The state of the Habs Rebuild - The Next step

[Lafleurs Guy]

He was a 1st OA pick, there's nothing wrong with saying he has elite potential as saying it means nothing. What happens is the only thing that matters. If you are GM and were asked if you had enough high end talent and you go well I got Slaf, Demidov, Hutson, Reinbacher, then you are just basing it off the hope they all pan out which of course could happen but that's not the poin, outside of the Bedard's of the world, most prospects are wild cards for a GM until they aren't.

The poster asked if we felt we got the high end talent to have a successful rebuild. Obviously we can't know for sure. We are basing it on their past performance and giving an answer based on POTENTIAL. It is a predictive question.

I think you are applying too much skepticsm to the question. That's cool though, I get where you're coming from. Personally, I feel pretty good about where we're going.

We will see.

 

[montreal]

The poster asked if we felt we got the high end talent to have a successful rebuild. Obviously we can't know for sure. We are basing it on their past performance and giving an answer based on POTENTIAL. It is a predictive question.

I think you are applying too much skepticsm to the question. That's cool though, I get where you're coming from. Personally, I feel pretty good about where we're going.

We will see.

You did it! You got my point. That's it, it's that easy. I'm just saying there's no way anyone can know if we have enough high end talent as there's no way anyone on this board can say that guys like Hutson, Roy, Reinbacher, Fowler, etc.. are going to b whatever in the NHL.

If others think we have enough high end talent then great, and we clearly might have but I would be surprised to very surprised if so.

This has nothing to do with where I think we are going, I fully support Hughes, Gorton and MSL and have repeatedly said I feel that they are among our best assets in the organization. This is just saying that you can think you know what we have in our prospects but that doesn't mean much when times goes by and the warts start to show up more. I jus think the Habs have a long ways to go and that could change in a hurry as we are going to get a much clearer picture after next season or two now that just about all our top prospects are at the NHL/AHL level.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

You did it! You got my point. That's it, it's that easy. I'm just saying there's no way anyone can know if we have enough high end talent as there's no way anyone on this board can say that guys like Hutson, Roy, Reinbacher, Fowler, etc.. are going to b whatever in the NHL.

If others think we have enough high end talent then great, and we clearly might have but I would be surprised to very surprised if so.

This has nothing to do with where I think we are going, I fully support Hughes, Gorton and MSL and have repeatedly said I feel that they are among our best assets in the organization. This is just saying that you can think you know what we have in our prospects but that doesn't mean much when times goes by and the warts start to show up more. I jus think the Habs have a long ways to go and that could change in a hurry as we are going to get a much clearer picture after next season or two now that just about all our top prospects are at the NHL/AHL level.

I wrote we can't know for sure several posts ago... Of course we can't know for sure.

The question wasn't 'Are you SURE you have acquired top end talent?' The question was if you think you have.

There's a big difference between not knowing if you have top talent and not knowing anything... those are two very different things.

 

[Beer and Chips]

Romanov is two years ahead of Guhle and he is just starting to come into form. We are trying to predict prospects without one year of professional experience and arguing about it. BTW I miss Romy.
Back to topic.

 

[Miller Time]

no I haven't liked what they have done with some,

Slaf - rushed, terrible rookie year, talk about sending him to the AHL before MSL stepped in. I do believe in MSL and have said I think he and Hughes are among our best assets, so I do hope he can develop Slaf into a great player.

I'm honestly flabbergasted that this is still a take with how well, and how quickly, Slaf has progressed. I'm sorry, but I couldn't disagree more with the "rushed" take.

"Terrible" rookie year because he was growing into the force we saw in year 2 at exactly the right level... I will never get the allure & obsession of big numbers at lesser levels as an end of itself, or necessary part of the development pathway. The examples are countless (especially these two weeks during the Olympics), the appropriate level for an athlete to develop is an individual question, not a matter of averages.

Dach I really haven't seen much of but I don't know what they could have done different with his development, as it's not like he was going to the AHL to work on things.

I know that you realize that development doesn't stop at the NHL level...

How the team works with players at practice in the NHL is a huge part of the development process. Dach in year 1 with the Habs progressed positively, and in year 2 was showing glimpses of breaking out before getting hurt. The work he has put in with the team is a significant part of that.

Guhle - rushed to the NHL, I would have put him in the AHL to work on his offense, I haven't been as impressed with him in the NHL as many on here seem to be. I don't watch the Habs much though, but he still has a lot of work to do.

Again with the "rushed" narrative.

What's your metric of that? He's performing at a level that puts him near the top of his draft class, what level would he be at without being "rushed" in your mind?

Of course he still has a lot of work to do, he's 22. that's a given. But it's a very thin argument to make that he "should" be further along than he is, and even weaker argument to suggest he'd be further if he had spent more time in the minors.

Drysdale is a dman from that draft class one might argue was rushed... if only because of his confidence and performance going in the toilet after his injury. But Guhle? I don't see the argument as having any merit, especially considering that he also has battled injuries yet has continued to progress rapidly in his performance through 2 seasons.

Newhook I also don't know much about so I don't know what they could have done different with him either.

No one outside of the player & team can speak definitively to what "could've been done differently", we all just speculate.

We do know that he took a positive step forward in his overall level of play and impact in his first season with the organization. This despite significant injury.

Xhekaj just terrible, really hate how they handled him. I felt he had no business going directly to the NHL, his D needed way too much work imo plus some work on his mobility. I do like they sent him down this year at least and it sounds like it helped him a lot, though I wouldn't have called him up so soon as he didn't seem to be getting the message.

How many other undrafted born in 2001 players are at 95 NHL games? How many undrafted players passed 100NHL games before they turned 24? I'm guessing the number for both is extremely low. Not sure how anyone could suggest that Xhekaj progression has been anything short of remarkable.

I'm really curious as to what organization you think is doing a good job of development, and what examples they would have of integrating undrafted Dmen and supporting them to NHL level of performance at such an early stage.

Struble I don't mind as much, I would have kept him down longer to work on the offense but I never really believed in the offense to begin with and he was Laval's best D at the time. I have liked him but never was overly impressed with his game outside of the physical part. He looked much better in the AHL then I expected so it makes sense they moved him up quicker then I would have.

oddly, Strubble is the one prospect I personally would've preferred to see stay in the AHL all year... but that's just preference, I can acknowledge that my preference doesn't reflect the actual outcome of their approach with him thus far.

Harris is a tougher one cause I felt he was NHL ready but without NHL size/strength I had concerns. He's so smart and poised I figured he would be ok. A stint in the AHL to work on his offense might have been a good idea but I can see both sides on this one plus we had to rush some of these young D last year due to all the injuries.

I'll add Roy, I love that they didn't call him up right away and then he went into a bit of a slump and then battled through it so that was great to see but still would have liked to see him work on things in Laval.

both are subject to the same development approach the organization is taking... which is to say, balancing the priority of individual pathway with the real time needs of the organization. Understandably, the higher value prospects get more individualized treatment, but if anything, a hallmark of the strength of this organizational approach is their relative consistency (a consistency in treating players as individuals and trying to support their needs, which means different timing and thresholds, which some mistake as inconsistency).


Appreciate the reply. Obviously disagree with many of your assessments, but that's the fun of a message board, engaging with differing perspectives.

 

[Miller Time]

MB was terrible at his job so nothing he did says much of anything to me.

Agree there!

trading assets and cap space for picks is the easy part compared to what comes next but we are on a message board where posters actually believe that when a team is tanking the GM tells his players to lose on purpose. Or that coaching and development aren't important.

I don't think it's as easy as you make it out to be. The pressures (from ownership, media, fan base, internal competitiveness, peers etc) to compete right away and/or improve the team in the short term are significant. A rational for "quick wins" can and do often cloud the judgement of many leaders, perhaps even moreso in such a publicly scrutinized and winner-take-all environment as pro sport. Sacrificing the important for the urgent isn't just an eishenhower matrix meme.

This is one of the best prospect pools we have ever had but that's not what this is about. The question was do we have the high end assets to be a contender. You can have the greatest prospect pool in history, it doesn't mean shit if they end up busting. No one knows what the future holds for most prospects, that's why when a GM is looking at his team if asked if he has enough high end talent to be a contender, I am willing to be they will not look at their farm system and count their eggs before they hatch.

i see what your saying... perhaps I misunderstood the discussion. From a prospect pool pov, I think we can make projections about wether or not an assembled pool has the elements necessary to build a contender. That's a very different thing than suggesting that the assets on hand are sufficient to contend.

The Panthers have the assets on hand to contend (and win), but as they sit today, I'd say that they do not have the prospect pool in place to build a contender. In a cap system, it's virtually impossible to balance maximizing a contention window and sustaining it long term. That's by design really.

So, no disagreement from me that we will need to see IF this impressive prospect group yields the 2-3 elite players needed to open up a contending window. I think we do have those pieces, but you are absolutely right that it doesn't mean a thing until they progress from prospect/elite U25 players to bonafide elite NHLers.

Having 2-3 forwards, dmen and 1-2 goalies in the organization that all have elite NHL ceilings is not common, and not easy to do IMO.

Future is bright !

 

[KevSkillz4]

One thing for sure, this rebuild is perfect at this moment.

 

[Nico Cauzuki]

Release the draft video already

 

[KevSkillz4]

Release the draft video already

I can't wait to see that !!

I hope we are going to know where they have Michael Hage on their list.

Everyone are hype on Demidov (me too), but Michael Hage hype should be there!!

 

[montreal]

I'm honestly flabbergasted that this is still a take with how well, and how quickly, Slaf has progressed. I'm sorry, but I couldn't disagree more with the "rushed" take.

"Terrible" rookie year because he was growing into the force we saw in year 2 at exactly the right level... I will never get the allure & obsession of big numbers at lesser levels as an end of itself, or necessary part of the development pathway. The examples are countless (especially these two weeks during the Olympics), the appropriate level for an athlete to develop is an individual question, not a matter of averages.




I know that you realize that development doesn't stop at the NHL level...

How the team works with players at practice in the NHL is a huge part of the development process. Dach in year 1 with the Habs progressed positively, and in year 2 was showing glimpses of breaking out before getting hurt. The work he has put in with the team is a significant part of that.



Again with the "rushed" narrative.

What's your metric of that? He's performing at a level that puts him near the top of his draft class, what level would he be at without being "rushed" in your mind?

Of course he still has a lot of work to do, he's 22. that's a given. But it's a very thin argument to make that he "should" be further along than he is, and even weaker argument to suggest he'd be further if he had spent more time in the minors.

Drysdale is a dman from that draft class one might argue was rushed... if only because of his confidence and performance going in the toilet after his injury. But Guhle? I don't see the argument as having any merit, especially considering that he also has battled injuries yet has continued to progress rapidly in his performance through 2 seasons.




No one outside of the player & team can speak definitively to what "could've been done differently", we all just speculate.

We do know that he took a positive step forward in his overall level of play and impact in his first season with the organization. This despite significant injury.




How many other undrafted born in 2001 players are at 95 NHL games? How many undrafted players passed 100NHL games before they turned 24? I'm guessing the number for both is extremely low. Not sure how anyone could suggest that Xhekaj progression has been anything short of remarkable.

I'm really curious as to what organization you think is doing a good job of development, and what examples they would have of integrating undrafted Dmen and supporting them to NHL level of performance at such an early stage.




oddly, Strubble is the one prospect I personally would've preferred to see stay in the AHL all year... but that's just preference, I can acknowledge that my preference doesn't reflect the actual outcome of their approach with him thus far.





both are subject to the same development approach the organization is taking... which is to say, balancing the priority of individual pathway with the real time needs of the organization. Understandably, the higher value prospects get more individualized treatment, but if anything, a hallmark of the strength of this organizational approach is their relative consistency (a consistency in treating players as individuals and trying to support their needs, which means different timing and thresholds, which some mistake as inconsistency).


Appreciate the reply. Obviously disagree with many of your assessments, but that's the fun of a message board, engaging with differing perspectives.

What Slaf did was great to see but what will it lead to? That's the whole point is there's no way anyone can say what he's going to end up being when all is said and done.

As for being rushed, I remember KK's rookie year, posters were telling me how wrong I was to suggest that a 17 year old that spent just about all season playing on the wing in Liiga should not be a top 9 center in the NHL at 18 coming off a major knee injury. Funny how at that time, not too many were saying bad things about KK but I kept pointing out Galchenyuk and how after he scored 30 goals with us some fans were getting carried away when he clearly still had issues with skating, defense and terrible development plan.

Slaf was a 1st OA pick so I get why they rushed him and they clearly did as he had a terrible year and that is NOT what you want to see from your 1st OA pick. But to me they seemed to have learned some things as they chose not to rush Reinbacher.

Also I never said anything about putting up #'s in the AHL so not sure where you get that from, it's based off their play, stats suck ass imo.

We'll see what Guhle turns into, but I am not a fan of players going from the CHL to NHL but especially for blueliners. I would 100% have put him in Laval as I think he needs a good bit of work on his offensive skills and adding mass/strength.

I find most overrate Xhekaj, yes it's a cool story but I could care less that he was undrafted, I just look at his game and see he's got a # of holes that should have been worked on in the AHL. I think his brother is the one to start to get excited about.

For the past 20 years the Habs have sucked at drafting and development imo, maybe that has changed but my view is that it's too early to say and they have done a # of things I can't say I agree with. We'll see how it ends up as development is usually a long process, so time will tell what they got right and what they got wrong.

 

[Nico Cauzuki]

I can't wait to see that !!

I hope we are going to know where they have Michael Hage on their list.

Everyone are hype on Demidov (me too), but Michael Hage hype should be there!!

Dont know much about him but looks like a great kid and that whole story about his dad had me in tears

 

[Miller Time]

What Slaf did was great to see but what will it lead to? That's the whole point is there's no way anyone can say what he's going to end up being when all is said and done.

Sure, still doesn't mean there's any valid reason to suggest he was "rushed".

As for being rushed, I remember KK's rookie year, posters were telling me how wrong I was to suggest that a 17 year old that spent just about all season playing on the wing in Liiga should not be a top 9 center in the NHL at 18 coming off a major knee injury. Funny how at that time, not too many were saying bad things about KK but I kept pointing out Galchenyuk and how after he scored 30 goals with us some fans were getting carried away when he clearly still had issues with skating, defense and terrible development plan.

Bottom line, he was able to compete successfully at NHL level.

No player is without "issues". That he didn't get good development, particularly in supporting his emotional & psychological growth, is evident. The problem wasn't what level he was playing at, the problem was the organization in charge of helping him grow as an athlete was terrible at that.

Slaf was a 1st OA pick so I get why they rushed him and they clearly did as he had a terrible year and that is NOT what you want to see from your 1st OA pick. But to me they seemed to have learned some things as they chose not to rush Reinbacher.

They didn't rush him. Repeating that fallacy over and over again doesn't make it any less wrong.

They clearly haven't changed their approach. As described earlier, you're confusing individual pathways with shifting approaches.

Also I never said anything about putting up #'s in the AHL so not sure where you get that from, it's based off their play, stats suck ass imo.

Their performance output at the NHL level is not an indicator of wether or not their development is best served at that level... Unless one thinks that point production is the only metric of successful development.

Slaf was very positive development signs well before he put up points in the NHL...

We'll see what Guhle turns into, but I am not a fan of players going from the CHL to NHL but especially for blueliners. I would 100% have put him in Laval as I think he needs a good bit of work on his offensive skills and adding mass/strength.

Generalizations & averages are not a useful way to assess ideal individual development pathways. What league a player came from is irrelevant, at the individual level, to where they will best develop next.

Guhke going to the AHL would have been the wrong choice. His level of play makes that quite obvious (unless, again, points are what matter most

I find most overrate Xhekaj, yes it's a cool story but I could care less that he was undrafted, I just look at his game and see he's got a # of holes that should have been worked on in the AHL. I think his brother is the one to start to get excited about.

It's weird how in one case, you think where a player came from (CHL) is an important consideration in making these development pathways assessments... But in the next paragraph, you claim you could care less about their past (undrafted)?

Bottom line. Xhekaj is 23, was undrafted, and has played at NHL level defense. That's a positive development output. Not sure how one spins that as a negative. Wether or not his current level is "good enough" or not is a completely separate question to wether or not he has been developing well (which is about how far they have progressed from where they "started" -in this context, started implies joining the Habs organization)

I don't understand this notion that a player can't or doesn't work on their game at the NHL level. Obviously they do. Some organizations are better at keeping a development & growth focus than others... And that's irrespective of wether they are in a rebuild or contending phase. Different sport, but Phil Jackson describes beautifully how even contending rosters are best served by embracing a culture of continuous improvement... Pep Guardiola embraces the same. What I've seen and heard from the Habs under KH/MSL mirrors this approach... As does the commentary from the players both with and after departing the team.

For the past 20 years the Habs have sucked at drafting and development imo, maybe that has changed but my view is that it's too early to say and they have done a # of things I can't say I agree with. We'll see how it ends up as development is usually a long process, so time will tell what they got right and what they got wrong.

I get the ptsd. The Habs have sucked at development the past 20years... Drafting, I think is a bit more debatable. The success the players we've drafted have had, despite some clearly terrible organization development practices, suggests that drafting has actually been pretty solid

I disagree that it's too early to tell if we have a strong organizational approach to drafting and development.

The drafting side of things arguably will take a bit longer (though early indications through 2 drafts -ignoring 2024- are that several, if not most selections have had stronger D1 & D2 outputs than their relative draft spot.

The success of development side I think is more evident. The progression of our U25 players since MSL took over and the players have engaged with the new player development approach, have been almost unanimously positive (which is different than saying that the actual level of said players is "great" or "good enough"... Development is the trajectory, not the height of the current status). And as I alluded to, with athlete development across sports, there are common emotional & psychological indicators that can be observed from the outside that point to best practices. Habs brass & current players show very evident signs of this.

Future is bright

 

[Mrb1p]

I think we've reached the "waiting for the bad contacts to expire" stage where there isn't a lot more than can be done until that happens

False. We have more than ample space and the bad contracts aren't as restrictive as we say they are.

 

[montreal]

Sure, still doesn't mean there's any valid reason to suggest he was "rushed".


Bottom line, he was able to compete successfully at NHL level.

No player is without "issues". That he didn't get good development, particularly in supporting his emotional & psychological growth, is evident. The problem wasn't what level he was playing at, the problem was the organization in charge of helping him grow as an athlete was terrible at that.


They didn't rush him. Repeating that fallacy over and over again doesn't make it any less wrong.

They clearly haven't changed their approach. As described earlier, you're confusing individual pathways with shifting approaches.


Their performance output at the NHL level is not an indicator of wether or not their development is best served at that level... Unless one thinks that point production is the only metric of successful development.

Slaf was very positive development signs well before he put up points in the NHL...


Generalizations & averages are not a useful way to assess ideal individual development pathways. What league a player came from is irrelevant, at the individual level, to where they will best develop next.

Guhke going to the AHL would have been the wrong choice. His level of play makes that quite obvious (unless, again, points are what matter most



It's weird how in one case, you think where a player came from (CHL) is an important consideration in making these development pathways assessments... But in the next paragraph, you claim you could care less about their past (undrafted)?

Bottom line. Xhekaj is 23, was undrafted, and has played at NHL level defense. That's a positive development output. Not sure how one spins that as a negative. Wether or not his current level is "good enough" or not is a completely separate question to wether or not he has been developing well (which is about how far they have progressed from where they "started" -in this context, started implies joining the Habs organization)

I don't understand this notion that a player can't or doesn't work on their game at the NHL level. Obviously they do. Some organizations are better at keeping a development & growth focus than others... And that's irrespective of wether they are in a rebuild or contending phase. Different sport, but Phil Jackson describes beautifully how even contending rosters are best served by embracing a culture of continuous improvement... Pep Guardiola embraces the same. What I've seen and heard from the Habs under KH/MSL mirrors this approach... As does the commentary from the players both with and after departing the team.




I get the ptsd. The Habs have sucked at development the past 20years... Drafting, I think is a bit more debatable. The success the players we've drafted have had, despite some clearly terrible organization development practices, suggests that drafting has actually been pretty solid

I disagree that it's too early to tell if we have a strong organizational approach to drafting and development.

The drafting side of things arguably will take a bit longer (though early indications through 2 drafts -ignoring 2024- are that several, if not most selections have had stronger D1 & D2 outputs than their relative draft spot.

The success of development side I think is more evident. The progression of our U25 players since MSL took over and the players have engaged with the new player development approach, have been almost unanimously positive (which is different than saying that the actual level of said players is "great" or "good enough"... Development is the trajectory, not the height of the current status). And as I alluded to, with athlete development across sports, there are common emotional & psychological indicators that can be observed from the outside that point to best practices. Habs brass & current players show very evident signs of this.

Future is bright

Saying Slaf wasn't rushed doesn't make any less so, yes he turned it around in his 2nd season after they were looking to send him to Laval, that's rushed. He was not ready because you could see it when he was on the ice. It's dangerous to put 18 year olds in the NHL if they aren't ready as it can have major impacts on confidence, or injuries, etc..

Guhle needs a lot of work on his offense, you can do that in AHL, saying him going to the AHL at 20 for a blueliner is crazy, it's one of the very best leagues in the world. Why must posters say such nonsense, like there's no way he could have benefited from starting in the AHL like 80% of all NHLers?

Yes I don't care that Xhekaj wasn't drafted, as who gives a f*** about where you were drafted or not, it doesn't matter. What matters is what they do and he's been a great find but he had no business being in the NHL right away, to me the whole idea of rushing kids to the NHL is stupid and it has burned us badly in the past. I've said they were put in a tough spot last year due to all the injuries so some of them had to be rushed but it's still concerning to me.

I keep saying how impressed I am with the job MSL has done but that doesn't mean you need to rush these kids to the NHL, the future is bright but that also doesn't mean much yet.

 

[schwang26]

This year, shed some contracts, start building your bottom 6 (especially the 4th line) and focus on finishing at least 10th last while continuing to work on development and specialty teams. As well, get Laval into the damn playoffs as part of the prospects development! If they can manage all of that, I’ll be happy. I don’t see the top 6 spot getting filled from the outside anymore. That ship may have sailed this year.

 

[Spearmint Rhino]

Gave him a B

Has made some great moves and we’ve stockpiled picks and prospects but it’s a big jump from being bottom 5 to being a contender for the Cup and that’s where we need to get to for it to be a successful rebuild.

Only real complaint I’d have is lack of team toughness/physicality that needs to get addressed or we will be the Leafs come playoff time.

 

[Miller Time]

Saying Slaf wasn't rushed doesn't make any less so, yes he turned it around in his 2nd season after they were looking to send him to Laval, that's rushed. He was not ready because you could see it when he was on the ice. It's dangerous to put 18 year olds in the NHL if they aren't ready as it can have major impacts on confidence, or injuries, etc..

"Turned it around". Or, developed according to a very clearly articulated and executed plan lol

They weren't "looking to send him to Laval", they had a very clear and well explained intent to continuously evaluate and assess how he was progressing, and move him up or down based on that ongoing evaluation. Had he not got injured, there's a good chance he may have gone down for a stint. That's not a matter of "rushed", that's called an individual development plan. His confidence was a crucial part of their assessment and, turns out, they were spot on. Clear evidence of a strong development program, if one is assessing the plan on its own merit vs biased from past frustrations.

That's what effective development looks like. I get that we haven't seen it here previously, it'll probably take a while to start recognizing it for some.

Guhle needs a lot of work on his offense, you can do that in AHL, saying him going to the AHL at 20 for a blueliner is crazy, it's one of the very best leagues in the world. Why must posters say such nonsense, like there's no way he could have benefited from starting in the AHL like 80% of all NHLers?

So it is about points lol.

His offense is progressing just fine where he is. Ignoring roster, deployment & utilization context in assessing performance makes for poor evaluation. Ignore the points and it might be more easy to recognize how well he is playing in all phases of the game, at 22. He will continue to improve, being in the AHL would be of no value to him as an athlete and quite likely more detrimental.

The generalizations & attempt to ground takes about individual athletes in those generalizations is nonsense indeed. I can agree there

Yes I don't care that Xhekaj wasn't drafted, as who gives a f*** about where you were drafted or not, it doesn't matter. What matters is what they do and he's been a great find but he had no business being in the NHL right away, to me the whole idea of rushing kids to the NHL is stupid and it has burned us badly in the past. I've said they were put in a tough spot last year due to all the injuries so some of them had to be rushed but it's still concerning to me.

If one is assessing the development or progression of a 23 year, then presumably they would consider where the player started... He went undrafted because no NHL team felt he was worth investing a draft pick on. Only 6 dmen from his draft year have played more at the NHL level than him, 5 were first rounders.

It's a terrible argument to suggest he hasnt developed very well since he's been with the club. Arguing that he's been rushed because you think his current level isn't to your liking is an opinion, just not a very strong one.

living in the past doesn't make for good assessments.

I keep saying how impressed I am with the job MSL has done but that doesn't mean you need to rush these kids to the NHL, the future is bright but that also doesn't mean much yet.

Great, then leave the past behind, stop saying they were rushed (since there is no reason to do so), and instead enjoy this new experience of getting to watch an organization excelling at player development in real time!

Problem solved

 

[montreal]

"Turned it around". Or, developed according to a very clearly articulated and executed plan lol

They weren't "looking to send him to Laval", they had a very clear and well explained intent to continuously evaluate and assess how he was progressing, and move him up or down based on that ongoing evaluation. Had he not got injured, there's a good chance he may have gone down for a stint. That's not a matter of "rushed", that's called an individual development plan. His confidence was a crucial part of their assessment and, turns out, they were spot on. Clear evidence of a strong development program, if one is assessing the plan on its own merit vs biased from past frustrations.

That's what effective development looks like. I get that we haven't seen it here previously, it'll probably take a while to start recognizing it for some.



So it is about points lol.

His offense is progressing just fine where he is. Ignoring roster, deployment & utilization context in assessing performance makes for poor evaluation. Ignore the points and it might be more easy to recognize how well he is playing in all phases of the game, at 22. He will continue to improve, being in the AHL would be of no value to him as an athlete and quite likely more detrimental.

The generalizations & attempt to ground takes about individual athletes in those generalizations is nonsense indeed. I can agree there




If one is assessing the development or progression of a 23 year, then presumably they would consider where the player started... He went undrafted because no NHL team felt he was worth investing a draft pick on. Only 6 dmen from his draft year have played more at the NHL level than him, 5 were first rounders.

It's a terrible argument to suggest he hasnt developed very well since he's been with the club. Arguing that he's been rushed because you think his current level isn't to your liking is an opinion, just not a very strong one.

living in the past doesn't make for good assessments.



Great, then leave the past behind, stop saying they were rushed (since there is no reason to do so), and instead enjoy this new experience of getting to watch an organization excelling at player development in real time!

Problem solved

no he turned it around or else the Habs GM wouldn't have been looking to send him to Laval this year. You can make a mistake in rushing a kid to the NHL but it still work out as it's really more of gamble that imo isn't needed. And they were looking to send him to Laval as Hughes said it himself at the time.


It's not about points, stats are overrated, you watch with your eyes and they tell the tale over time.


Xhekaj was rushed no question, where anyone gets drafted means nothing in the end. He makes too many mistakes in his own end and needs to stay out of the box. I never said he hasn't developed well, I said he was rushed and still has several issues that need to be fixed. That should be done in the AHL.


They were rushed no matter what you want to say and I won't be told what to do by anyone. Yes the Habs have sucked at drafting and development, they have developed almost no high end talent in the past 20 years that they drafted. Many of the same scouts, Lapointe, Rockstrom were all here under the MB years so to try and just dismiss someone's opinion as ptsd is just a smug silly response as it's not like Hughes is going to be mistake free and everyone should be open to opinions that they don't like.

Since 2015 to the '22 draft, we would have had every single 1st pick of the draft in the NHL at 18 outside of Poehling, if Caufield gave more then a half assed effort defensively in his Freshman year and Mailloux of course with his legal issues and injuries causing him to miss almost 2 full years of development. I am not a fan of that approach and I think it will backfire but time will tell one way or the other.

 

[Stive Morgan]

I'd rank it a B, but A considering the mess they inherited.

It's nice not having management making "WTF?!" moves on a yearly basis.

Two biggest needs imo are high-end star power (god willing Slaf and/or Demidov is that guy, Slaf is definitely on track) and I think our D (in the NA pros at least) is overrated (not a fan of Harris or Barron, Struble looks good but nothing special. It's basically just Guhle for me.) I have no opinion on Reinbacher or Mailloux because I havent seen them play enough, but based on stat-watching and posts I've read, they're both upper-tier. But like I said, too early to tell for me.

 

[McGuires Corndog]

You did it! You got my point. That's it, it's that easy. I'm just saying there's no way anyone can know if we have enough high end talent as there's no way anyone on this board can say that guys like Hutson, Roy, Reinbacher, Fowler, etc.. are going to b whatever in the NHL.

If others think we have enough high end talent then great, and we clearly might have but I would be surprised to very surprised if so.

This has nothing to do with where I think we are going, I fully support Hughes, Gorton and MSL and have repeatedly said I feel that they are among our best assets in the organization. This is just saying that you can think you know what we have in our prospects but that doesn't mean much when times goes by and the warts start to show up more. I jus think the Habs have a long ways to go and that could change in a hurry as we are going to get a much clearer picture after next season or two now that just about all our top prospects are at the NHL/AHL level.

For what it’s worth, I think we need atleast one more high-level draft in order to really complete the rebuild properly. I don’t think we’ll be bottom-5 bad again, but with the shear amount of assets and maybe some lottery luck we should be able to find a way to move up in some capacity if we want to. Even a 5-10 pick next year might be enough to solidify the rebuild providing we choose the player wisely.

We’re well on track and I think the management team had a pretty good summer overall, but the work is far from over. Now we need our recent selections to develop and hit (Slaf, Demidov, Hutson, Reinbacher, Mailloux and Fowler). If cup aspirations are the goal, we cannot afford many if any misses here.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

no he turned it around or else the Habs GM wouldn't have been looking to send him to Laval this year. You can make a mistake in rushing a kid to the NHL but it still work out as it's really more of gamble that imo isn't needed. And they were looking to send him to Laval as Hughes said it himself at the time.


It's not about points, stats are overrated, you watch with your eyes and they tell the tale over time.


Xhekaj was rushed no question, where anyone gets drafted means nothing in the end. He makes too many mistakes in his own end and needs to stay out of the box. I never said he hasn't developed well, I said he was rushed and still has several issues that need to be fixed. That should be done in the AHL.


They were rushed no matter what you want to say and I won't be told what to do by anyone. Yes the Habs have sucked at drafting and development, they have developed almost no high end talent in the past 20 years that they drafted. Many of the same scouts, Lapointe, Rockstrom were all here under the MB years so to try and just dismiss someone's opinion as ptsd is just a smug silly response as it's not like Hughes is going to be mistake free and everyone should be open to opinions that they don't like.

Since 2015 to the '22 draft, we would have had every single 1st pick of the draft in the NHL at 18 outside of Poehling, if Caufield gave more then a half assed effort defensively in his Freshman year and Mailloux of course with his legal issues and injuries causing him to miss almost 2 full years of development. I am not a fan of that approach and I think it will backfire but time will tell one way or the other.

NOBODY WAS RUSHED. Slaf is doing well, Xhekaj is to be determined. Every player is different.

 

[montreal]

NOBODY WAS RUSHED. Slaf is doing well, Xhekaj is to be determined. Every player is different.

Did Slaf look bad in the NHL at 18, then he was rushed. Hughes said they were planning on sending him down until MSL stepped in and said he wanted him to stick around and then not much after that he took off. That's 100% rushed, he wasn't reaady, the GM saw he wasn't ready in his rookie year and at the start of the season.

Just because he turned it around doesn't mean he wasn't rushed or that it's some great development plan.

I like Xhekaj a lot and I admit I don't really know the full story behind all the talk about MSL maybe not being a fan but I can see why as he got sent down and while he really helped Mailloux and the team get back on track, his defense showed a number of mistakes and if he was indeed told to cut down on the pims, he did not get the message which is usually not a good sign.

That said with prospects everything is about progress or a lack of so we just need for them to keep getting better.

 

[ReHabs]

Did Slaf look bad in the NHL at 18, then he was rushed. Hughes said they were planning on sending him down until MSL stepped in and said he wanted him to stick around and then not much after that he took off. That's 100% rushed, he wasn't reaady, the GM saw he wasn't ready in his rookie year and at the start of the season.

Just because he turned it around doesn't mean he wasn't rushed or that it's some great development plan.

I’m about done revisiting the past re: Slaf but what I never understood was how people would conflate the argument you lay out:

1. It could be that he was on a “development plan”
2. But whatever he was on, he did not play well and he got a major injury in his rookie year

Both things can be true but objective fact 2 is true. He didn’t play well in his rookie season and he had a serious injury. Whether the team felt the growing pains were part of his development and therefore necessary — I can buy that. But the whole “emperor’s new clothes” routine where Slaf’s rookie year is revised as “good”… no way. He simply wasn’t an NHLer when he was played in the NHL.

In the very near future we will see if this new systemic approach to developing talents will actually change the paradigm. I think teams with sufficient depth or no fear of failing (tanking) can afford to “rush” prospects, so maybe it’s a way to catalyze a player’s development and therefore legitimate.

 

[Miller Time]

no he turned it around or else the Habs GM wouldn't have been looking to send him to Laval this year. You can make a mistake in rushing a kid to the NHL but it still work out as it's really more of gamble that imo isn't needed. And they were looking to send him to Laval as Hughes said it himself at the time.

Nope. They explained quite the opposite. That you didn't understand the approach doesn't mean they made a mistake...

Progression isn't linear, a strong development program recognizes that and understands that you have to be ready to pivot... Exactly as they both described and have carried out (with xhekaj, Barron, and will continue to do unless they change their approach fundamentally, which I doubt will happen).

It's not about points, stats are overrated, you watch with your eyes and they tell the tale over time.

Not all eyes make the same sense of the sensory input.

Before claiming that the world is blurry, trying on a pair of glasses might be a better option.

Xhekaj was rushed no question, where anyone gets drafted means nothing in the end. He makes too many mistakes in his own end and needs to stay out of the box. I never said he hasn't developed well, I said he was rushed and still has several issues that need to be fixed. That should be done in the AHL.

You keep missing the point. Not being drafted at all means not one NHL team thought he had NHL potential greater than the 200+ kids his age they assessed as a better bet.

Now, he's progressed further in his NHL career than all but 6.

That means progressed further. Pretty straightforward & simple. Not sure why you don't understand this.

If that's the result of being "rushed", I guess every teen with NHL ambitions should be "rushed"

Or, the "rushed" take is a bad take.

The "rushed" argument remains weak and baseless when talking about the Habs approach to player development since Nov 2021.

They were rushed no matter what you want to say and I won't be told what to do by anyone.

ok dude. Chill out, no one is telling you what to do. If you don't want your take to be questioned or critiqued, maybe keep it to yourself

Many of the same scouts, Lapointe, Rockstrom were all here under the MB years so to try and just dismiss someone's opinion as ptsd is just a smug silly response as it's not like Hughes is going to be mistake free and everyone should be open to opinions that they don't like.

No one said it was mistake free. Resorting to weak strawmen just highlights that the opinion is... weak.

You keep bringing up an irrelevant past. The PTSD analogy is perhaps in bad taste, my bad.

Your take lacks coherence and is not grounded in anything relevant to the available information about the present situation. Better?

Since 2015 to the '22 draft, we would have had every single 1st pick of the draft in the NHL at 18 outside of Poehling, if Caufield gave more then a half assed effort defensively in his Freshman year and Mailloux of course with his legal issues and injuries causing him to miss almost 2 full years of development. I am not a fan of that approach and I think it will backfire but time will tell one way or the other.

Reminder, the organization approach we are discussing started in November 2021.

Not sure why you are confusing this

Go on staying attached to this "rushed" take. If you have anything grounded on more than your empty "eye test", I'm all ears, otherwise, not interested in discussing further.

 

[Beer and Chips]

If the team is good there isn't the need start young players to distract the fans. On a good team Guhle isn't put on 1st pair ever.