Prospect Info: The Second Overall Pick Thread: Part III (Kakko/Hughes Talk)

[Ola]

Undermining the Liiga much? There were nine Liiga players on the Finnish team that beat Canada 3-1 on Friday. FEL might not be much compared to the NHL but it's a far cry from the ECHL.

I agree, but note that that its not a comparision of Liiga to NHL vs ECHL to NHL -- its Liiga to an US all-star team vs ECHL to NHL. There is no NHL team that even remotely come close to being as loaded as the US roster.

Sorry if I was unclear!

 

[Ola]

The 1st overall pick was traded 4 times in 6 drafts between 1998 and 2003

But are you counting the Viktor Kozlov trade that was made before it was clear that it would be a first overall pick?

 

[aufheben]

Oh god, who said the word this time? You're all getting coal for Christmas.

 

[Vinny]

Just ..... Mark Messier, not generational? You must be a kid not putting him in that list.

 

[AlternateSideParking]

There have been far fewer than that

Maybe on your list. Mine has at least 20 off the top of my head. Lindros for how he was viewed at the time he was drafted and at his peak.

McDavid
Crosby
Ovechkin
Lidstrom
Jagr
Lindros
Roy
Hasek
Bourque
Gretzky
Mario
Orr
Messier
Mikita
Esposito
Hull
Beliveau
Harvey
Shore
Richard

 

[Fugazy]

I'm wondering... Might the Devils trade the pick... I assume it has never happened. And it's very far-fetched, I know.

Not going to happen.

 

[FinnishSniper]

When checking your guys’ thread I see some level-headed rational comments. When I check the Devils’ thread I see a ton of nonsense comments. You guys should honestly check it, it’s hilarious.

I hope you guys get Kakko, the Devils don’t deserve him

 

[patnyrnyg]

this is a dumb conversation that's been had several times already in these threads. "generational" means different things to different people, let's just leave it at that. Instead, I'd say that I think it's doubtful that either Hughes or Kakko is the best player in the league in any one season which puts them below players like Crosby in the "how good are they" chart

I quoted this as I thought it needed to be said again. Arguing over whether a player was/is/will be a generational player is pointless unless you are on the same page with the person as to what constitutes "generational". To me, it is a player who is among the top-3 or 4 players in the World from the time they enter the league (assuming they do so at 18-19) and are then the best or 2nd best for their entire prime. At the very least, a general consensus that the player is the best/2nd best. People have argued if Lemieux was better than Gretzky and at what point Lemieux became the better player. However, for years nobody was arguing that anyone else was better than either of those players.n As they get into their mid-30s, they are still playing at an elite level, even if they are no longer a perennial Hart Finalist. Yes, I believe you can have more than 1 generational player playing at one time. I think people need to stop being so literal in how they interpret some of these things as it pertains to sports. Similar to the argument of the MVP. Is it the most "Valuable", and therefore how can a player be "valuable" to a last place team?

 

[Lepardi]

I agree, but note that that its not a comparision of Liiga to NHL vs ECHL to NHL -- its Liiga to an US all-star team vs ECHL to NHL. There is no NHL team that even remotely come close to being as loaded as the US roster.

Sorry if I was unclear!

I hope there's also no NHL team that's nearly as disorganized as the North Americans are at this point of the tournament when they've just got together. I also don't think it's fair to say that Tampa Bay isn't "even remotely close" to being as loaded as this US team. They've got an amazing top-6 but they've also got guys like Glendening, Derek Ryan and Frank Vatrano, and Ryan Suter was probably their only star-calibre D-man against Finland. Didn't look like a star when trying to stop Kakko in overtime though.

 

[1OApick]

If you get Kakko you also get work maniac. You just give keys of the MSG on draft day and he'll skate there everyday. He just loves to play and improve. And to be clear you get a good one anycase.

 

[Edge]

Just ..... Mark Messier, not generational? You must be a kid not putting him in that list.

I have to tell you, I'm not sure he's on mine either.

Nor is Lidstrom.

Those are probably my two more controversial omissions.

 

[Ola]

I have to tell you, I'm not sure he's on mine either.

Nor is Lidstrom.

Those are probably my two more controversial omissions.

Are we talking about generational talents or players?

Neither Mess nor Lindström makes my generational talents list, but it’s hard to argue that guys like them comes around more than like per decade, maybe...

Mike Modano wasn’t a generational talent, neither is Hughes. Franchise player? Of course.

Kakko has a ton of proving to do if he is to make the generational list. But sure, I wouldn’t rule it out if he keeps improving and goes Forsberg 2.0 on the NHL...

 

[JimmyG89]

Let's just enjoy that we are finally getting someone like this in the draft. Not 10 years into their career, but as an 18 year old player. Someone who we have a chance to see play for 15 years here and be one of the best players in the league. We got it out of a 7th rounder for roughly 12 years. Passing of the torch coming over the next two years will be quite the sight to see.

 

[nyr2k2]

I don't know how you'd argue against Lidstrom. 1500+ games, 1100+ points, seven Norris trophies (one of three to ever do that), 12-time All Star, Olympic Gold, WC Gold, a Conn Smythe, 4 Cups, first born-and-raised European to win a Conn Smythe, or a Norris, or captain a Stanley Cup winner, and when he retired he had the most games played by a born-and-raised European. He was among the best couple defenseman in the league basically every year, won a freakin' Norris at 41, and was a trailblazer in the for international players. Generational. A lot of the other names mentioned I can see the argument both ways, but not Lidstrom. He was as good as they come for a solid 15 years.

 

[True Blue]

I have to tell you, I'm not sure he's on mine either.

Nor is Lidstrom.

Those are probably my two more controversial omissions.

Messier is interesting. He did not have the sheer talent level that most on that list had. I still have no idea of how that shot off the right wing with one leg in the air every made it past the goalie as many times as it did. But what he had was force of will and the ability to do whatever it took. Clearly there was talent as well, but those are two items that really drove him. I think that the overall context on what he meant to a team, as player, enforcer, psychologist, or whatever else was needed, that is what makes him generational. For my money, the best leader of a sports team ever. In any sport.

 

[Lepardi]

Neither Mess nor Lindström makes my generational talents list

"Lindström"? And you're from Sweden? I'd like to quote Stephen A Smith: That is BLASPHEMOUS!

 

[Edge]

Messier is interesting. He did not have the sheer talent level that most on that list had. I still have no idea of how that shot off the right wing with one leg in the air every made it past the goalie as many times as it did. But what he had was force of will and the ability to do whatever it took. Clearly there was talent as well, but those are two items that really drove him. I think that the overall context on what he meant to a team, as player, enforcer, psychologist, or whatever else was needed, that is what makes him generational. For my money, the best leader of a sports team ever. In any sport.

And that's what makes him interesting.

From a talent standpoint, there were many, many cases where he wasn't the most talented player on his team, let alone in the league. In some cases, you could argue he was second or even third.

But he was the epitome of a guy who got every drop out of what he possessed and was driven like few players ever in the history of the game.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

Let's just enjoy that we are finally getting someone like this in the draft. Not 10 years into their career, but as an 18 year old player. Someone who we have a chance to see play for 15 years here and be one of the best players in the league. We got it out of a 7th rounder for roughly 12 years. Passing of the torch coming over the next two years will be quite the sight to see.

It’s amazing. Don’t even care about the Hughes/Kakko or Generational/Franchise debates one bit. We are finally getting a shot at one of these players.

 

[Edge]

I don't know how you'd argue against Lidstrom. 1500+ games, 1100+ points, seven Norris trophies (one of three to ever do that), 12-time All Star, Olympic Gold, WC Gold, a Conn Smythe, 4 Cups, first born-and-raised European to win a Conn Smythe, or a Norris, or captain a Stanley Cup winner, and when he retired he had the most games played by a born-and-raised European. He was among the best couple defenseman in the league basically every year, won a freakin' Norris at 41, and was a trailblazer in the for international players. Generational. A lot of the other names mentioned I can see the argument both ways, but not Lidstrom. He was as good as they come for a solid 15 years.

See, now I disagree a little.

Lidstrom was a guy who really cleaned up in a a transition era where guys like Leetch, Chelios, Bourque, Coffey, etc. had all faded or aged. But he was ahead of that next generation of guys that would follow. A great, Hall of Fame defenseman without a single doubt. But he wasn't a guy who changed the way the game played, he wasn't a guy who redefined the position, etc.

He was a guy who was comfortably in that second tier until he was in his 30s. And there's a reason for that.

 

[nyr2k2]

See, now I disagree a little.

Lidstrom was a guy who really cleaned up in a a transition era where guys like Leetch, Chelios, Bourque, Coffey, etc. had all faded or aged. But he was ahead of that next generation of guys that would follow. A great, Hall of Fame defenseman without a single doubt. But he wasn't a guy who changed the way the game played, he wasn't a guy who redefined the position, etc.

He was a guy who was comfortably in that second tier until he was in his 30s. And there's a reason for that.

I don't think either of those are requisites for being a generational player. You look at a guy like Crosby, who seems to be unanimously regarded as generational, he neither changed the way the game was played nor redefined the center position. He was/is just amazingly good. Ovechkin redefined the power forward role, sure. But I don't agree that those are valid criteria for judging whether a player is generational.

Lidstrom was, to me, similarly sensational. He was a fantastic defender who also was good for 60+ every year. And you can argue that with his accomplishments, being the first European to do XYZ, that his contribution did change the game, helping to open doors for future European players to increasingly step into leadership roles.

I don't think there was a day in his career where there was ever anything second tier about Nick Lidstrom.

 

[Edge]

I don't think either of those are requisites for being a generational player. You look at a guy like Crosby, who seems to be unanimously regarded as generational, he neither changed the way the game was played nor redefined the center position. He was/is just amazingly good. Ovechkin redefined the power forward role, sure. But I don't agree that those are valid criteria for judging whether a player is generational.

Lidstrom was, to me, similarly sensational. He was a fantastic defender who also was good for 60+ every year. And you can argue that with his accomplishments, being the first European to do XYZ, that his contribution did change the game, helping to open doors for future European players to increasingly step into leadership roles.

I don't think there was a day in his career where there was ever anything second tier about Nick Lidstrom.

Like I said, great HOF player. But until he was 30, he was never in the same conversation with Leetch, Bourque, Chelios, Coffey, or a few others. He simply wasn't.

I also firmly believe that if we look at a snapshot at any given time, and have a double digit list of generational players, we're probably being way too loose with the criteria.

 

[nyr2k2]

Like I said, great HOF player. But until he was 30, he was never in the same conversation with Leetch, Bourque, Chelios, Coffey, or a few others. He simply wasn't.

I also firmly believe that if we look at a snapshot at any given time, and have a double digit list of generational players, we're probably being way too loose with the criteria.

I won't address your second point since I'm not really talking about anyone else, just Lidstrom.

When you consider that the guy's peak of dominance was basically fifteen years, all his records, his status as one of the greatest and most accomplished European players in the history of the game, the fact that he was dominant at both ends of the ice, etc., I just don't know how you could not think he was a generational player. That you didn't consider him in the same class as a Brian Leetch or Chris Chelios until he was 30 doesn't really do it for me, since he continued to be dominant until he was 41. He won all those Norris trophies and the Conn Smythe after 30. I don't think you need to be considered generational the moment you step on the ice to be considered generational when you hang them up.

If you asked 100 people to list their top six or seven defensemen ever, I'd wager 95 of them would have Lidstrom there. He's in my top five, easily. Being one of the five greatest ever to play your position, is, to me, the defenition of generational.

But, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

[Crease]

The generational debate is an exercise in futility because everyone has their own definition. To me, there's the big four (Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, and Howe), and then there's everyone else. Franchise players of varying degrees, if you will.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

I have to tell you, I'm not sure he's on mine either.

Nor is Lidstrom.

Those are probably my two more controversial omissions.

Out of curiosity: would Bossy, Trottier, Francis or Potvin make your list?

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

It’s amazing. Don’t even care about the Hughes/Kakko or Generational/Franchise debates one bit. We are finally getting a shot at one of these players.

Yup.

And if we play our cards right, we will be in a position to add another one a year from now.