The Tank Megathread | 8 | The Tank Awakens

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JuniorNelson

Registered User
Jan 21, 2010
8,631
320
E.Vancouver
Canucks have given ample indication they are out of the playoffs. Let's just accept that. So, moving forward, what is the best option set?

Sell vets, play kids, right? Not according to the geniuses that post here. They'd prefer to keep the slowest forward tandem in the league and build around them. This is just ridiculous in this league. Speed is needed for success in this modern era. Slowness cannot be disguised. We have seen this every game this season. All the other slowpokes are gone from the team. Except the top line. They remain.

Where is the outcry? Where is the sound hockey sense that once infused this board? Idiots shouting down sensible posters has become the norm. Adolescent analysis doesn't sound better larded with teen-age rhetoric. Except here.

This board and this team deserve each other. They are co-dependent and crazy.
 

BuzzBuzz

Registered User
Apr 7, 2011
609
25
Canucks have given ample indication they are out of the playoffs. Let's just accept that. So, moving forward, what is the best option set?

Sell vets, play kids, right? Not according to the geniuses that post here. They'd prefer to keep the slowest forward tandem in the league and build around them. This is just ridiculous in this league. Speed is needed for success in this modern era. Slowness cannot be disguised. We have seen this every game this season. All the other slowpokes are gone from the team. Except the top line. They remain.

Where is the outcry? Where is the sound hockey sense that once infused this board? Idiots shouting down sensible posters has become the norm. Adolescent analysis doesn't sound better larded with teen-age rhetoric. Except here.

This board and this team deserve each other. They are co-dependent and crazy.

Fast != Effectiveness
 

Seattle Totems

Registered User
Apr 14, 2010
3,932
1,209
You mention the Canucks time period between 1997-2000. Who did we draft during those years? Brad Ference, Bryan Allen, the twins (we traded McCabe and a 1st btw), and Nathan Smith. In 1996, we drafted Josh Holden. In 2001, we drafted R.J. Umberger. Now granted - the Canucks drafting record has been historically dreadful, but most teams do not consistently hit home-runs with high end first round picks.

And that's the biggest point I want to make. If the Canucks are going to deliberately 'tank' via selling off all/most vets at this year's deadline (as many posters on here would like to see), it's not like the Canucks will automatically start landing franchise players that can lead the next core.

Those were all mediocre drafts so your point is irrelevant. This years draft is one of the deepest in recent memory. If they draft in the top 7 they will acquire the best prospect since the Sedins. If they are lucky enough to win one of the top 3 draft picks they are probably looking at a franchise player.

The Canucks are going to miss the playoffs this year anyway. They may as well accept it and make the most out of the draft. Load up on draft picks and put themselves in the best position to win the lottery.
 

Captain Bowie

Registered User
Jan 18, 2012
27,139
4,414
Canucks have given ample indication they are out of the playoffs. Let's just accept that. So, moving forward, what is the best option set?

Sell vets, play kids, right? Not according to the geniuses that post here. They'd prefer to keep the slowest forward tandem in the league and build around them. This is just ridiculous in this league. Speed is needed for success in this modern era. Slowness cannot be disguised. We have seen this every game this season. All the other slowpokes are gone from the team. Except the top line. They remain.

Where is the outcry? Where is the sound hockey sense that once infused this board? Idiots shouting down sensible posters has become the norm. Adolescent analysis doesn't sound better larded with teen-age rhetoric. Except here.

This board and this team deserve each other. They are co-dependent and crazy.

Can we get Brandon Reid back? He was fast.
 

fancouver

Registered User
Jan 15, 2009
5,964
0
Vancouver
The last few weeks should confirm to Benning we are sellers at the deadline. Seeing how draft day is his 'favourite day', I hope he stocks up on draft picks at the deadline.
 

Desai87

Registered User
Mar 27, 2008
1,442
0
Next 3 games which are against Colorado(6 points ahead of Canucks with more games played), Coyotes(2 points ahead of the Canucks) and the Leafs(5 points behind Canucks) will not only decide if this team will sell at the Deadline but where they might be drafting as well.

Big games for Team Tank.
 

LeftCoast

Registered User
Aug 1, 2006
9,052
304
Vancouver
Actually, my sample size was "10-15 years." Therefore, 1997-2000 is irrelevant to the conversation.


----- 8< snip (too long to quote) ----

I think you both make good points.

How you approach a rebuild / retool really depends on what condition the team is in (there are also market considerations, but maybe that's a different post).

There is the Toronto / Buffalo situation - both teams are hopelessly non-competitive. Chicago circa 2002 is probably another example. When they began their respective rebuilds, both teams had a couple of quality prospects, but not enough quantity, quality or depth to really build around. In this situation, a full on rebuild where you sell off your veterans, accumulate picks and prospects and play a very young and inexperienced team is sensible.

At the other end of the spectrum are teams like Detroit and New Jersey (from late 80's until 2012 or so). These teams were always contenders and were almost always drafting late in the 1st round. It should be noted that New Jersey started their long run of success with some high picks that landed them Kirk Muller, Bill Guerin, Scott Niedermayer and Brendan Shanahan then picked Martin Brodeur with a 20th OA pick. Detroit also had some high picks in the late 80's but did better with their later round picks. But both teams retooled again in the 90's, and 2000s while remaining competitive for 20+ years, before and after the NHL salary cap. Doing so require exceptional scouting, drafting, development and asset management - finding value in late round picks, 2nd tier and European free agents and astute trades. It should be noted that Lou Lamoriello, Jimmy Devellano, Brian Murray, Scotty Bowman, Jim Nill and Ken Holland are probably the most respected and often emulated hockey operations people in the business. So a New Jersey or Detroit model is possible, but you have to have the front office talent and be able to maintain the type of continuity that Detroit and New Jersey have enjoyed.

Most teams fall between these scenarios. They have neither been futile for decades nor have they been consistently competitive. For the Canucks, I would not support a full on 'blow it up' rebuild as we have not been through multiple failed retool attempts (Leafs) or been forced to sell off core players that we couldn't afford to re-sign (Buffalo). But unlike Detroit, we have to make deeper changes to get back into contention, and we can't count on finding HOF players in the 5th round. The Canucks need to accurately assess where they are in terms of age, contract structure, competitive potential and the state of team's prospect pool. IMO - as we approach the TDL, the playoffs are a mirage. The sensible thing is to sell off the veterans on expiring contracts and try to improve our draft position.

We have had 4 pretty good drafts in a row and have accumulated a pretty decent young prospect pool - Boeser, Virtanen, McCann, Demko, Horvat, Shinkaruk, Cassels, Subban, Hutton, Gaunce, and added Baertschi and Vey through trades. But there are 2 key pieces missing - a true #1 C and a top pairing puck moving defenseman. IMO - one more really solid draft will set the team up for the next 10 years. We can probably pick up 1 of those 2 key pieces and find the other through free agency or a trade.
 

WhiteCurse

Registered User
Jan 4, 2013
1,304
234
Canada VI
Canucks have given ample indication they are out of the playoffs. Let's just accept that. So, moving forward, what is the best option set?

Sell vets, play kids, right? Not according to the geniuses that post here. They'd prefer to keep the slowest forward tandem in the league and build around them. This is just ridiculous in this league. Speed is needed for success in this modern era. Slowness cannot be disguised. We have seen this every game this season. All the other slowpokes are gone from the team. Except the top line. They remain.

Where is the outcry? Where is the sound hockey sense that once infused this board? Idiots shouting down sensible posters has become the norm. Adolescent analysis doesn't sound better larded with teen-age rhetoric. Except here.

This board and this team deserve each other. They are co-dependent and crazy.

So trade off are best leaders and players and let the kids sink ?

You cant do that to a young team, you need good guys in the room to show the way. No one on this team works harder then the Sedins. All the young guys see how hard they work.

Have alittle class man the Sedins have given everything to this team and city. They are the ****ing heart of this team
 

D0ctorCool

Registered User
Dec 3, 2008
4,685
674
Vancouver
So trade off are best leaders and players and let the kids sink ?

You cant do that to a young team, you need good guys in the room to show the way. No one on this team works harder then the Sedins. All the young guys see how hard they work.

Have alittle class man the Sedins have given everything to this team and city. They are the ****ing heart of this team

How long do we have Virtanen and Horvat stare at the Sedins then?
And do we really need a 1-1 ratio of mentors to pupils? When Sundin joined the Canucks, he had a positive effect on the entire team, and he was only here for a year.

Nobody is untradeable... Unless Benning is your GM
 

coastal_nuck

Registered User
Jun 28, 2006
1,285
224
I'm full team tank but if the Sedins don't want to leave, we shouldn't be looking to trade them. If they really want a shot at the cup and we can give them that opportunity, sure. But they've done enough for our community and the team that you don't rush these two out of town. They've more than earned their right to finish off their careers here.
 

Wildcarder

Registered User
Oct 21, 2008
1,775
800
Toronto
If you're choosing mentors/leaders or players to build a culture of a team around I'd much rather have the Sedins than a player like Prust. Far more valuable for the development of the young guys.
 

WhiteCurse

Registered User
Jan 4, 2013
1,304
234
Canada VI
How long do we have Virtanen and Horvat stare at the Sedins then?
And do we really need a 1-1 ratio of mentors to pupils? When Sundin joined the Canucks, he had a positive effect on the entire team, and he was only here for a year.

Nobody is untradeable... Unless Benning is your GM

Just feed the kids to the wolves because new and shiny is better.

Can Horvat and Virt line play againts top pairing dmen night in and out ? No ! Horvat struggled the first half the year trying to figuring out the 2nd line role. Virt is still learning how tobe a nhl player all togeather.
 

Seattle Totems

Registered User
Apr 14, 2010
3,932
1,209
The Canucks should not trade the Sedins but they need to trade pending UFA's such as Vrbata and Hamhuis by the deadline. It is pointless to keep them on the team now with the playoffs out of reach. This is not a situation like Edmonton where players are jumping ship and no-one will want to sign here. They can always make an offer to re-sign Hamhuis and pick up more veterans in the off-season.

The Canucks need as many draft picks and prospects as they can get. A second first rounder in this draft should be paramount.
 

LeftCoast

Registered User
Aug 1, 2006
9,052
304
Vancouver
Canucks have given ample indication they are out of the playoffs. Let's just accept that. So, moving forward, what is the best option set?

Sell vets, play kids, right? Not according to the geniuses that post here. They'd prefer to keep the slowest forward tandem in the league and build around them. This is just ridiculous in this league. Speed is needed for success in this modern era. Slowness cannot be disguised. We have seen this every game this season. All the other slowpokes are gone from the team. Except the top line. They remain.

Where is the outcry? Where is the sound hockey sense that once infused this board? Idiots shouting down sensible posters has become the norm. Adolescent analysis doesn't sound better larded with teen-age rhetoric. Except here.

This board and this team deserve each other. They are co-dependent and crazy.


Adolescent analysis and teenage rhetoric is when you propose a 'simple' solution that is neither simple nor feasible. Sound hockey sense would consider:

  1. The Sedins have NMCs that, on top of the normal non-limited NMC, requires them to be traded as a package, not individually.
  2. Together the Sedins consume $12M in salary cap space each year until 2018.
  3. No teams have $12M in cap space that could be readily freed up to acquire the Sedins.
  4. Even if the Sedins waived their NMC and a deal could be structured that freed up enough cap space, the value returned would be offset by the salary cap machinations. Look what the Sens - Leafs had to do today just to accommodate a trade that was basically Dion Phaneuff for a 2017 2nd round pick.

These unassailable facts alone make them unmovable. However adolescent analysis would also ignore that:

  • The Sedins' game has never relied upon speed.
  • Despite a lack of speed, in the last 10 years, only Ovechkin, Crosby, Thornton and St. Louis have more points than Henrik and Daniel.
  • Despite their age, Henrik and Daniel still lead the team in scoring, and are on pace for 65 - 70 point seasons.
  • Henrik is the team captain, Daniel is an alternate and both are core leaders on the team. Leadership is not just a letter on your sweater, everyone who has ever played with them, coached or managed them has cited how important their leadership is.
  • For a team that needs to rebuild, it is crucial to keep key veteran leaders around to mentor the younger players. I can think of no one better than Henrik and Daniel.
  • They are the franchise leaders in almost every offensive category. When they retire, it is a given that their jerseys are retired and almost certain they are inducted in the HHOF. Few teams trade these types of players, and to trade 2 at once is unheard of.
  • The Sedins are fixtures in the community. Trading them would alienate the fan base and cost the team in good will, merchandising, advertising and probably season ticket holders.
 

WhiteCurse

Registered User
Jan 4, 2013
1,304
234
Canada VI
Adolescent analysis and teenage rhetoric is when you propose a 'simple' solution that is neither simple nor feasible. Sound hockey sense would consider:

  1. The Sedins have NMCs that, on top of the normal non-limited NMC, requires them to be traded as a package, not individually.
  2. Together the Sedins consume $12M in salary cap space each year until 2018.
  3. No teams have $12M in cap space that could be readily freed up to acquire the Sedins.
  4. Even if the Sedins waived their NMC and a deal could be structured that freed up enough cap space, the value returned would be offset by the salary cap machinations. Look what the Sens - Leafs had to do today just to accommodate a trade that was basically Dion Phaneuff for a 2017 2nd round pick.

These unassailable facts alone make them unmovable. However adolescent analysis would also ignore that:

  • The Sedins' game has never relied upon speed.
  • Despite a lack of speed, in the last 10 years, only Ovechkin, Crosby, Thornton and St. Louis have more points than Henrik and Daniel.
  • Despite their age, Henrik and Daniel still lead the team in scoring, and are on pace for 65 - 70 point seasons.
  • Henrik is the team captain, Daniel is an alternate and both are core leaders on the team. Leadership is not just a letter on your sweater, everyone who has ever played with them, coached or managed them has cited how important their leadership is.
  • For a team that needs to rebuild, it is crucial to keep key veteran leaders around to mentor the younger players. I can think of no one better than Henrik and Daniel.
  • They are the franchise leaders in almost every offensive category. When they retire, it is a given that their jerseys are retired and almost certain they are inducted in the HHOF. Few teams trade these types of players, and to trade 2 at once is unheard of.
  • The Sedins are fixtures in the community. Trading them would alienate the fan base and cost the team in good will, merchandising, advertising and probably season ticket holders.

Great post agree 100%.
 

KeninsFan

Fire Benning already
Feb 6, 2012
5,489
0
I'm full team tank but if the Sedins don't want to leave, we shouldn't be looking to trade them. If they really want a shot at the cup and we can give them that opportunity, sure. But they've done enough for our community and the team that you don't rush these two out of town. They've more than earned their right to finish off their careers here.

Benning has proven he can build a bottom 5-10 team even with the Sedins and Edler-Tanev. I would normally say a team with the Sedins cannot tank properly (bottom 1-3) but I believe in Benning!
 

Proto

Registered User
Jan 30, 2010
11,523
1
The whole point of tanking right now is that hopefully you can get a game-changer and maybe be competitive again in 3 seasons as the Sedins become good 2nd liners in the sunset of their careers. That would be the ideal "avoid being the Oilers" scenario here.

I'd guess at least half the people that want to tank right now want to do it for that reason -- even though, ironically, we're often derided as wanting to follow the Oilers down the path into hell.
 

Breakers

Make Mirrored Visors Legal Again
Aug 5, 2014
22,338
20,900
Denver Colorado
If Vancouver Losses the next 2 I think that seals the deal for the deadline.

Benning wouldn't be that dumb to hold onto players after that.

:shakehead:shakehead
 

D0ctorCool

Registered User
Dec 3, 2008
4,685
674
Vancouver
The whole point of tanking right now is that hopefully you can get a game-changer and maybe be competitive again in 3 seasons as the Sedins become good 2nd liners in the sunset of their careers. That would be the ideal "avoid being the Oilers" scenario here.

I'd guess at least half the people that want to tank right now want to do it for that reason -- even though, ironically, we're often derided as wanting to follow the Oilers down the path into hell.

I think the age gap between the Sedin's and the new emerging core is a little too great, making it unlikely that we make any sort of Cup run with the Sedin's on the team. There's a strong chance they may have already played their last playoff game with the Canucks.

Let that sink in.
 
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