The state of the Habs Rebuild - The Next step

[OneSharpMarble]

Beck is starting to look like our most valuable prospect. Demidov is incredible but Beck seems like someone who can bring leadership, strength and grit to group of skilled guys who are as soft as tissue paper.

 

[Sorinth]

I think you're a great poster but there's some ignorance in this post.

Tampa Bay never rebuilt. They kept everyone and the little they did trade they either re-signed in the same off-season to a long-term deal (Prospal) or to try and get a starting goalie and depth (Richards for Smith and Jokinen).

Pittsburgh was on the verge of bankruptcy.

Colorado are a bit of an odd one. They went half-rebuild/half-compete and were in the abyss for roughly ten years.

Regardless of whether you want to classify it as a rebuild or tanking or scorched earth or any other term is irrelevant to the point that it takes a lot of time to climb out of the basement and expecting us to do it quicker then pretty much every other successful basement to cup team is a case of fans being impatient and not understanding what rebuilding actually entails.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Regardless of whether you want to classify it as a rebuild or tanking or scorched earth or any other term is irrelevant to the point that it takes a lot of time to climb out of the basement and expecting us to do it quicker then pretty much every other successful basement to cup team is a case of fans being impatient and not understanding what rebuilding actually entails.

That's the point, TB drafted Stamkos in '08 and were in the Conference Finals in '11 after acquiring grizzled vet Dwayne Roloson mid-year. Then they missed a couple of times again. They never sold anyone.

There's no point in bringing them up. They didn't do anything like us at all. That matters. They're not an example. They were always trying to compete. Much like the Blackhawks in the 00s.

 

[WinterLion]

Having young guys playing important roles is great for the rebuild. They are going to make mistakes... as long as they are learning from them it is golden.

 

[Sorinth]

But what about that winning culture that was so important when we should have been tanking harder?
I'm sorry but you can't have it both ways...

Many of those teams also didn't try to tank harder, Tampa for example kept Lecavalier and St-Louis while rebuilding with Stamkos and Hedman. Chicago was making trades for guys like Havlat and signing the top UFAs at the time like Khavibuhlin even while going through the rebuild.

That's the point, TB drafted Stamkos in '08 and were in the Conference Finals in '11 after acquiring grizzled vet Dwayne Roloson mid-year. Then they missed a couple of times again. They never sold anyone.

There's no point in bringing them up. They didn't do anything like us at all. That matters. They're not an example. They were always trying to compete. Much like the Blackhawks in the 00s.

And then they ended up back in the basement in the two years after that. Which shows that rebuilds take time, aren't linear, and there will be ups and downs where it seems the team seems to regress before they figure it out.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

The only hard tanks that won the Cup post-lockout are Pittsburgh and Washington.

Many of those teams also didn't try to tank harder, Tampa for example kept Lecavalier and St-Louis while rebuilding with Stamkos and Hedman. Chicago was making trades for guys like Havlat and signing the top UFAs at the time like Khavibuhlin even while going through the rebuild.


And then they ended up back in the basement in the two years after that. Which shows that rebuilds take time, aren't linear, and there will be ups and downs where it seems the team seems to regress before they figure it out.

For sure but I'll take a Conference final (/s) over another season in the dumps (that management is actively trying to get out of). If the year looks like the first 7 games, it's a massive failure. Period. Injuries are an absolute bitch so I won't call for anyone's head but the honeymoon needs to end. We need to see serious improvement. Our apex four years in can't be 22-23 with a worse year following that. That's alarming.

 

[DAChampion]

I assume that HuGO don't want to thank the season, and that they'd be likely to trade for help if this keeps up.

 

[Rapala]

Many of those teams also didn't try to tank harder, Tampa for example kept Lecavalier and St-Louis while rebuilding with Stamkos and Hedman. Chicago was making trades for guys like Havlat and signing the top UFAs at the time like Khavibuhlin even while going through the rebuild.

I get what you are saying but we have not made any significant strides to fall back on since Day 1 of the rebuild.
It's easy to see it happens but take New Jersey for example they played a shitload of one goal games the year prior to breaking through.
That they fell back the next season is irrelevant to the fact that they broke through.

I was all in for 2 years of complete desolation no matter what but in year two we started winning too many games in a hugely impactful draft.
I bought into the kool aid that a winning culture was more important for a young team despite feeling it was utter BS.
Not having players like Lecavalier and St Louis in the fold makes it worse not better.
So now if we fall back to the Sharks level of ineptitude how will that be looked on as okay?

 

[DAChampion]

The only hard tanks that won the Cup post-lockout are Pittsburgh and Washington.

Hard tanks are almost certainly a obsolete with the new lottery rules.

Though we may soon be able to count Edmonton.

 

[Sorinth]

The only hard tanks that won the Cup post-lockout are Pittsburgh and Washington.



For sure but I'll take a Conference final (/s) over another season in the dumps (that management is actively trying to get out of). If the year looks like the first 7 games, it's a massive failure. Period. Injuries are an absolute bitch so I won't call for anyone's head but the honeymoon needs to end. We need to see serious improvement. Our apex four years in can't be 22-23 with a worse year following that. That's alarming.

We all would love to see big steps being taken by players and the team, but no a step back isn't some massive failure it's a completely normal part of development and progress. Hughes even talked about how we might see a step back and not to panic when talking about expectations for Slafkovsky this season, and the same is true for the team.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I assume that HuGO don't want to thank the season, and that they'd be likely to trade for help if this keeps up.

They've stated they are always looking to get better, but at the right price, for the right player, without impeding on their long term plans, which is slowly, but surely, getting better. In other words, they won't be looking for quick easy fixes that would jeapordize their commitment to long term building.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

We all would love to see big steps being taken by players and the team, but no a step back isn't some massive failure it's a completely normal part of development and progress. Hughes even talked about how we might see a step back and not to panic when talking about expectations for Slafkovsky this season, and the same is true for the team.

Hard disagree from me. The team hasn't shown anywhere near enough potential that a step-back isn't a problem. No way.

They've stated they are always looking to get better, but at the right price, for the right player, without impeding on their long term plans, which is slowly, but surely, getting better. In other words, they won't be looking for quick easy fixes that would jeapordize their commitment to long term building.

Which is what we hear all the time from every rebuilding club in the league. It's in page 11 of the GM's manual to rebuilding. Means absolutely nothing.

'I would love to get better today all the while building a long-term project'

Yeah, who doesn't?

 

[Tyson]

It’s not about wins or loses. At the start of the year I said they would get about the same points they did last year.

It’s about how they are playing. I don’t care if they lose but play with energy, show up at puck drop, and don’t get globetrotted for minutes on end in their own zone.

Work hard and be competitive, ffs, is that too much to ask at this point of the rebuild? How anyone can watch these 7 games not expect more is crazy.

At some point you have to stop using the “rebuild” as an excuse and expect more.

Amen!

Team also started to cover him a lot more, it's not like there is anyone else to cover on the team outside of the first line anyhow.

Beck is starting to look like our most valuable prospect. Demidov is incredible but Beck seems like someone who can bring leadership, strength and grit to group of skilled guys who are as soft as tissue paper.

He has impressed me watching him skate and compete in Laval. He throws solid hits too.

 

[DAChampion]

Hard disagree from me. The team hasn't shown anywhere near enough potential that a step-back isn't a problem. No way.



Which is what we hear all the time from every rebuilding club in the league. It's in page 11 of the GM's manual to rebuilding. Means absolutely nothing.

'I would love to get better today all the while building a long-term project'

Yeah, who doesn't?

The Habs are asset rich. They have cap space, tons of B prospects, and tons of 2nd and 3rd round picks.

They could have pulled off the equivalent of the Laine acquisition a few times over.

 

[Sorinth]

Hard disagree from me. The team hasn't shown anywhere near enough potential that a step-back isn't a problem. No way.

Given that a step back also means a better draft pick then I don't see why not showing enough potential would make it a problem, if anything getting the better draft pick is more important to the team who hasn't shown enough potential.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Given that a step back also means a better draft pick then I don't see why not showing enough potential would make it a problem, if anything getting the better draft pick is more important to the team who hasn't shown enough potential.

I'd rather the guys we've actually drafted and have on board lead us to win more games, personally. That way it doesn't feel like we're behind the eight-ball. I'd rather pick 11th this year than 5th.

Man, given the teams in our division, I don't see how you guys don't look around and are okay with another lottery pick. It's like you look at Ottawa, Detroit and Buffalo and go 'yes, I want'

There's nothing better for a rebuild than your young guys leading you to wins.

 

[JoelWarlord]

Our apex four years in can't be 22-23 with a worse year following that. That's alarming.

Why is it alarming? It's frustrating to sit through as a fan but I don't really know why it should impact the medium to long term view. If everyone were healthy and we had a group of solid veterans I'd be concerned, but they're not and we don't. We're currently dressing between 4 and 6 forwards who will be on the roster long term and of all our young D Guhle and Hutson are the only locks to stick around. The crown jewel of the rebuild so far is still in Russia. Montembeault has been good but our backup who doesn't really matter long term has posted an .880.

We suck right now because Dach is struggling with getting back up to speed right now and we don't have the depth to handle Slafkovsky, Laine, and Guhle being out at the same time, and Primeau has been terrible. Savard, Armia, Dvorak, and Anderson who aren't in the long term plans continue to suck and drag the team down. That's unfortunate but those are not permanent problems and replacing some shitty bottom sixers and depth D/adding a backup G isn't going to be difficult once the vet contracts are actually gone. Dach will either figure it out or we'll bring in a vet as a stopgap using the newly available Dvorak money and probably a bit more.

This kind of stuff happens with rebuilding teams all the time, New Jersey squeaked into the playoffs in the Hall MVP season and then had a bad year, a mediocre year, and then two extremely bad years (with the fourth year being the worst) before they jumped to 112 points. Teams of 20-23 year old players can look completely different when they become teams of 22-25 year old players.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Why is it alarming? It's frustrating to sit through as a fan but I don't really know why it should impact the medium to long term view. If everyone were healthy and we had a group of solid veterans I'd be concerned, but they're not and we don't. We're currently dressing between 4 and 6 forwards who will be on the roster long term and of all our young D Guhle and Hutson are the only locks to stick around. The crown jewel of the rebuild so far is still in Russia. Montembeault has been good but our backup who doesn't really matter long term has posted an .880.

We suck right now because Dach is struggling with getting back up to speed right now and we don't have the depth to handle Slafkovsky, Laine, and Guhle being out at the same time, and Primeau has been terrible. Savard, Armia, Dvorak, and Anderson who aren't in the long term plans continue to suck and drag the team down. That's unfortunate but those are not permanent problems and replacing some shitty bottom sixers and depth D/adding a backup G isn't going to be difficult once the vet contracts are actually gone. Dach will either figure it out or we'll bring in a vet as a stopgap using the newly available Dvorak money and probably a bit more.

This kind of stuff happens with rebuilding teams all the time, New Jersey squeaked into the playoffs in the Hall MVP season and then had a bad year, a mediocre year, and then two extremely bad years (with the fourth year being the worst) before they jumped to 112 points. Teams of 20-23 year old players can look completely different when they become teams of 22-25 year old players.

The Devils are another club that was shit for 10 years. Not interested. I'm already losing interest in this one and we're nearing 10 at this point.

 

[Sorinth]

I'd rather the guys we've actually drafted and have on board lead us to win more games, personally. That way it doesn't feel like we're behind the eight-ball. I'd rather pick 11th this year than 5th.

Man, given the teams in our division, I don't see how you guys don't look around and are okay with another lottery pick. It's like you look at Ottawa, Detroit and Buffalo and go 'yes, I want'

There's nothing better for a rebuild than your young guys leading you to wins.

Look I would prefer a couple of our young guys take big steps and we finish outside the bottom-10 as well. What I disagree with is the claim that anything outside of clear progress this year is a massive failure.

 

[Gravity]

Regression is part of the norm for any rebuild. What's a bit more concerning is the guys that form the "core", saying they're tired of losing and want to compete yet lay goose eggs night after night.

 

[CHwest]

Why is it alarming? It's frustrating to sit through as a fan but I don't really know why it should impact the medium to long term view. If everyone were healthy and we had a group of solid veterans I'd be concerned, but they're not and we don't. We're currently dressing between 4 and 6 forwards who will be on the roster long term and of all our young D Guhle and Hutson are the only locks to stick around. The crown jewel of the rebuild so far is still in Russia. Montembeault has been good but our backup who doesn't really matter long term has posted an .880.

We suck right now because Dach is struggling with getting back up to speed right now and we don't have the depth to handle Slafkovsky, Laine, and Guhle being out at the same time, and Primeau has been terrible. Savard, Armia, Dvorak, and Anderson who aren't in the long term plans continue to suck and drag the team down. That's unfortunate but those are not permanent problems and replacing some shitty bottom sixers and depth D/adding a backup G isn't going to be difficult once the vet contracts are actually gone. Dach will either figure it out or we'll bring in a vet as a stopgap using the newly available Dvorak money and probably a bit more.

This kind of stuff happens with rebuilding teams all the time, New Jersey squeaked into the playoffs in the Hall MVP season and then had a bad year, a mediocre year, and then two extremely bad years (with the fourth year being the worst) before they jumped to 112 points. Teams of 20-23 year old players can look completely different when they become teams of 22-25 year old players.

Good teams have great players, either draft them or trade for them but nobody is giving up a good player for a mid teens pick. You need those high picks to build a SC contender, there are no short cuts.

 

[Habby4Life]

Regression is part of the norm for any rebuild. What's a bit more concerning is the guys that form the "core", saying they're tired of losing and want to compete yet lay goose eggs night after night.

CC and NS are the two carrying the rest of the scrubs

 

[Walksss]

Well I'm not impressed with the play of the team so far, it's been a very tough schedule so far and our youth and inexperience has shown. I think the adversity will make us better. Nothing is given in the NHL and these kids are gonna learn that the hard way, they will respond appropriately or we will have to make changes in the direction of the core. Either way we will get performance to evaluate and project from.

That being said it's 7 games in a condensed time frame against a bunch of cup contenders. Overreacting to that in such a small sample size is just the usual BS on here. There is plenty of season left to show progression and I'm sure they will. The mentality and culture on the team is great, as long as they have the commitment and work ethic things will fall in to place, but it takes time.

Either you have the patience to live through the rebuild or you don't. If you only want to live through the good times, we'll see you in 2-3 years. Things ain't gonna be perfect then either lol.

 

[JoelWarlord]

The Devils are another club that was shit for 10 years. Not interested.

Sure but I was talking about the 4 years preceding a 112 point season where their current group emerged to illustrate that young teams taking a step back doesn't even mean they can't be good in the immediate future, let alone over the medium to long term. I was not saying that we need to emulate the Devils going back to 2012 so I dunno what you even mean by "not interested".

I'm already losing interest in this one and we're nearing 10 at this point.

I don't disagree that we sucked a lot in the 2010s but we don't have anything to show for it that helps us now. Galcheyuk became Domi and now Anderson. Sergachev became Drouin who's gone. Kotkaniemi became Dvorak. Matheson and Suzuki via Petry and Pacioretty are the only assets of consequence in our system that originate from pre-2018. Price, Danault, Weber, Tatar, and Gallagher returned zero assets. We had been riding on the 2005 & 2007 drafts for 15 years and there was nothing in the pipeline after that.

We had no cap to do anything differently in 2021-22, we were capped out and couldn't even afford to KEEP Chiarot, Kulak, Toffoli, and Lehkonen, let alone try to add to that team. This year was the first season it was remotely plausible to add anything of consequence to the roster and we landed the third best forward available. I don't love scorched earth rebuilds in general and would prefer the Bruins approach but that requires you to actually have a system and a good veteran core to continue competing with.

Good teams have great players, either draft them or trade for them but nobody is giving up a good player for a mid teens pick. You need those high picks to build a SC contender, there are no short cuts.

Honestly I don't even think the "great" players are what we're missing right now in terms of being a playoff/bubble team. Of course we need to improve at the top of the lineup to grow into a contending team, but our healthy top 6 is pretty good and in terms of immediate roster quality the biggest issue is we have a total black hole of veteran depth. We're really missing the guys like eg. Gardiner/Kadri/JVR/Bozak from the Toronto rebuild right now.

 

[Habby4Life]

Well I'm not impressed with the play of the team so far, it's been a very tough schedule so far and our youth and inexperience has shown. I think the adversity will make us better. Nothing is given in the NHL and these kids are gonna learn that the hard way, they will respond appropriately or we will have to make changes in the direction of the core. Either way we will get performance to evaluate and project from.

That being said it's 7 games in a condensed time frame against a bunch of cup contenders. Overreacting to that in such a small sample size is just the usual BS on here. There is plenty of season left to show progression and I'm sure they will. The mentality and culture on the team is great, as long as they have the commitment and work ethic things will fall in to place, but it takes time.

Either you have the patience to live through the rebuild or you don't. If you only want to live through the good times, we'll see you in 2-3 years. Things ain't gonna be perfect then either lol.

Ottawa, Penguins, Kings, Isles, and Sens are cup contenders, seriously, lol.

We have been patient and lived with garbage hockey for far more than 3yrs. There is nothing wrong with expecting heading into yr4 of a rebuild to play better than how they are.

Can’t use “rebuild” forever, at some point results matter.