Blue Jays Discussion: The "So, How About Them Blue Jays?" Edition. [1.5 Games ahead of Yankees]

[TF97]

Arrieta is one out away

 

[trellaine201]

Off topic lol but VMA awards, anyone watch Kanye West babble?

He's running for president 2020, serious **** lol

 

[TF97]

He's done it! A no hitter for Arrieta!

 

[tml19]

All I'm saying is that Shapiro may do his evaluation and find several inefficiencies with how the Jays draft and develop. I know what the drafting has allowed us to do but that doesn't mean it can't be even better. They haven't drafted a true high impact positional player in quite some time, and not all of those have to necessarily be first round picks.

They trade for them. Kind of like the leafs new way of drafting skill then trading some to turn into size down the road. They Jays feel they can develop more high quality pitching then position players which is fine. I highly doubt that changes with Shapiro coming in.

 

[The Nemesis]

All I'm saying is that Shapiro may do his evaluation and find several inefficiencies with how the Jays draft and develop. I know what the drafting has allowed us to do but that doesn't mean it can't be even better. They haven't drafted a true high impact positional player in quite some time, and not all of those have to necessarily be first round picks.

Finding impact players in the later rounds has more to do with development and luck than it does with drafting. I could see him trying to overhaul the developmental system to reduce the bust rate, but the drafting process is absolutely not broke at the moment and I wouldn't want to mess with a good thing. Who cares if they don't draft an impact position player? Maybe Pompey or Alford become that. Maybe Travis gets over his injury and becomes that. Maybe Tellez' power explodes as he moves up the system and he becomes that. And even if none of them do, They've done alright to this point by acquiring position players.

 

[Cloned]

Finding impact players in the later rounds has more to do with development and luck than it does with drafting. I could see him trying to overhaul the developmental system to reduce the bust rate, but the drafting process is absolutely not broke at the moment and I wouldn't want to mess with a good thing. Who cares if they don't draft an impact position player? Maybe Pompey or Alford become that. Maybe Travis gets over his injury and becomes that. Maybe Tellez' power explodes as he moves up the system and he becomes that. And even if none of them do, They've done alright to this point by acquiring position players.

That's really all I'm saying.

He's going to come in and evaluate everything. If he finds flaws in the drafting/development system, he's going to fix them. Look, we can go on all day long about how the team does well trading for position players and whatnot, and it certainly appears to be true, but what if you can improve on that? What if you can draft a Goldschmidt AND trade for a Donaldson? What if you can draft a Hoffman AND draft a Goldschmidt AND trade for a Donaldson, and develop and keep Hoffman when he becomes an ace?

 

[Bomber0104]

That's really all I'm saying.

He's going to come in and evaluate everything. If he finds flaws in the drafting/development system, he's going to fix them. Look, we can go on all day long about how the team does well trading for position players and whatnot, and it certainly appears to be true, but what if you can improve on that? What if you can draft a Goldschmidt AND trade for a Donaldson? What if you can draft a Hoffman AND draft a Goldschmidt AND trade for a Donaldson, and develop and keep Hoffman when he becomes an ace?

Drafting better is something that every organization wants to do better.

I don't expect Shapiro, AA, or any MLB exec/GM for that matter, differ all that much in that ideology.

 

[Cloned]

Drafting better is something that every organization wants to do better.

I don't expect Shapiro, AA, or any MLB exec/GM for that matter, differ all that much in that ideology.

Yes, but Shapiro actually has the credentials and experience to do it. Saying you want to do something and doing it are two different things.

 

[Bomber0104]

Yes, but Shapiro actually has the credentials and experience to do it. Saying you want to do something and doing it are two different things.

We'll see I guess.

I'm not as familiar with Shapiro as I am with AA but I haven't come away disappointed with the Jays homegrown talent.

There's been both quality and quantity coming through.

If Shapiro can help improve it then that's great, obviously.

 

[Daisy Jane]

So here is my question

do y'all think if we didn't do all the trades, we'd still be where we are? (or if we just did the Tulo trade?) I was just wondering, if the team is just getting hot at the right time, or if it's just a belief because of all the trades etc.

 

[lebdafor norris]

That's really all I'm saying.

He's going to come in and evaluate everything. If he finds flaws in the drafting/development system, he's going to fix them. Look, we can go on all day long about how the team does well trading for position players and whatnot, and it certainly appears to be true, but what if you can improve on that? What if you can draft a Goldschmidt AND trade for a Donaldson? What if you can draft a Hoffman AND draft a Goldschmidt AND trade for a Donaldson, and develop and keep Hoffman when he becomes an ace?

If that happens, then the Jays will become the St Louis Cardinals of the AL.

 

[Shimso]

So here is my question

do y'all think if we didn't do all the trades, we'd still be where we are? (or if we just did the Tulo trade?) I was just wondering, if the team is just getting hot at the right time, or if it's just a belief because of all the trades etc.

I think we'd be fighting for a wild card. I think the biggest impact of the Price trade wasn't improving pitching but instead showing the players what management thought and that it wasn't going to be a repeat of last year.

 

[hoglund]

I think we'd be fighting for a wild card. I think the biggest impact of the Price trade wasn't improving pitching but instead showing the players what management thought and that it wasn't going to be a repeat of last year.

For most of the year, the Jays have been a good team, that's been underachieving. Without the trades, they are still a contender, but more for the wild card, with the trades they're contending to win the East division.

 

[A1LeafNation]

Isn't Shapiro the guy who let Peter Brand get away aka Paul DePodesta?

 

[Cloned]

If that happens, then the Jays will become the St Louis Cardinals of the AL.

And we'd all love that.

 

[metafour]

That's really all I'm saying.

He's going to come in and evaluate everything. If he finds flaws in the drafting/development system, he's going to fix them. Look, we can go on all day long about how the team does well trading for position players and whatnot, and it certainly appears to be true, but what if you can improve on that? What if you can draft a Goldschmidt AND trade for a Donaldson? What if you can draft a Hoffman AND draft a Goldschmidt AND trade for a Donaldson, and develop and keep Hoffman when he becomes an ace?

What the hell are you even talking about? Our "drafting" over the past 3-4 years has been BETTER than the Indians'. If he's going to come in and fix all these supposed nonexistent "flaws" you see, why wasn't he doing the same thing in Cleveland already LMFAO?

You claimed that this regime cant develop position players which is a complete BS statement. Pompey from no-name Canadian HS athlete with minimal baseball experience to Top 100 (or better) prospect. Alford from raw highschooler who wasted three years playing football to surprisingly Top 100 prospect in his first year as a full-time baseball player. Pillar from 32nd round college draft pick (ie: he shouldn't have even made it past AA) to the 12th best CF in the MLB this year according to fWAR. Barreto from a 16-year old to a guy that played a pivotal role in the Donaldson trade just two years later. Did we not also develop Yan Gomes, a guy who was worth 3.3 and 4.5 fWAR over the past two seasons?

Your entire premise is wrong.

 

[Cloned]

What the hell are you even talking about? Our "drafting" over the past 3-4 years has been BETTER than the Indians'. If he's going to come in and fix all these supposed nonexistent "flaws" you see, why wasn't he doing the same thing in Cleveland already LMFAO?

You claimed that this regime cant develop position players which is a complete BS statement. Pompey from no-name Canadian HS athlete with minimal baseball experience to Top 100 (or better) prospect. Alford from raw highschooler who wasted three years playing football to surprisingly Top 100 prospect in his first year as a full-time baseball player. Pillar from 32nd round college draft pick (ie: he shouldn't have even made it past AA) to the 12th best CF in the MLB this year according to fWAR. Barreto from a 16-year old to a guy that played a pivotal role in the Donaldson trade just two years later. Did we not also develop Yan Gomes, a guy who was worth 3.3 and 4.5 fWAR over the past two seasons?

Your entire premise is wrong.

Holy cow man, relax. Don't take my post so personally. Not every internet poster/post is a keyboard hero intent on destroying your world view on the Jays. Your post doesn't have to take on the tone of someone I personally offended. It's what annoys me about this board (not the Jays board specifically, I'm talking about HF overall) sometimes. ONE comment that's against the grain, and it's jumped all over with the indignant zeal and rabidness that would typically be reserved for a personally offensive statement.

I don't really see how any of what you said contradicts my specific points:

1. I already acknowledged how our drafting has been used to acquire impact players through trades.
2. I specifically stated we haven't drafted/signed/developed and kept a true impact positional player in quite some time. This is true. Pompey and Alfrod have potential. Neither are established. Pillar has a part season of being an above average to good CF. Again, not established. Yan Gomes, a guy we let go because we thought his development wasn't going to make him an impact player. That's a mistake that's actually on the scouting/development system.

And if you think the Jays system is great and has "nonexistant" flaws, then more power to you. Personally I would rather a management team that is never satisfied with the things are and always looking to improve. There are areas to improve on, despite the success they've had.

 

[Nasty Nazem]

This is a false premise. You get that impression because ~70% of this team's top draft picks go towards pitching, with that being the case it should be no surprise that we have a system weighted in the side of pitching. They can't develop positional players? Both Dalton Pompey and Anthony Alford are top prospects despite coming into this system as incredibly raw athletes. Franklin Barreto was a star prospect who turned into Josh Donaldson. How about Kevin Pillar? A late round college pick who has surprisingly blossomed into a starting-caliber center fielder. Even Ryan Goins is starting to look like a useful player. Rowdy Tellez was also breaking out before he broke the hamate bone in his hand. You could even go on to state that Yan Gomes was "developed" by the Jays before they ultimately misjudged his upside and shipped him away.

Most of those are prospects. In terms of producing actual major league players, Jays have miserably failed at that over the years and haven't really produced a consistent everyday player since Lind and Aaron Hill. Pillar might turn into an everyday regular year in year out but he's not really there yet. Outside of that... its been grim for like the past decade. On the plus side, they have managed to develop major league players into Bautista/Edwin into superstars so you gotta give them credit for that.

Hopefully Pompey/Alford/Tellez/Urena could change that and Jays can manage to produce a good everyday player.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Most of those are prospects. In terms of producing actual major league players, Jays have miserably failed at that over the years and haven't really produced a consistent everyday player since Lind and Aaron Hill. Pillar might turn into an everyday regular year in year out but he's not really there yet. Outside of that... its been grim for like the past decade. On the plus side, they have managed to develop major league players into Bautista/Edwin into superstars so you gotta give them credit for that.

Hopefully Pompey/Alford/Tellez/Urena could change that and Jays can manage to produce a good everyday player.

well first off you're looking at guys not drafted and developed by this regime. AA was only hired in 2010, you expect him to pull position players who are ready in 2011 out of his ass?

I'd say he's done pretty well in 5 years, considering his focus has been mainly on pitching.

 

[Cloned]

well first off you're looking at guys not drafted and developed by this regime. AA was only hired in 2010, you expect him to pull position players who are ready in 2011 out of his ass?

I'd say he's done pretty well in 5 years, considering his focus has been mainly on pitching.

No one is saying it's AA fault.

My point is that it's a noted weakness in the organization. Regardless of whose fault it is, if Shapiro recognizes that and takes steps to turn that weakness into a strength, the Jays will be that much better because of it.

 

[Nasty Nazem]

well first off you're looking at guys not drafted and developed by this regime. AA was only hired in 2010, you expect him to pull position players who are ready in 2011 out of his ass?

I'd say he's done pretty well in 5 years, considering his focus has been mainly on pitching.

I wasn't talking about AA specifically...

Just saying Jays in general for the past decade have failed to produce a solid everyday regular. I'd be kinda nice if Jays could manage to produce a star through their system, pitcher or hitter.

I also forgot to mention Lawrie in my previous post so that's one for the Jays. He was in the system for one year but it was his best year and he did turn into an everyday regular so I think you can credit Jays for his development both offensive and defensively.

 

[metafour]

Most of those are prospects. In terms of producing actual major league players, Jays have miserably failed at that over the years and haven't really produced a consistent everyday player since Lind and Aaron Hill. Pillar might turn into an everyday regular year in year out but he's not really there yet. Outside of that... its been grim for like the past decade. On the plus side, they have managed to develop major league players into Bautista/Edwin into superstars so you gotta give them credit for that.

Hopefully Pompey/Alford/Tellez/Urena could change that and Jays can manage to produce a good everyday player.

Most of those guys were drafted as HS players.

I'm sorry, were they supposed to be established MLB players within 2-4 years of being drafted out of HS LOL? The point is that they are all quite obviously DEVELOPING, which kind of disproves the theory that we supposedly can't develop them.

Look at the college-aged draftees that we've developed: two guys are currently starting and contributing on arguably the best team in baseball (Pillar, Goins). Another accumulated nearly 8 fWAR over two seasons with the Indians (Gomes).

 

[Eyedea]

Development isn't a problem. You're often going to find more busts than successes when drafting anyways so you might as well target 1) the most sought after commodity and 2) the players that have the highest ceiling, despite inherent risk.

Balance the selections and you may just see the entire approach falter.

 

[Swervin81]

Shapiro's drafting was pretty bad. Most of the core guys of note he got were in trade when they were prospects (Sizemore/Lee/Phillips for Bartolo, Kluber for Westbrook, Carrasco for Lee, Brantley for CC, Carlos Santana for Blake, Coco for Finley, Hafner for scrubs, and Choo for Broussard). I'll give him credit for Kipnis, Lindor, Asdrubal Cabrera, Franklin Gutierrez, (not) Fausto Carmona, and Chisenhall, though. I guess you could say he oversaw the development too of the already previously drafted/signed IFA/AFA CC, Branyan, Peralta, and V-Mart.

Trevor Crowe, tho

 

[Eyedea]

Oh no, his 1st round pick in 2005 busted.