The state of the Habs Rebuild - The Next step

[teamfirst]

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The Rebuilding Phase…….What Rubbish!​

you are saying by adopting this attitude is, “We are victims of the Draft system and there is nothing we can do to win a title other than wait our turn.”

This is totally at odds with the core principles of success: being different, being unique, taking what’s happening – taking what everyone else is doing – and doing it differently, smarter and better.

“We’re in a rebuilding phase” is saying, “Hey, we have no idea how to create and sustain a winning culture other than waiting for our turn to be blessed by the Draft system”.

It’s saying, “We have no idea what high performance is all about. But if you wait ten years and give us the top five Draft picks we will show something”.

It’s saying, “Our coaching, our sports science, our medical team, our analysis staff, our management have no idea how to create a winning team unless we have been given great Draft selections”.

Anyone who uses the term “We’re in a rebuilding phase” should refuse to accept a salary from their Club or Team.

 

[GrandmaCookie]

Hughes and Gorton have done such a bad job that we have no choice but to embrace the tank for another 3 seasons.

Hopefully we suck for another couple seasons and fire these clowns and bring in a real GM in time for us to capitalize on the influx of picks/prospects.

A real GM with all of these assets could put a team together quickly

You mean like Rangers did with Gorton?

During his tenure as GM from July 1, 2015 – May of 2021 — Gorton signed Artemi Panarin, traded for Mika Zibanejad, Ryan Lindgren, Adam Fox and Jacob Trouba, and drafted Alexis Lafreniere, Filip Chytil, Brandon Schneider and Kaapo Kakko.

In before someone come here and dissect and disregard every move he made because muh New York

I would say he played a good part in building the Rangers of today. Only major pieces of the Rangers today that Gorton isn't responsible for is Trocheck, Kreider (Rangers since 09) and Shesterkin (picked just before he got there).

If HuGo can leaves us with the same assets that Gorton left the Rangers with, I will say we are in good hand and he will definitely have made a good job.

 

[Mrb1p]

You mean like Rangers did with Gorton?

During his tenure as GM from July 1, 2015 – May of 2021 — Gorton signed Artemi Panarin, traded for Mika Zibanejad, Ryan Lindgren, Adam Fox and Jacob Trouba, and drafted Alexis Lafreniere, Filip Chytil, Brandon Schneider and Kaapo Kakko.

I would say he played a good part in building the Rangers of today. Only major pieces of the Rangers today that Gorton isn't responsible for is Trocheck, Kreider (Rangers since 09) and Shesterkin (picked just before he got there).

If HuGo can leaves us with the same assets that Gorton left the Rangers with, I will say we are in good hand and he will definitely have made a good job.

Gorton got fired because he lucked out on Panarin and Fox and the rest of his decisions have been terrible. Countless 1st round busts, terrible trades and signings, PO failures, etc.

Who's the Panarin MVP level forward is he going to get for free? Who is the Norris level D he's going to get for free?

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

You mean like Rangers did with Gorton?

During his tenure as GM from July 1, 2015 – May of 2021 — Gorton signed Artemi Panarin, traded for Mika Zibanejad, Ryan Lindgren, Adam Fox and Jacob Trouba, and drafted Alexis Lafreniere, Filip Chytil, Brandon Schneider and Kaapo Kakko.

In before someone come here and dissect and disregard every move he made because muh New York

I would say he played a good part in building the Rangers of today. Only major pieces of the Rangers today that Gorton isn't responsible for is Trocheck, Kreider (Rangers since 09) and Shesterkin (picked just before he got there).

If HuGo can leaves us with the same assets that Gorton left the Rangers with, I will say we are in good hand and he will definitely have made a good job.

Look at how Gorton squandered his top-10 picks trying to be the smartest man in the room.

He was blessed with the best goalie in the NHL in his prime.

He got Fox and Panarin because they were UFAs who forced their way to New York - do you see any free agents forcing their way to Montréal anytime soon?

Zibanejad was a good trade from him but he looks bad this year.

Gorton was fired because of his commitment to the rebuild when the team was ready to compete. The important depth pieces and secondary scoring were added after Gorton was fired.

 

[GrandmaCookie]

Gorton got fired because he lucked out on Panarin and Fox and the rest of his decisions have been terrible. Countless 1st round busts, terrible trades and signings, PO failures, etc.

Who's the Panarin MVP level forward is he going to get for free? Who is the Norris level D he's going to get for free?

From the situation he is currently in in Montreal, I think the HuGo has been actively trying to make the team better.

HuGo do were able to acquire Patrick Laine, a until recently a close to PPG player in his mid 20 for a cheap price. Not as valuable acquisition as Panarin(a PPG player, not a MVP back then), but a step in the right direction for sure to improve our team pool of elite talent.

We don't know the impact he had on GM decision, but we saw an effort to acquire young talent to accelerate the team building in Dach and Newhook. Draft has been good under his tenure so far. They made a move in the first round to grab a player they liked (Hage). Went with the right pick in Slaf, Huston, Demidov.

I think it will get much more interesting when HuGo aren't strapped with untradeable contract of underperforming vets that much, but so far, I don't see what people expected to do more with the team and assets they started with, besides maybe adding grit to the bottom 6 or stability to the blue line via UFA, but like you said, we aren't the same market as New York in that regard.

 

[GrandmaCookie]

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The Rebuilding Phase…….What Rubbish!​

you are saying by adopting this attitude is, “We are victims of the Draft system and there is nothing we can do to win a title other than wait our turn.”

This is totally at odds with the core principles of success: being different, being unique, taking what’s happening – taking what everyone else is doing – and doing it differently, smarter and better.

“We’re in a rebuilding phase” is saying, “Hey, we have no idea how to create and sustain a winning culture other than waiting for our turn to be blessed by the Draft system”.

It’s saying, “We have no idea what high performance is all about. But if you wait ten years and give us the top five Draft picks we will show something”.

It’s saying, “Our coaching, our sports science, our medical team, our analysis staff, our management have no idea how to create a winning team unless we have been given great Draft selections”.

Anyone who uses the term “We’re in a rebuilding phase” should refuse to accept a salary from their Club or Team.

The NHL is a multi-million dollards industry and for decades, the prefered strategy for the vast majority of deeply struggling team have been some form of rebuild while using the draft to replenish the talent pool of the team.

So you are saying that the vast majority of NHL dirigeant of the past and the now shouldn't accept a salary, and that there is a better approach to improve a bottom of the barrel team possessing a current ineffective core.

That is an opinion for sure. I would be curious to know what is that smarter, better strategy you think of, but I'm sure I will be greeted with a "not my job to figure it out".

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I agree, and this point gets misunderstood. Many key players of the rebuild are already on the team. Suzuki, Caufield, Slafkovsky, Dach, Newhook, Guhle, Struble, and Xhekaj. These aren't rookies. Some improvement is expected. If so, the team should improve incrementally. Nobody's expecting us to win this season. Forget playoffs and 'in the mix'. I'm just talking about moving up slowly, not languishing at the bottom once again.

Of importance, we only added (minus Laine) Hutson this year and he's green as they come. There's no actual increment because management intentionally went with youth on D. That's basically a tanking move disguised with corporate BS peddling of -in-the-mix- to ease the masses.

Sure, a lot depends on future players like Demidov, Reinbacher and Hage, and on rookies like Hutson. But even more depends on the current players.

This is where I disagree. Demidov and Hage might become as much or more impactful than Suzuki and Caufield, and Hutson and Reinbacher double-up their importance over Guhle.

At some point, tanking stops being a strategy and starts becoming a symptom of stagnation.

We're 28 months removed from our first rebuild draft. Stagnation is expected at some point, especially in the middle years of a rebuild, in which we are, where we've a handful of drafts and we're still waiting on key drafted players to arrive and develop. Hage and Demi will be a sizeable chunck of our future top 6, while Hutson and Rainmaker will be the same for our top 4 D. You're all putting the cart before the horses. This midway point should open eyes to what is missing, and IMO, we're still missing a lot. It's a sign we still need to add to our collection of youth, especially if we have a good drafting team, and we do. One more flop should make our prospect pool even more formidable.

The increments will come much more from adding players, but their impact takes time to unravel. Laine and Hutson aren't as impactful as they'll be to start next season.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I agree, and this point gets misunderstood. Many key players of the rebuild are already on the team. Suzuki, Caufield, Slafkovsky, Dach, Newhook, Guhle, Struble, and Xhekaj. These aren't rookies. Some improvement is expected. If so, the team should improve incrementally. Nobody's expecting us to win this season. Forget playoffs and 'in the mix'. I'm just talking about moving up slowly, not languishing at the bottom once again.

Sure, a lot depends on future players like Demidov, Reinbacher and Hage, and on rookies like Hutson. But even more depends on the current players.

At some point, tanking stops being a strategy and starts becoming a symptom of stagnation.

Rebuilds take what they take though. It’s almost never a straight line. We’ve had three straight years of progress. This season is disappointing so far for sure but in the grand scheme of things it’s okay.

Look at the Devils. Would you like to have that team? They were supposed to be awesome last year but it didn’t happen. Does that mean they aren’t on the right track? Of course not.

The team isn’t deliberately trying to tank. We’re trying to be competitive. But it looks like we’re not ready yet. Mailloux will probably be a good NHLer but he got exposed. It’s going to take time.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: the rebuild is over when the team starts to win. And sometimes it takes a while. This is what rebuilding looks like.

 

[teamfirst]

"not my job to figure it out".

Of course, if i had all the answers i would be managing a sports team, the only thing i know for sure is that a rebuild sucks big time, and the worst part being that there is no way to know if your team will be the next Buffalo Sabres

 

[JoelWarlord]

our management have no idea how to create a winning team unless we have been given great Draft selections”.

No, it means there are only two of their draft selections on the team yet and neither is old enough to buy a beer in the US.

In broader terms I feel like so much of this rebuild agita this year just hinges on people arguing "you can't tank forever" or "at some point rebuilding needs to turn into wins or it's damning for the young core", which are things nobody actually disagrees with, but then insinuating those things apply to the 24-25 Canadiens NOW. I just don't see any compelling reason why a team which only includes two 20 y/o players drafted during the current rebuild, a single (25 y/o) core player over 23, and doesn't even have Demidov on the roster yet is somehow on the clock to be competitive very soon to avoid Sabresville. There is no universal schedule of needing to be at X point total within Y years or your rebuild will fail.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Panthers rebuild started in 2012-13 and they didn't consistently make the playoffs until 2019-20.

Colorado rebuild started in 2010-11 and didn't consistently make the playoffs until 2017-2018

You can pick whatever arbitrary starting point of a rebuild that you want, even recent cup winners took nearly 8 seasons to just start making the playoffs consistently.

This checks out with previous builds like Los Angeles, Chicago, Tampa Bay, Washington, the early end of a rebuild cashing in requires being Pittsburgh and getting Crosby and Malkin in drafts.

 

[417]

I'm not trying to rewrite anything. Competing teams don't have 3 2nd rounders in multiple years.

Who are you referring to here?

There's no clear definition of a "rebuild" so you can't really attach a start or end date to it.

But for me, the rebuild begins in 1 scenario; when you draft a superstar. To me that would be Slaf or Demidov, but neither have proven to be one yet.

And the rebuild ends when you have enough talent in your current roster and prospect pool to fill out an entire contender, and we don't have that yet.

So IMO we don't really know where we are yet. We could be in the middle of a rebuild, or just beginning. In either scenario I still just want to pile up high draft picks so I'm not too upset we're having another losing season.

The rebuild really begins when some of the players you drafted start integrating the team you're currently managing.

That's YOUR identity...the rest is inheriting what was previously there.

Before you can rebuild anything, you have to TEAR whatever was there before it. The Habs are still very much tearing down what was previously there.

 

[Mrb1p]

Who are you referring to here?

Referring to the last few years of Bergevin where he clearly accumulated picks even if he never said he was rebuilding.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Who are you referring to here?

He thinks because MB kept failing to compete when he tried and would sell of ancillary assets at deadlines for 2nd round picks means we committed to a hard rebuild earlier than when Hughes and Gorton took over.

Essentially he wants to push the timeline to establish that Hughes and Gorton are bad, because he snuffed them out as bad first, and he can be "right".

But even if the rebuild succeeds he will say he had valid concerns but was in on Hughes and Gorton for the Habs before they were even hired and therefore he was right about them being good.

 

[teamfirst]

No, it means there are only two of their draft selections on the team yet and neither is old enough to buy a beer in the US.

Well Yowell, it was a quote i took from an article i read talking about rebuild in general not our rebuild....wouldn't be able to write that well in english

Jesus, i tought it was obvious

 

[Lshap]

The Rebuilding Phase…….What Rubbish!​

you are saying by adopting this attitude is, “We are victims of the Draft system and there is nothing we can do to win a title other than wait our turn.”

This is totally at odds with the core principles of success: being different, being unique, taking what’s happening – taking what everyone else is doing – and doing it differently, smarter and better.

“We’re in a rebuilding phase” is saying, “Hey, we have no idea how to create and sustain a winning culture other than waiting for our turn to be blessed by the Draft system”.

It’s saying, “We have no idea what high performance is all about. But if you wait ten years and give us the top five Draft picks we will show something”.

It’s saying, “Our coaching, our sports science, our medical team, our analysis staff, our management have no idea how to create a winning team unless we have been given great Draft selections”.

Anyone who uses the term “We’re in a rebuilding phase” should refuse to accept a salary from their Club or Team.

I'm all for coming up with original solutions, but "Rebuilding" is as fundamental to assembling a winning team as "Laying a foundation" is to assembling a skyscraper. Both are necessary first stages of building something. Sports teams aren't 'victims' of the draft anymore than houses are victims of concrete. Draft picks, like concrete, are ingredients.

Are there other ways to build a winner than through the draft? Sure. Vegas did it, but they had no choice and were beneficiaries of a unique alternate draft. Teams can use UFAs, trade deadlines, and trades. But the most efficient, cost-effective way to sign talent is through the draft, especially in the top 10.

Of importance, we only added (minus Laine) Hutson this year and he's green as they come. There's no actual increment because management intentionally went with youth on D. That's basically a tanking move disguised with corporate BS peddling of -in-the-mix- to ease the masses.

This is where I disagree. Demidov and Hage might become as much or more impactful than Suzuki and Caufield, and Hutson and Reinbacher double-up their importance over Guhle.

We're 28 months removed from our first rebuild draft. Stagnation is expected at some point, especially in the middle years of a rebuild, in which we are, where we've a handful of drafts and we're still waiting on key drafted players to arrive and develop. Hage and Demi will be a sizeable chunck of our future top 6, while Hutson and Rainmaker will be the same for our top 4 D. You're all putting the cart before the horses. This midway point should open eyes to what is missing, and IMO, we're still missing a lot. It's a sign we still need to add to our collection of youth, especially if we have a good drafting team, and we do. One more flop should make our prospect pool even more formidable.

The increments will come much more from adding players, but their impact takes time to unravel. Laine and Hutson aren't as impactful as they'll be to start next season.

That's my big worry – aside from Demidov, I don't believe the best is yet to come. I think most of the best is already on the team. Of course, I realize 'the best' includes rookies and young players who need time to develop. But development happens in increments. I want to see an increment, dammit!

We're expecting Demidov, Hage, Reinbacher and a 2025 pick to swoop in and transform a bottom-feeder into a winner. I'm saying the transformation starts with the bottom-feeder taking its first steps on its own.

 

[JoelWarlord]

Well Yowell, it was a quote i took from an article i read talking about rebuild in general not our rebuild....wouldn't be able to write that well in english

Jesus, i tought it was obvious

I get that, I just don't think the thesis applies to the Canadiens. This is just what happens in a cap system with heavy team control, good core players are not readily available and we lost all of ours in 2021 with nothing to show for them. Right now the reason we're bad is that we have Dvorak in the Danault role, washed-up Gallagher instead of 30-goal Gallagher, Savard in the Weber role, and Montembeault in the Price role, and because we had no cap space until this past summer (which we spent about as efficiently as possible on Laine but we know what happened there). Replacing those guys internally is just going to take time when we have Suzuki at age 25 and then every other core player/top prospect is 23 or younger.

 

[Guy Larose]

He thinks because MB kept failing to compete when he tried and would sell of ancillary assets at deadlines for 2nd round picks means we committed to a hard rebuild earlier than when Hughes and Gorton took over.

Essentially he wants to push the timeline to establish that Hughes and Gorton are bad, because he snuffed them out as bad first, and he can be "right".

But even if the rebuild succeeds he will say he had valid concerns but was in on Hughes and Gorton for the Habs before they were even hired and therefore he was right about them being good.

What's bad are his takes, always.

 

[Non Player Canadiens]

Who is the Norris level D he's going to get for free?

ROTY Lane Hutson at 62nd overall?

 

[nhlfan9191]

I get that, I just don't think the thesis applies to the Canadiens. This is just what happens in a cap system with heavy team control, good core players are not readily available and we lost all of ours in 2021 with nothing to show for them. Right now the reason we're bad is that we have Dvorak in the Danault role, washed-up Gallagher instead of 30-goal Gallagher, Savard in the Weber role, and Montembeault in the Price role, and because we had no cap space until this past summer (which we spent about as efficiently as possible on Laine but we know what happened there). Replacing those guys internally is just going to take time when we have Suzuki at age 25 and then every other core player/top prospect is 23 or younger.

This is why we should’ve started rebuilding during 2017/2018. We could’ve sold Price, Weber, Petry, Gallagher, etc while they were still worth something and sped up the process back then and instead got nothing for them. Trading a disgruntled Pacioretty was Bergevin’s only rebuild type move and he returned Suzuki. Hughes had guys like Toffoli and Lehkonen which were good but not great trade assets. He wasn’t left with much of anything to get important future core pieces. I’m trying my best to be patient with them for that reason. Doesn’t mean there isn’t things they could be doing better tho.

 

[junyab]

The only Bergevin trades that appear to be rebuild trades at first glance were Patches, Pleks and Shaw. For Patches, he was a unique situation and not a rebuild trade. Pleks was traded at the deadline because his contract was ending. Shaw looks to be a rebuild trade but there isn't anything else around it which gives a similar rebuild indication.

 

[417]

Referring to the last few years of Bergevin where he clearly accumulated picks even if he never said he was rebuilding.

I mean, you don't necessarily have to admit to the public you're in a rebuild to accumulate picks.

The Habs stunk, so MB acquired a couple of additional picks.

Still not quite sure what that has to do with HuGO. They didn't acquire those picks.

He thinks because MB kept failing to compete when he tried and would sell of ancillary assets at deadlines for 2nd round picks means we committed to a hard rebuild earlier than when Hughes and Gorton took over.

Essentially he wants to push the timeline to establish that Hughes and Gorton are bad, because he snuffed them out as bad first, and he can be "right".

But even if the rebuild succeeds he will say he had valid concerns but was in on Hughes and Gorton for the Habs before they were even hired and therefore he was right about them being good.

 

[417]

The only Bergevin trades that appear to be rebuild trades at first glance were Patches, Pleks and Shaw. For Patches, he was a unique situation and not a rebuild trade. Pleks was traded at the deadline because his contract was ending. Shaw looks to be a rebuild trade but there isn't anything else around it which gives a similar rebuild indication.

You're seeing right now why no GM has ever really truly attempted to rebuild in his market before HuGO.

The fans/media can't handle it.

But I have confidence that HuGO, unlike previous GM, are well aware of their timeline and where they're at and they're not going to let some over zealous media members and emotional fans dictate what the direction of this team should be.

They're right where they're supposed to be at, right where almost everyone thought they'd be. Just because the same people who encouraged them to lose, suddenly have had enough and realize how long it actually takes, shouldn't change that.

They have to ignore the noise, measure the progress more towards the latter part of this season. That's when you'll know if you're heading in the right direction or if you need a course correction.

 

[Lshap]

Rebuilds take what they take though. It’s almost never a straight line. We’ve had three straight years of progress. This season is disappointing so far for sure but in the grand scheme of things it’s okay.

Look at the Devils. Would you like to have that team? They were supposed to be awesome last year but it didn’t happen. Does that mean they aren’t on the right track? Of course not.

The team isn’t deliberately trying to tank. We’re trying to be competitive. But it looks like we’re not ready yet. Mailloux will probably be a good NHLer but he got exposed. It’s going to take time.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: the rebuild is over when the team starts to win. And sometimes it takes a while. This is what rebuilding looks like.

I'm cool with that. My expectations aren't high, but they're not zero, either. Some struggling is normal, but some progress is equally normal. Like New Jersey – they can call last season an off-year because they showed great potential the season before. I'm not expecting a huge surge like NJ, but we should see a hint of potential from at least some of our guys we consider to be our future core. Between now and April I'd like the D to settle down somewhat. I'd like Dach to look closer to where he was pre-injury. I'd like to see less panic. I want my increment.

 

[JoelWarlord]

Referring to the last few years of Bergevin where he clearly accumulated picks even if he never said he was rebuilding.

How about the last few years of Bergevin where he spent picks and then let Price, Weber, Danault, and Tatar walk, extended Gallagher instead of trading him, didn't trade Petry, and lost Kotkaniemi before trading the OS picks for Dvorak and signing Savard/Hoffman/Armia? You make this point a lot and I just don't understand the connection. Even if we for some reason accept that we've been "rebuilding" since 2015-2016 it doesn't change anything for today because we are still missing the ACTUAL PLAYERS. Drafting Kotkaniemi, Ylonen, Romanov, and Harris in 2018 did not put us in a position to be competitive today. Drafting Sergachev in 2016 does not help us today at all.

I'm not trying to get into the weeds on what we should have done back then because I can't honestly say with hindsight we "should" have blown that team up instead of having the 2021 playoff run. I also don't care to debate if we were rebuilding or not back then because it doesn't really matter. A few spare 2nds doesn't mean anything today compared to losing your entire veteran core and having the last remaining value from the 2005 and 2007 drafts evaporate after largely whiffing in the draft from 2008-2017. For example, Toronto had JVR/Bozak/Gardiner/Kadri as supporting vets when they took their big step, we have Matheson who compares to Gardiner and that's about it.

Suzuki, Caufield, and Guhle are great pieces and of course Bergevin was good at collecting extra picks around the margins and we were able to turn some of those pieces into Dach/Laine which helps. That's still not nearly enough to make up for losing two hall of famers plus our other core vets from 2021 with no trade return and then immediately filling up the cap sheet with Hoffman, Savard, Armia, and Dvorak on top of Gallagher and Drouin leaving us no cap space to take advantage of the flat cap era deals AND unable to retain our own veterans even if we wanted to.

This is why we should’ve started rebuilding during 2017/2018. We could’ve sold Price, Weber, Petry, Gallagher, etc while they were still worth something and sped up the process back then and instead got nothing for them. Trading a disgruntled Pacioretty was Bergevin’s only rebuild type move and he returned Suzuki. Hughes had guys like Toffoli and Lehkonen which were good but not great trade assets. He wasn’t left with much of anything to get important future core pieces. I’m trying my best to be patient with them for that reason.

Yeah like I said above I don't think I can get to the point where I can say with hindsight that I'd have sacrificed 2021 to sell those guys, but it's the most direct reason we're still in this rebuilding phase right now.