all along need to salvage some sort of credibility. ;)
Claiming we weren't in a position to make changes 2 yrs ago. :laugh:
The coach was a doofus and his boss probably had to tell him NO MORE enough is enough.

:rolleyes:

What was MT thinking not giving Murray, Bouillon, Tinordi, Gorges, Emelin returning from injury and a green Beaulieu free reins to pinch ? I will never understand that. We had such marvelous 2-way beasts with great skating..

Not to mention our depth with defensively responsible Briere anchoring our 4th line with Parros on his wing and hard workers like Bourque and gritty players in their prime like Moen. Everyone was in their right spot accepting their roles..

And it's obvious that Galchenyuk as a 19 year old sophomore, was 100% ready to jump in and play first line C. The team was clearly as mature and experienced as the one we have right now.
 

Whitesnake

If you rebuild, they will come.
Jan 5, 2003
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Nobody can come in here and say that the MT loves who keeps defending him were right from the get go. That's like people coming in here with the "Where are his haters now" when a guy scores while he was sucking the past 10 games right before.

You are often as succesful as your roster and as your record indicates. It's all great now. We will lose some games soon maybe based on Therrien's decisions and it will be bashed for it. But the point is....today? He cannot be bashed. Team goes exactly in the direction he wants them to go. We find a way to be a pain in the ass for other teams. And we have the record we have. In the long run.....it will have to translate in the playoffs. But so far? Nobody was right all along....but people are right NOW to praise him NOW.
 

ColinO

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Jul 24, 2015
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:rolleyes:

What was MT thinking not giving Murray, Bouillon, Tinordi, Gorges, Emelin returning from injury and a green Beaulieu free reins to pinch ? I will never understand that. We had such marvelous 2-way beasts with great skating..

Not to mention our depth with defensively responsible Briere anchoring our 4th line with Parros on his wing and hard workers like Bourque and gritty players in their prime like Moen. Everyone was in their right spot accepting their roles..

And it's obvious that Galchenyuk as a 19 year old sophomore, was 100% ready to jump in and play first line C. The team was clearly as mature and experienced as the one we have right now.

Not to mention that we should have been playing Semin, Petry, Fleischmann, DSP, Mitchell, and Flynn starting two years ago as well. MT must be a moron.
 

Cole Caulifield

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Apr 22, 2004
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Nobody can come in here and say that the MT loves who keeps defending him were right from the get go. That's like people coming in here with the "Where are his haters now" when a guy scores while he was sucking the past 10 games right before.

You are often as succesful as your roster and as your record indicates. It's all great now. We will lose some games soon maybe based on Therrien's decisions and it will be bashed for it. But the point is....today? He cannot be bashed. Team goes exactly in the direction he wants them to go. We find a way to be a pain in the ass for other teams. And we have the record we have. In the long run.....it will have to translate in the playoffs. But so far? Nobody was right all along....but people are right NOW to praise him NOW.

Exactly. There will be ups and downs, and we're very very far removed from the day where we will be able to really evaluate this edition of the habs and give it a final grade.

In the playoffs, I'm really crossing fingers about staying healthy. No freak injuries please.
 

Rapala

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Mar 29, 2013
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Not to mention that we should have been playing Semin, Petry, Fleischmann, DSP, Mitchell, and Flynn starting two years ago as well. MT must be a moron.

You weren't posting back then but keep skating you'll all tire eventually.
When DD was in his funk we should have moved Pac with Pleck like everyone wanted.
This would have left Egg in tact and allowed AG to ease into a hybrid center role with Eller.
This was strongly recommended and would have changed our dynamic totally.
 

ColinO

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Jul 24, 2015
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You weren't posting back then but keep skating you'll all tire eventually.
When DD was in his funk we should have moved Pac with Pleck like everyone wanted.
This would have left Egg in tact and allowed AG to ease into a hybrid center role with Eller.
This was strongly recommended and would have changed our dynamic totally.

The team has changed rather dramatically over the last couple of years. AG has changed as well. Gally has changed. Eller has changed. The bottom 6 has changed. Making the changes that you suggest should have been made may or may not have improved the outcome over the last two years. It's a little rich to spike the football now by saying "I told you so" in the circumstances.
I think that moving AG to center this year is a game-changer. As is the Petry signing. I'm also glad the Habs let AG develop over the last couple of years on the wing - he may not have developed as well if they threw him right into the center spot to begin with. Good for MT and MB for seeing that and resisting the urge to do that when they didn't think he was ready.
But putting AG at center now, when he is ready, makes everything else fall into place much easier.
 

Kriss E

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May 3, 2007
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If you think we could play this way 2 years ago, you were imagining players whom we hadn't acquired or whom hadn't developed into what they are yet.

The truth is that most of HF habs just wanted Flynn, DSP, DD, Emelin and Gilbert off the team and Therrien fired which would have simply just weakened the team for no reason.

Instead of pathetically and predictably trying to spin the situation into a "see, we were right all long" moment, this would be a good time to show a little humility and admit that MB/MT know better than us 99% of the time. I get that this is a hockey board and wild predictions for fun and outrageous claims are part of the norm, but one shouldn't believe too hard into the BS they're trying to sell.

EDIT : Just this post here... you say DD gets too much ice time. He's 14th out of 18th. Only Weise and the 4th line have played less than him ? He's 10th in PP ice time and #1 in PPP tied with AG and Petry. We have had great success playing that way. In fact, the ice time being spread out is one of the reason why we're playing with this much energy and are this relentless since no one is playing too much. It's hard to believe in your claim that you have been right for 2 years when the first thing you say after that is that DD's line is playing like a 2nd line. The concept of #1-2-3-4 lines is a bit outdated anyway in the way that you meant it.

Of course we could have. It doesn't mean we would be as good and have a 6-0-0 start, but we certainly could play a more aggressive and possessive style, as we did in 12-13.
We were never a grinding team. Plekanec-Patches-Gallagher-Galch-Bourque-Briere-DD-Gionta-Eller backed up by Pk-Markov, I mean, there's only Gallagher that is truly fit for that style. Even Eller who's great at board battles, he still is better carrying the puck and protecting it.
We most definitely could have kept playing an aggressive style.

At the end of the day though, it's all subjective. You can say we didn't have the players for it, that's highly debatable (and I don't think you'd win that debate), maybe maybe not. What is however factual is that people have been saying we should change to a more possessive game since he put in that grinding style. We've been saying Galchenyuk should move to center as he'd naturally be more involved in the plays and get to carry the puck/pick up speed more. We've been saying DD should be out of the top 6. We've been asking for better offensive opportunities for Eller. Some also asked for more offensive involvement from Dmen. I know I have asked for Plek and Patches to be together for years, which started last season but I'm glad he stuck to it this year.
Nobody ever said that those changes would lead to a better record or more points in the standings because so many things can influence that (injuries, opponents injuries, schedule, opposition roster) that it's impossible to know. But structurely, we'd be better.
In the same sense, would we be 6-0-0 if we played like last year?? Maybe..Impossible to know. That's partly why people brought up the ''regular season Champs'', because we kept being fed the ''110pt season!!'' argument, which was quite frankly ridiculous.

You can believe that we didn't have the team to play a more upbeat style, but the facts are we did play such a style in 12-13, and many of the things people wanted have happened, leading to a historical start. Those are the actual facts.
 
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Sorinth

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Jan 18, 2013
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The team has changed rather dramatically over the last couple of years. AG has changed as well. Gally has changed. Eller has changed. The bottom 6 has changed. Making the changes that you suggest should have been made may or may not have improved the outcome over the last two years. It's a little rich to spike the football now by saying "I told you so" in the circumstances.
I think that moving AG to center this year is a game-changer. As is the Petry signing. I'm also glad the Habs let AG develop over the last couple of years on the wing - he may not have developed as well if they threw him right into the center spot to begin with. Good for MT and MB for seeing that and resisting the urge to do that when they didn't think he was ready.
But putting AG at center now, when he is ready, makes everything else fall into place much easier.

And on the flip side he might have developed even better had he been used at center from the start. Perhaps he'd already be a stud #1 center we hope he will become. Galchenyuk showed he was ready to be center by producing whenever he was put at center. In his rookie year he put up 9 points in 13 games at center while being a +8, how exactly was he not ready to be center?

Looking at the results right now and saying it's proof that he was handled correctly is a flawed way of thinking. Lots of people didn't like how everything was handed to Price from such a young age and when Price was struggling with consistency it was "proof" that it was bad for his development, now that he's a Vezina & MVP, does it mean that handing everything to him from the beginning was the best thing for his development? Or how about Pacioretty, was calling him up at such a young age the best thing for his development, after all look at him now, one of the best LW in the game.
 

Lafleurs Guy

Guuuuuuuy!
Jul 20, 2007
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We could start with you :naughty:

But in all seriousness, Therrien's leadership is at it's peak and so is team chemistry.What a nice group of players.This is why I think we are winning the cup this year.
:laugh: Well, I stand by what I said about him over the past two years. Whether I was right or wrong is up to you.

One thing I was wrong on though with this guy was that he'd be willing to change. LShap and I have had a few debates on this. He's said that mgmt would change the style of play, that Galchenyuk would go to center and they'd reduce DD's role... I think my reply to him was something along the lines of "I'll believe it when I see it." Really though, I never thought we'd see it.

Well, now we have seen it. LShap was right on this and I was wrong. I didn't think MT would change but I'm glad he did. How can I fault him for the changes he's made? He's done everything I hoped he would. So props to Therrien. Why he made the changes? Everyone will have different opinions/beliefs on this but I really don't care why. I'm just happy with the style of play.
 

Captain Mountain

Formerly Captain Wolverine
Jun 6, 2010
21,135
15,274
Well it seems that those who were wrong all along need to salvage some sort of credibility. ;)
Claiming we weren't in a position to make changes 2 yrs ago. :laugh:
The coach was a doofus and his boss probably had to tell him NO MORE enough is enough.

We have no idea what the truth of it was. The Habs brought in Ramsay as a coaching consultant and hired and an apparently very bright analytics guy. I suspect those two were able to demonstrate to Therrien why the passive style and dump and chase where ineffective.

Furthermore, we don't know that Chucky was ready for center. We suspect he was and there were signs that he was, but we can't know for sure.

Therrien was (maybe still is?) detrimentally old fashioned. He is not a total moron. You can't convince 23 men, especially elite guys like Patches, Subban, Price and Markov to compete the way this team has the past few years without being a convincing and both a strong communicator and manager. His systems were awful because he hadn't adapted them effectively from the dead puck era. His line configuration were bad based on observation, but find me a single coach in the NHL that doesn't make weird lineup decisions.

Firing Therrien was always a last option, because of the impossible standard a new guy would have to meet immediately and its always preferable, in any organization, to work on improving the performance of existing personnel than replacing them. Therrien has done an amazing job with the team and deserves the praise he is due, just as he deserved the criticism he got the last couple of seasons.

I was in favour of replacing him since historic evidence and two straight years of dump and chase crushed any hope I had that he could change. But the current product is very good and I happily reverse that position so long as he keeps it up.
 

ColinO

Registered User
Jul 24, 2015
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And on the flip side he might have developed even better had he been used at center from the start. Perhaps he'd already be a stud #1 center we hope he will become. Galchenyuk showed he was ready to be center by producing whenever he was put at center. In his rookie year he put up 9 points in 13 games at center while being a +8, how exactly was he not ready to be center?

Looking at the results right now and saying it's proof that he was handled correctly is a flawed way of thinking. Lots of people didn't like how everything was handed to Price from such a young age and when Price was struggling with consistency it was "proof" that it was bad for his development, now that he's a Vezina & MVP, does it mean that handing everything to him from the beginning was the best thing for his development? Or how about Pacioretty, was calling him up at such a young age the best thing for his development, after all look at him now, one of the best LW in the game.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. I said in my post that making the changes earlier may or may not have improved things. So I guess you are agreeing with me. I'm also suggesting that "I told you so's" are also pure speculation at this point given that so much has changed over time. One of the things we do know is that it appears that the team is better this year than it has been in a while and isn't that what we want the coaches to do - improve the team? Same goes with the players like AG.
 

Sorinth

Registered User
Jan 18, 2013
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If you think we could play this way 2 years ago, you were imagining players whom we hadn't acquired or whom hadn't developed into what they are yet.

Yet 3 years ago we did play this way. Was the 2012-2013 team as talented as this one? Was it even as talented as the 2013 or 2014 teams? What player(s) did we lose from that 2012-2013 team that prevented us from playing that style for the last 2 years?
 

Rapala

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Mar 29, 2013
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We have no idea what the truth of it was. The Habs brought in Ramsay as a coaching consultant and hired and an apparently very bright analytics guy. I suspect those two were able to demonstrate to Therrien why the passive style and dump and chase where ineffective.

Furthermore, we don't know that Chucky was ready for center. We suspect he was and there were signs that he was, but we can't know for sure.

Therrien was (maybe still is?) detrimentally old fashioned. He is not a total moron. You can't convince 23 men, especially elite guys like Patches, Subban, Price and Markov to compete the way this team has the past few years without being a convincing and both a strong communicator and manager. His systems were awful because he hadn't adapted them effectively from the dead puck era. His line configuration were bad based on observation, but find me a single coach in the NHL that doesn't make weird lineup decisions.

Firing Therrien was always a last option, because of the impossible standard a new guy would have to meet immediately and its always preferable, in any organization, to work on improving the performance of existing personnel than replacing them. Therrien has done an amazing job with the team and deserves the praise he is due, just as he deserved the criticism he got the last couple of seasons.

I was in favour of replacing him since historic evidence and two straight years of dump and chase crushed any hope I had that he could change. But the current product is very good and I happily reverse that position so long as he keeps it up.

The changes were decided upon well before these hirings.
You do realize the braintrust debriefs at the end of the season/post-season.
MT was involved in a lot of player meetings over the summer well before analytics guy and Ramsay came on board. We had Grant reporting DD's days at C were done and If you recall the initial media reports had Davey as a third line winger. I'm gonna say I find it highly unlikely that MT was the catalyst for all these changes. If anything he has proven to be stubborn to a fault. I will give him credit for keeping DD at center because he would make a terrible winger IMO. I will also give him huge marks for understanding the need to use the 4th line as a shutdown line even if it cuts into the third lines TOI.
 

Cole Caulifield

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Apr 22, 2004
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Yet 3 years ago we did play this way. Was the 2012-2013 team as talented as this one? Was it even as talented as the 2013 or 2014 teams? What player(s) did we lose from that 2012-2013 team that prevented us from playing that style for the last 2 years?

There are differences with the 2012-13 system and what we're using right now.

In 2012-13, our forwards were using an aggressive 2 man forecheck when defending. We're not as aggressive this year on puck recovery. This year, our dmen join the rush and pinch more often than in 2012-13. I wouldn't be able to list all the differences but it's not the same.

But if you ask why we didn't keep playing like 2012-13 in 2013-14... I don't have the answer. But our group did change. Gionta got older, we lost Ryder/Cole and replaced them with Briere, Prust was banged up, Galchenyuk missed some time and we simply didn't have the depth on the wing to make 3 solid lines like we had in 2012-13. Emelin wasn't there to start the season and wasn't exactly the same after he came back. Murray, Parros, Briere dragged us down.
 

Rapala

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Mar 29, 2013
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There are differences with the 2012-13 system and what we're using right now.

In 2012-13, our forwards were using an aggressive 2 man forecheck when defending. We're not as aggressive this year on puck recovery. This year, our dmen join the rush and pinch more often than in 2012-13. I wouldn't be able to list all the differences but it's not the same.

But if you ask why we didn't keep playing like 2012-13 in 2013-14... I don't have the answer. But our group did change. Gionta got older, we lost Ryder/Cole and replaced them with Briere, Prust was banged up, Galchenyuk missed some time and we simply didn't have the depth on the wing to make 3 solid lines like we had in 2012-13. Emelin wasn't there to start the season and wasn't exactly the same after he came back. Murray, Parros, Briere dragged us down.

I think MT getting schooled by a Walrus in the post season had everything to do with his reticence the following year.
 

ECWHSWI

TOUGHEN UP.
Oct 27, 2006
28,604
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Reality : this is in no way the same hockey as the shortened season. It's just not the same. The forechecking is obviously different. In the shortened season we employed a very aggressive 2 man forecheck. This is not the case here.

as for the rest of the post, aside from the stuff that you have speculated on and passed it off as truth, no one was saying that "MT is so awesome". I am going to assume that you are referring to me saying MT/MB know better than us 99% of the time when you wrote that, but for me, this doesn't mean they're awesome. It goes without saying that every coach and GM should know better than fans on message boards. They have more experience, they spend more time on it, they have access to info we don't have... they should 99% of the time take better decisions than we can from the comfort of our homes. Doesn't mean I think they're awesome. I didn't say that. But I'm starting to think they are indeed awesome.

As for your character assassination of MT, I would say that it's truly a miracle that the entire org stands so united despite the coach being completely moronic and stupid, a liar, a coward, a guy who isn't humble. It's truly amazing that the team stays grounded and can break habs records despite such a boat anchor behind the bench. It's quite something..

are you saying Therrien did NOT lie about Galchenyuk asking to go back at C...

is that what you are saying ? ? ?
 

Cole Caulifield

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Apr 22, 2004
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I think MT getting schooled by a Walrus in the post season had everything to do with his reticence the following year.

I think that the way we played in 12-13 required a lot more energy and effort from the forwards than in 13-14 and 14-15. At the end of the 12-13 season, despite it being only 48 games, we looked out of gas and a lot of our guys got injured (Prust, Eller, Pacioretty). Injuries are often a result of mistakes, fatigue.

I think the coaching staff might have made the calculation that we needed to play a more economical style during the season. We saw in the playoffs that we played more aggressively again in both years after 12-13.

That's just my guess though...
 

VirginiaMtlExpat

Second most interesting man in the world.
Aug 20, 2003
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We have no idea what the truth of it was. The Habs brought in Ramsay as a coaching consultant and hired and an apparently very bright analytics guy. I suspect those two were able to demonstrate to Therrien why the passive style and dump and chase where ineffective.

Furthermore, we don't know that Chucky was ready for center. We suspect he was and there were signs that he was, but we can't know for sure.

Therrien was (maybe still is?) detrimentally old fashioned. He is not a total moron. You can't convince 23 men, especially elite guys like Patches, Subban, Price and Markov to compete the way this team has the past few years without being a convincing and both a strong communicator and manager. His systems were awful because he hadn't adapted them effectively from the dead puck era. His line configuration were bad based on observation, but find me a single coach in the NHL that doesn't make weird lineup decisions.

Firing Therrien was always a last option, because of the impossible standard a new guy would have to meet immediately and its always preferable, in any organization, to work on improving the performance of existing personnel than replacing them. Therrien has done an amazing job with the team and deserves the praise he is due, just as he deserved the criticism he got the last couple of seasons.

I was in favour of replacing him since historic evidence and two straight years of dump and chase crushed any hope I had that he could change. But the current product is very good and I happily reverse that position so long as he keeps it up.

Good post. This is the way that I see it as well. Props to MB for sticking with his coach, who has undeniable strengths as a motivator, and getting him to address his weaknesses in relation to strategy and team composition, which a few of us had found to be glaring. Btw, this resonates with what I had been saying this summer, although I had envisioned a strategically inclined assistant coach doing it. It certainly does look like one or two influencers had an impact on the game plan.
 

Cole Caulifield

Registered User
Apr 22, 2004
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are you saying Therrien did NOT lie about Galchenyuk asking to go back at C...

is that what you are saying ? ? ?

No. I don't know what exactly happened between Galchenyuk and Therrien, and neither do you. What you claim to be a lie could simply be miscommunication, or a misunderstanding by either/both parties. You automatically assume MT lied which says a lot about your objectivity. Not that I'm particularly interested in going in depth into this non-event of a few months ago... you really seem hell bent to talk about this though.
 

BenchBrawl

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Jul 26, 2010
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:laugh: Well, I stand by what I said about him over the past two years. Whether I was right or wrong is up to you.

One thing I was wrong on though with this guy was that he'd be willing to change. LShap and I have had a few debates on this. He's said that mgmt would change the style of play, that Galchenyuk would go to center and they'd reduce DD's role... I think my reply to him was something along the lines of "I'll believe it when I see it." Really though, I never thought we'd see it.

Well, now we have seen it. LShap was right on this and I was wrong. I didn't think MT would change but I'm glad he did. How can I fault him for the changes he's made? He's done everything I hoped he would. So props to Therrien. Why he made the changes? Everyone will have different opinions/beliefs on this but I really don't care why. I'm just happy with the style of play.

Maybe he made the changes because he thought his team was ready to respond to those changes.Maybe if he had made those changes before the team wouldn't have been as successful in previous years.
 

ECWHSWI

TOUGHEN UP.
Oct 27, 2006
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No. I don't know what exactly happened between Galchenyuk and Therrien, and neither do you. What you claim to be a lie could simply be miscommunication, or a misunderstanding by either/both parties. You automatically assume MT lied which says a lot about your objectivity. Not that I'm particularly interested in going in depth into this non-event of a few months ago... you really seem hell bent to talk about this though.

and why in hell would I assume otherwise ? what are the indications that it was simply miscommunication ?

objectivity... :laugh:

I actually dont, it's just obvious we have to go step by step though, one thing at a time.

Yup, Therrien DID lie in front of the cameras, you can decide to find excuses to justify it or simply accept the fact it was obviously a LIE.
 

Rapala

Registered User
Mar 29, 2013
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I think that the way we played in 12-13 required a lot more energy and effort from the forwards than in 13-14 and 14-15. At the end of the 12-13 season, despite it being only 48 games, we looked out of gas and a lot of our guys got injured (Prust, Eller, Pacioretty). Injuries are often a result of mistakes, fatigue.

I think the coaching staff might have made the calculation that we needed to play a more economical style during the season. We saw in the playoffs that we played more aggressively again in both years after 12-13.

That's just my guess though...

Hmmm
Once again I think the opposite is true. (go figure)
The style of play we have practised over these past two seasons would be far more taxing/fatiguing.
It is so much easier to skate and play up ice with the puck than to defend.
We spent far too much time in our own end with our faces planted to the boards.
I shudder to think of how many times we were barely able to scratch the puck out of the zone.
Needless to say there wasn't much left in the tank for offense after that.
 

Nynja*

Guest
I honestly wouldnt bother, everything you need to know is found in this exchange:
MT was characterized as a liar, a coward who throws his players under the bus, an idiot, a dinosaur, a guy who plays favourites, a guy who would ruin star players....

1-Yes, he said Chucky went to him to be taken off C, Chuck said that he never said that, he said he would do "whats best for the team"
2-see Lars Eller, Jiri Sekac
3-Moreso stubborn, but if you consider that people who are stubborn are also idiots, then yes, he always sticks to "da gameplan" no matter what
4-He uses archaic strategies, that makes him a dinosaur
5-see: Cube, Crankshaft, Davey, Ouelette
6-"Make PK da better player"...PK rushes much less with the puck since 2013


However, this season he'd done a better job through 5 games.

Thank you for proving my point.


MT has never done any wrong apparently, that 6 item list was all fabricated lies by me.
 

ECWHSWI

TOUGHEN UP.
Oct 27, 2006
28,604
5,423
I honestly wouldnt bother, everything you need to know is found in this exchange:







MT has never done any wrong apparently, that 6 item list was all fabricated lies by me.

they arent lies, it just happen there's a valid reason for every single thing listed, MT does not make mistakes, ever.
 
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