Therrien - New Season Edition

[jaffy27]

I honestly wouldnt bother, everything you need to know is found in this exchange:







MT has never done any wrong apparently, that 6 item list was all fabricated lies by me.

The flip side to the coin is some people here thinks everything he does is wrong......truth lies somewhere in the middle...but now that the habs are outplaying, outshooting, outchancing and most importantly outscoring the opposition, Therrien, the system and the players should be hailed in admiration.

Habs have the most goals for, the least goals against, a goal diff. of +13, best in the league, and the most points (12). Therrien for Jack Adams???? Still a tad early I think

 

[Nynja*]

The flip side to the coin is some people here thinks everything he does is wrong......truth lies somewhere in the middle...but now that the habs are outplaying, outshooting, outchancing and most importantly outscoring the opposition, Therrien, the system and the players should be hailed in admiration.

No one has criticized anything about MT this season ever since the first game against Toronto. Price hasnt "stolen" any of those other 5 wins (NYR could be argued, but Henrik also kept his team in it with a lot of nice saves), we won those games because we dictated the pace, we controlled the game. Sure, Price will make some nice, highlight reel saves, but right now, were not playing for 2 goals and sitting on it.

The real test will come if we lose 3 games in a row. Will MT panic and revert to his old ways? We have three lines clicking and scoring goals though, and a fourth line that has the swagger and belief that they can go on the ice against any opposition and do their job defensively.

 

[Sorinth]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. I said in my post that making the changes earlier may or may not have improved things. So I guess you are agreeing with me. I'm also suggesting that "I told you so's" are also pure speculation at this point given that so much has changed over time. One of the things we do know is that it appears that the team is better this year than it has been in a while and isn't that what we want the coaches to do - improve the team? Same goes with the players like AG.

People said we would be better with certain changes, they were eventually made and the early returns are showing them to be right. The I told you so's are entirely justified. Saying we don't know what would have happened if implemented earlier is cop out.

There are differences with the 2012-13 system and what we're using right now.

In 2012-13, our forwards were using an aggressive 2 man forecheck when defending. We're not as aggressive this year on puck recovery. This year, our dmen join the rush and pinch more often than in 2012-13. I wouldn't be able to list all the differences but it's not the same.

But if you ask why we didn't keep playing like 2012-13 in 2013-14... I don't have the answer. But our group did change. Gionta got older, we lost Ryder/Cole and replaced them with Briere, Prust was banged up, Galchenyuk missed some time and we simply didn't have the depth on the wing to make 3 solid lines like we had in 2012-13. Emelin wasn't there to start the season and wasn't exactly the same after he came back. Murray, Parros, Briere dragged us down.

It's not identical, but it's much closer to the current system then the two previous years were. So it's hard to argue that we lacked the talent when 3 years ago we had a system that required just as much talent as the current one does.

Ryder/Cole -> Briere/Parenteau is a bit of a step back but let's not forget when we got Vanek which was a big upgrade we still played the same crappy system. Gionta was the same, there was no decline in his skills. Therrien didn't have to play Murray/Bouillon over Beaulieu, he didn't have to play Parros at all. This supposed lack of talent is because Therrien chose to play worse players. And there's reason to think he pushed for guys like Murray/Parros to begin with.

 

[Milhouse40]

Galchenyuk is playing center for his third stretch since he's on the team.
The Habs are 24 - 6 - 1 with Chucky at center.
This was the biggest reason Therrien got some heat.....and for good reason.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Yet 3 years ago we did play this way. Was the 2012-2013 team as talented as this one? Was it even as talented as the 2013 or 2014 teams? What player(s) did we lose from that 2012-2013 team that prevented us from playing that style for the last 2 years?

And the Pens used chip and chase and were going to miss the playoffs before they turfed Therrien... It's a bad system no matter what. Good riddance to it.

 

[Kraniumm]

The Habs brought in Ramsay as a coaching consultant and hired and an apparently very bright analytics guy. I suspect those two were able to demonstrate to Therrien why the passive style and dump and chase where ineffective.

Furthermore, we don't know that Chucky was ready for center. We suspect he was and there were signs that he was, but we can't know for sure.

Therrien was (maybe still is?) detrimentally old fashioned. He is not a total moron. You can't convince 23 men, especially elite guys like Patches, Subban, Price and Markov to compete the way this team has the past few years without being a convincing and both a strong communicator and manager. His systems were awful because he hadn't adapted them effectively from the dead puck era. His line configuration were bad based on observation, but find me a single coach in the NHL that doesn't make weird lineup decisions.

Firing Therrien was always a last option, because of the impossible standard a new guy would have to meet immediately and its always preferable, in any organization, to work on improving the performance of existing personnel than replacing them. Therrien has done an amazing job with the team and deserves the praise he is due, just as he deserved the criticism he got the last couple of seasons.

I was in favour of replacing him since historic evidence and two straight years of dump and chase crushed any hope I had that he could change. But the current product is very good and I happily reverse that position so long as he keeps it up.

This. (especially my bold) He has finally come around.

 

[DAChampion]

Several years of injuries, failures on the free agent market, failures in the draft, failures in development, and failures in trades leaves the Penguins a mediocre team with or without Therrien.

 

[jaffy27]

The real test will come if we lose 3 games in a row. Will MT panic and revert to his old ways? We have three lines clicking and scoring goals though, and a fourth line that has the swagger and belief that they can go on the ice against any opposition and do their job defensively.

I don't think he will because his old ways involve a less talented team....baring 2-3 key injuries, expect the habs to keep playing this way.

 

[Nynja*]

Adding flash and semin didnt turn us into "a possession worthy team". Sorry, i dont buy that for one moment.

 

[Rapala]

This. (especially my bold) He has finally come around.

The hirings are the result of decisions made after the post season to change our approach.
The idea being to help the staff avoid the pitfalls of (reverting to old ways)Something MT does well!

 

[Born in 1909]

Galchenyuk is playing center for his third stretch since he's on the team.
The Habs are 24 - 6 - 1 with Chucky at center.
This was the biggest reason Therrien got some heat.....and for good reason.

That is an astounding stat.

 

[Monctonscout]

20. It always helps when you have an impenetrable force in net, but Ottawa, the Rangers and Pittsburgh all praised Montreal’s structure in front of Carey Price.

“They do a great job of angling you to where you don’t want to go,” one opponent said. “Much improved. Very disciplined.” Another added that, in a league where “bang it off the boards” gets your mouth washed out with soap, the Canadiens aren’t afraid to do it. “Their philosophy is, ‘Spend as little time as possible in your own zone.’” One of their advantages is their speed, so they’ll take a chance with the footrace if the pass isn’t there.”


From Friedman's 30 in 30

 

[Andy]

“Much improved. .”
From Friedman's 30 in 30

That's the key right there.

Habs definitely change their style of game from last year. They were one of those "bang it off the boards" teams...PK even admitted last year and tried to justify it as puck placement.

I'm happy with the change in style, it's been a long time coming.

As per Subban

There is a growing belief, with studies to support it, that chipping pucks out of your end or into the offensive end is not efficient, that it results in a turnover more often than not. Subban said he believes the Canadiens do it well enough to make it more efficient than it would be for other teams.

"It's called puck placement," Subban said. "I think if you're just giving it back to the other team that's not what you want to do. You want to chip to support, chip to a guy skating or put it in a spot where, we have a fast team, it's a foot race. I like our chances in those battles."

Eller in the same article:

"If we could carry it in [the offensive zone], we would carry it in," Eller said. "We are a fast team, we're fast skaters. But it starts way before that. Before we can do those other things it starts with the plays without the puck before we get it back. We have to do those things right to create space to skate it in. If we're dead tired chasing the puck for 45 seconds we won't have gas to skate it out and skate it in.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=757944

 

[jaffy27]

Adding flash and semin didnt turn us into "a possession worthy team". Sorry, i dont buy that for one moment.

Maybe not, but add Petry and Bealieu to start the season, add Mitchell, Flynn and a much leaner and faster DSP, put a bigger stronger Galchenyuk at center which pushes DD back into reduced minutes and the bonus number is a leaner Emelin that's playing like I'm playing Boston Emelin and you got yourself a puck possession team that can play puck possession...if you need any extra explanations I'll be right here...

 

[Sorinth]

Maybe not, but add Petry and Bealieu to start the season, add Mitchell, Flynn and a much leaner and faster DSP, put a bigger stronger Galchenyuk at center which pushes DD back into reduced minutes and the bonus number is a leaner Emelin that's playing like I'm playing Boston Emelin and you got yourself a puck possession team that can play puck possession...if you need any extra explanations I'll be right here...

Galchenyuk at center and Beaulieu playing regularly are things we could have been doing for the past 2 years but chose not to.

But the biggest lineup change that has helped possession is Pacioretty playing with Plekanec. Pacioretty is being fully utilized in a 2-way role which makes it easier for the other lines, when he was used in an exploitation role it made things harder for the other lines.

 

[Bryson]

Galchenyuk at center and Beaulieu playing regularly are things we could have been doing for the past 2 years but chose not to.

But the biggest lineup change that has helped possession is Pacioretty playing with Plekanec. Pacioretty is being fully utilized in a 2-way role which makes it easier for the other lines, when he was used in an exploitation role it made things harder for the other lines.

Just want to say I love you Sorinth. Your posts are always informative and on point. You should be a columnist or something. Cheers!

 

[Hoople]

Galchenyuk at center and Beaulieu playing regularly are things we could have been doing for the past 2 years but chose not to.

But the biggest lineup change that has helped possession is Pacioretty playing with Plekanec. Pacioretty is being fully utilized in a 2-way role which makes it easier for the other lines, when he was used in an exploitation role it made things harder for the other lines.

The Habs were very weak at wing last season. Chucky had to fill that role.

The talent level on this team has gone up and it's obvious to anyone who has watched this team play.

Therrien did and is doing what most good coaches do. Base the system and lineups upon who is on the roster. And the Habs did well last season with less talent than this season.

 

[Mario le Magnifique]

And the Pens used chip and chase and were going to miss the playoffs before they turfed Therrien... It's a bad system no matter what. Good riddance to it.

Pens were a grinding team

 

[Mario le Magnifique]

Bob Hartley on 91.9 was talking about systems and one thing he said was really really interesting...

Habs defense have never been as good as it is in almost two decades and it's what really drives the offense. Bob compared the Habs defense to the Flames defense as both are really good at moving pucks and are really fast skaters.

If the forwards are hemmed in their zone and have to work hard to retrive pucks, they have no juice left for attacking, hence the dump and change. Then this year, since Petry is here in fact, Habs can take the puck out of their zone faster and have more juice to enter the offensive zone with it with a good breakout and therefore, keep possession and take the juice out of their oponents, and that cycle continues as the oponents dumps to change and Habs can breakout easily, etc. Last year we had trouble breaking out of our zone when we had a bunch of bandaids playing defense and plugs on our top 6.

In the end, Therrien still defends his system and puts the change on the personnel he can deal with now, he said so in an interview (can't quote). He said they use the same freaking system, that he never told his players to dump as much as they did, they did because they had no options / bad breakouts / out of gas needed to change, which was the right thing to do in those circumstances (safer play). Everything starts from the defense in Therrien's system. Therrien believes the big change comes with how good the defense is playing right now. Even his third pairing can transition quickly.

 

[Kriss E]

The Habs were very weak at wing last season. Chucky had to fill that role.

The talent level on this team has gone up and it's obvious to anyone who has watched this team play.

Therrien did and is doing what most good coaches do. Base the system and lineups upon who is on the roster. And the Habs did well last season with less talent than this season.

We moved Eller to the wing on the top 6 in stead of Galchenyuk, otherwise we still have a hole. Semin replaced PAP and neither players are grinders. So no, nothing has really changed there.
Floosh is a good 3rd line addition, but Sekac was also a good puck possession player. The difference is he was used on a line that was used as checking line, he even mentioned it himself. DD's line isn't used that way at all.

We didn't bring in superstars. If Semin doesn't increase his production, he won't even produce as a top 6 player. The biggest addition was Petry, but he's not the difference between playing a grinding style vs puck possession.
Beaulieu and Galchenyuk are improved, but again, that's irrelevant seeing how they never were the type of players to play a grinding style.

You should be arguing that the 4th line is the reason why we were able to change roles, not that we were weak on the wing.

 

[Kriss E]

Bob Hartley on 91.9 was talking about systems and one thing he said was really really interesting...

Habs defense have never been as good as it is in almost two decades and it's what really drives the offense. Bob compared the Habs defense to the Flames defense as both are really good at moving pucks and are really fast skaters.

If the forwards are hemmed in their zone and have to work hard to retrive pucks, they have no juice left for attacking, hence the dump and change. Then this year, since Petry is here in fact, Habs can take the puck out of their zone faster and have more juice to enter the offensive zone with it with a good breakout and therefore, keep possession and take the juice out of their oponents, and that cycle continues as the oponents dumps to change and Habs can breakout easily, etc. Last year we had trouble breaking out of our zone when we had a bunch of bandaids playing defense and plugs on our top 6.

In the end, Therrien still defends his system and puts the change on the personnel he can deal with now, he said so in an interview (can't quote). He said they use the same freaking system, that he never told his players to dump as much as they did, they did because they had no options / bad breakouts / out of gas needed to change, which was the right thing to do in those circumstances (safer play). Everything starts from the defense in Therrien's system. Therrien believes the big change comes with how good the defense is playing right now. Even his third pairing can transition quickly.

You don't need to have one of the best group of Dmen in the NHL to play a more possessive game. That's pure BS. The better your Ds, the better it will be, no doubt about it. But to argue you some somehow need to have an allstar clique is ridiculous and such a cop out.

I also laugh at the idea we're playing the same system and Therrien never told them to dump as much. We have him on camera on 24CH flat out telling the players that we're a grinding team. He's also repeatedly talked about making the less risky plays. If he didn't tell them to dump it as much, you're pretty much telling me this team hasn't played how Therrien wants them to play for 2 years?..
That's odd because when he said he was going to change things and adapt to TB in post season, they changed their style and the team dumped it less...Hmmm Something does't add up.
Therrien also said they want to be more aggressive and focus more on possession. So which is it?? Is he playing the same system, or did he change?..

 

[Mario le Magnifique]

You don't need to have one of the best group of Dmen in the NHL to play a more possessive game. That's pure BS. The better your Ds, the better it will be, no doubt about it. But to argue you some somehow need to have an allstar clique is ridiculous and such a cop out.

I also laugh at the idea we're playing the same system and Therrien never told them to dump as much. We have him on camera on 24CH flat out telling the players that we're a grinding team. He's also repeatedly talked about making the less risky plays. If he didn't tell them to dump it as much, you're pretty much telling me this team hasn't played how Therrien wants them to play for 2 years?..
That's odd because when he said he was going to change things and adapt to TB in post season, they changed their style and the team dumped it less...Hmmm Something does't add up.
Therrien also said they want to be more aggressive and focus more on possession. So which is it?? Is he playing the same system, or did he change?..

Perhaps he just 'tweaked' the system, he uses the same baselines... Don't know, I was talking about what he and Bob Hartley said.

A less risky approach works great as the team gives up less odd man rushes, at same time it dosen't mean to NOT be a possession team...

I think a lot of the changes are the 2nd and 3rd pairings this year compared to last year's Weaver, Gonchar, Allen, Gilbert on 2nd pairing, less experienced Beaulieu... All of these players played a good bunch of games before Petry arrived...

Something tells me though that tonight we're going to see a lot of chip n chase since the Blues are a bigger team and that big teams might give trouble to the smallish Habs breaking out of their zone.

 

[Kriss E]

Perhaps he just 'tweaked' the system, he uses the same baselines... Don't know, I was talking about what he and Bob Hartley said.

A less risky approach works great as the team gives up less odd man rushes, at same time it dosen't mean to NOT be a possession team...

I think a lot of the changes are the 2nd and 3rd pairings this year compared to last year's Weaver, Gonchar, Allen, Gilbert on 2nd pairing, less experienced Beaulieu...

Something tells me though that tonight we're going to see a lot of chip n chase since the Blues are a bigger team and that big teams might give trouble to the smallish Habs.

Beaulieu and Gonchar were a great pair last year. Certainly not perfect but they were good.
Allen played 5 games man...

Let's stop downplaying our team just to excuse the use of that system. We also played that way the year prior and we pretty much had the same team from the previous year where we played a more aggressive style. So enough of this nonsense.

 

[Mario le Magnifique]

Beaulieu and Gonchar were a great pair last year. Certainly not perfect but they were good.
Allen played 5 games man...

Let's stop downplaying our team just to excuse the use of that system. We also played that way the year prior and we pretty much had the same team from the previous year where we played a more aggressive style. So enough of this nonsense.

So dismissing Hartley and Therrien's explanations / opinions with 'that's straight up nonsense' is a good way to argue ? Gonchar has no NHL contract this year (can't find one at least), and was benched when we got Petry, Weaver retired, Allen well you're right, but my point was, they all filled someone's shoes on the team this year. If Gonchar was so good he'd have an NHL contract this year. Last year he had trouble in the D zone, and was weak physically. In reality, Carey effin Price made that D look good, that's what everyone says here anyways, Gonchar included.

Okay, I'll take what real professionnals have to say over some folk on an interweb forums, thanks. Sure they still use a 'langue de bois' and there's always underlying things to what they say, but IMO, MT didn't change the baselines otherwise you'd see a lot of mess out there, y'know, guys learning a new system and all that. If MT and Hartley are saying that the system didn't really 'change' I kind of believe them. There have been tweaks for sure though. Every coaches evolves, so is every team. Habs are deeper than last year, coach has more tools to deal with.

 

[ECWHSWI]

So dismissing Hartley and Therrien's explanations / opinions with 'that's straight up nonsense' is a good way to argue ? Gonchar has no NHL contract this year (can't find one at least), and was benched when we got Petry, Weaver retired, Allen well you're right, but my point was, they all filled someone's shoes on the team this year. If Gonchar was so good he'd have an NHL contract this year. Last year he had trouble in the D zone, and was weak physically. In reality, Carey effin Price made that D look good, that's what everyone says here anyways, Gonchar included.

Okay, I'll take what real professionnals have to say over some folk on an interweb forums, thanks. Sure they still use a 'langue de bois' and there's always underlying things to what they say, but IMO, MT didn't change the baselines otherwise you'd see a lot of mess out there, y'know, guys learning a new system and all that. If MT and Hartley are saying that the system didn't really 'change' I kind of believe them. There have been tweaks for sure though. Every coaches evolves, so is every team. Habs are deeper than last year, coach has more tools to deal with.

added to the top 9 : project Semin and PTO Fleishmann.