The state of the Habs Rebuild - The Next step

[HabsCode]

The official start of the rebuild would make for sure an interesting poll on the Habs board .

 

[ReHabs]

There is none, hence why I added Dach.

Heineman was acquired in the Toffoli deal, mentioned him also.

The Chiarot trade brought up a 1st round pick that brought in Alex Newhook (mentioned him also) and a 4th round pick (Cedric Guindon) who I also mentioned as one of the 30 players drafted by Hughes.

Nothing specious about it other than perhaps you misunderstanding of it.

Acquiring those picks is the first step of the process undertaken when those picks become prospects/players. It's part of the same continuum that start with the strategic decision to change roster make-up.

I'd love a board-wide consensus: Rebuild started with the hiring of Gorton and Hughes. Call it down the middle.... Jan 1st 2022

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

That's normal...it can't be strictly defined. You're entitled to look at it your way, just as I am mine.

If you want to attribute Christian Dvorak to Kent Hughes rebuild plan, you're again entitled.

All good, this is a message board, the whole purpose to is have discussions, not necessarily agree with everything we all say.

Why would I do that when I clearly said it started with the Toffoli trade - which you disagreed with

 

[WeThreeKings]

Acquiring those picks is the first step of the process undertaken when those picks become prospects/players. It's part of the same continuum that start with the strategic decision to change roster make-up.

I'd love a board-wide consensus: Rebuild started with the hiring of Gorton and Hughes. Call it down the middle.... Jan 1st 2022

Rebuild started at that moment because it was at that point they had a rebuild mandate and executed every move off of that vision.

Bergevin didn't rebuild when he drafted Kotkaniemi 3rd overall. That was a consequence of his shitty team building.

Coming out of a summer where they traded Kotkaniemi and a 2nd for Dvorak. Extended Armia. Signed Savard is not a rebuild summer.

 

[ReHabs]

Rebuild started at that moment because it was at that point they had a rebuild mandate and executed every move off of that vision.

Bergevin didn't rebuild when he drafted Kotkaniemi 3rd overall. That was a consequence of his shitty team building.

Coming out of a summer where they traded Kotkaniemi and a 2nd for Dvorak. Extended Armia. Signed Savard is not a rebuild summer.

Yup. Preaching to the choir. Only one voice insists otherwise and I don’t think it should be allowed to distract an otherwise interesting discussion.

I like January 2022 because it is before the TDL and the draft. So far Hughes has helmed three trade deadlines and three off-seasons.

The rebuild is definitely not over but I don’t see any evidence they planned to tank this year. Do you think planned tanking is over?

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

You mean like Rangers did with Gorton?

During his tenure as GM from July 1, 2015 – May of 2021 — Gorton signed Artemi Panarin, traded for Mika Zibanejad, Ryan Lindgren, Adam Fox and Jacob Trouba, and drafted Alexis Lafreniere, Filip Chytil, Brandon Schneider and Kaapo Kakko.

In before someone come here and dissect and disregard every move he made because muh New York

I would say he played a good part in building the Rangers of today. Only major pieces of the Rangers today that Gorton isn't responsible for is Trocheck, Kreider (Rangers since 09) and Shesterkin (picked just before he got there).

If HuGo can leaves us with the same assets that Gorton left the Rangers with, I will say we are in good hand and he will definitely have made a good job.

No matter what you say , being a GM with the Rangers is easy mode .

 

[WeThreeKings]

Yup. Preaching to the choir. Only one voice insists otherwise and I don’t think it should be allowed to distract an otherwise interesting discussion.

I like January 2022 because it is before the TDL and the draft. So far Hughes has helmed three trade deadlines and three off-seasons.

The rebuild is definitely not over but I don’t see any evidence they planned to tank this year. Do you think planned tanking is over?

Planned tanking is over, they're trying to move forward in the build but I don't think they're gonna hate having another top 10 pick to make this year. I just don't think they want the losses they've been having. Losing because you are out gunned is different than losing because the execution isn't there.

But in the mix just meant not being clear sellers. I think they knew they were gonna be picking around the top 10 just closer to 10 than 5.

 

[SOLR]

More cowbell.

Next step in the rebuild.

Yeah, started with Hugo.

 

[417]

Acquiring those picks is the first step of the process undertaken when those picks become prospects/players. It's part of the same continuum that start with the strategic decision to change roster make-up.

Acquiring those picks is one part...they did that.

Those picks actually playing on the roster and contributing is how you evaluate it.

So far, only Heineman, Newhook, Dach and Barron (forgot him) were players who were acquired using draft picks that have played on the roster. Anyone else I may be forgetting is an honest mistake, doing a few things at the same time right now.

Only Slafkovsky (130 games), Lane Hutson (14 games) and Owen Beck (1) have played NHL games from the players drafted under Kent Hughes and Jeff Gorton.

I'd love a board-wide consensus: Rebuild started with the hiring of Gorton and Hughes. Call it down the middle.... Jan 1st 2022

You'll never get a board-wide consensus because there are agendas.

But at the very earliest, I would agree January 2022 would be the start point, when Hughes came on board.

I just happen to think the TRUE inflection point of his rebuild started at the 2022 NHL Entry Draft. That's when he was able to put HIS identity on what he wants to see out of the team moving forward.

 

[417]

Why would I do that when I clearly said it started with the Toffoli trade - which you disagreed with

I didn't disagree with it because I CLEARLY added Emil Heineman as part of Hughes moves, the other part of that trade is the 2024 1st round pick which turned into Filip Mesar and the 2024 5th round pick which I believe turned into Tyler Thorpe.

Once again, i'll repeat, most of what Hughes has done as part of his rebuild...isn't on the Montreal Canadiens 2024-25 roster yet.

So it's hard to for me, if i'm being objective, to rate his job of rebuilding...we've yet to see the fruits of that labour.

 

[nhlfan9191]

I think I understand @417 point. He means the rebuild starts when there is actual building taking place (aka drafting Slaf).

Why would you not put the ticker on a rebuild when a President/GM/coach are put in place? They had months to access and prepare for the 21/22 TDL where they would choose who to sell to tank while accumulating assets they wanted for the draft as well having months to prepare for the draft as well. Why would the rebuild start in the summer after they made moves to ensure a lottery pick. Doesn’t make any sense for people making that argument. The rebuild started when the team tanked and they cleaned house. And that happened at the end of 21, beginning of 22. The argument against that is stupid. HuGo and St. Louis were not hired in the off-season of 2022.

 

[HabsCode]

Why would you not put the ticker on a rebuild when a President/GM/coach are put in place? They had months to access and prepare for the 21/22 TDL where they would choose to sell to tank while accumulating assets for the draft as well having months to prepare for the draft as well. Why would the rebuild start in the summer after they made moves to ensure a lottery pick. Doesn’t make any sense for people making that argument. The rebuild started when the team ranked and the former regime was fired.

Can't say I disagree. Just trying to make sense of it all.

My initial point was that I think the majority of this board would point at the hiring of HuGo as the starting point of the rebuild, and the reference we should base our evaluation of the current rebuild on.

Personally I think it started when they brought all the media Bell Center ice to announce Kent hiring, you could understand at that point that a change in paradigm was taking place.

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

I didn't disagree with it because I CLEARLY added Emil Heineman as part of Hughes moves, the other part of that trade is the 2024 1st round pick which turned into Filip Mesar and the 2024 5th round pick which I believe turned into Tyler Thorpe.

Once again, i'll repeat, most of what Hughes has done as part of his rebuild...isn't on the Montreal Canadiens 2024-25 roster yet.

So it's hard to for me, if i'm being objective, to rate his job of rebuilding...we've yet to see the fruits of that labour.

Cmon bruv - this is how it started

The rebuild officially started the moment we traded Toffoli away - that was the first domino and led to a busy trade deadline where we dumped Lehkonen, Chiarot, and Kulak.

No it didn't...at least not IMO.

Before you rebuild anything, it implies something already existed that you have to tear down.

That was the tear down (which frankly, continues to this day and this trade deadline when he gets rid of Armia, Dvorak and perhaps Savard).

Their rebuild started that summer when they drafted Slafkovsky.

Dumping is not rebuilding since you're stripping away. You rebuild by adding, not stripping.

 

[WeThreeKings]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1853898108603916582

Generational talent to the AHL

 

[junyab]

Bergevin didn't start shit, and completed even less. He only made moves to get in front of a camera where Molson could give him hungry eyes.

 

[417]

Cmon bruv - this is how it started

Bruv lol I've made subsequent posts after that to show that the return from the Toffoli trade is JUST starting to be applied to the current NHL roster.

So OK if you want to go back to the Toffoli trade that's fine, but you can only judge that when what you got back in return can be evaluated.

Mesar (AHL)
Heineman (Habs)
Thorpe (WHL)

So a bit of a misstep on my initial post to you! My bad for that, but we’re both essentially saying the same things.

https://x.com/i/web/status/1853898108603916582

Generational talent to the AHL

This the kid everyone was raving about how his development was going amazing cause they cooked him in the AHL?

Interesting…

 

[overlords]

I didn't disagree with it because I CLEARLY added Emil Heineman as part of Hughes moves, the other part of that trade is the 2024 1st round pick which turned into Filip Mesar and the 2024 5th round pick which I believe turned into Tyler Thorpe.

'twas the 2023 5th, Volokhin.

 

[habbubba]

Don't know about everyone else but I sure was all atingle about another stellar season.

Check that, not stellar, meant cellar. Look at that, Montreal's ineptness has spilled over to the fan base.lol

 

[teamfirst]

So, how many years left before we can start evaluating our GM rebuild......safest job in the all world

 

[WeThreeKings]

And you took over for McCagg as the appeal to authority homer who thinks he's smarter than everyone else

Yeah that's me. How dare i like when we pick players i liked when scouting them.

 

[yianik]

Drafted Slafkovsky due to the size and skill package.
Draft Owen Beck who is a pest and plays a physical and agitation game.
Signed Luke Tuch when they could have let him go to UFA.
Signed Struble when they could have let him go to UFA.
Wanted to keep Anderson as part of the team due to his blend of size and toughness.
Drafted Jared Davidson, a rugged forward who sticks up for his teammates and is no stranger to dropping the gloves.
Drafted Florian Xhekaj, a fighter like his brother.
Drafted Owen Protz, one of the most physical and violent players in the draft and a willing fighter.
Drafted Tyler Thorpe a 6'5 physical forward.
Drafted Ben Merrill a 6'4 defensive forward with some bite.

Do you see a disconnect between HUGO and MSL ?

I remember Bergevin going out and getting Briere, PAP and Vanek, and MT wouldn't play them because they didn't play his game. Disconnect.

I remember TT stating that the currency of the NHL was Cs and PMDs and he was drafting the currency of the NHL. So we wanted PMDs , right ?And Bergevin loaded us up with a Redwood Forest without a PMD to be seen in the actual lineup.

I don't think we can say MSL doesn't like the big tough guys at this point, but I wish the team played a more physical style. Opposing teams sail down the ice and own our zone.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Kotkaniemi Sergachev Caufield is three top 14 picks in the five seasons before Hughes was hired.

Sergachev was drafted in 2016, 6 years before Hughes came in and Caufield was drafted 15th. They weren't rebuilding. All that remained when Bergevin left was a hole in the ground with just a handful of future players, far from enough to be counted on. Not even half a top 6 on offense, not even half a top 4 on D. This sort of hole takes years to fill up.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I got it wrong (thought Sergy was 2017 and Caufield 14th OA, but you were cunning in your delinations!) but I don't think you even need to argue that the rebuild started with HuGo's hiring -- that much is plainly obvious. It shouldn't even be up for debate.

A more interesting debate is if Caufield, Suzuki, and Guhle (+) counts as a good, normal, or bad initial position of a rebuild's asset bank.

It's highly insufficient and the people banking on them to uplift the team in the intervening years of the rebuild are living in lala land. 1/3 of a top6F and 1/4 of a top4D won't get you far. Even though we have some vets to fill those positions in the meantime, they are vets with a lot of shortcomings.

 

[Benstheman]

Reinbacher, Laine and Demidov coming in next season.

Fowler, Beck, Hage, 2025 1st pick and McKenna coming in the season after.

Then time to contend.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Dumping is not rebuilding since you're stripping away. You rebuild by adding, not stripping.

Potato potatoe

Tanking is an obligatory first step to rebuilding. One can't be dissociated from the other. When you dump, you tank, you start the rebuild.

The more related term is roster turnover. Roster turnover ---> tanking ---> rebuilding.