The San Jose Sharks are horror-bad

[Bounces R Way]

A stern talking to aughta fix it

 

[Hodge]

Sure, but not all top 2 picks contributed. The elite picks did.

I don't think Seguin had much to do with Boston's Cup. Stamkos played 1 game in TB's first Cup, etc.

That said - it is a different argument. I never argued against the draft - just that it should be predetermined and spread out fairly across the teams.

Hedman, also a top 2 pick, won the Conn Smythe the year Stamkos only played in 1 game. So Boston and St. Louis are the only exceptions among the last 14 champions.

 

[AvroArrow]

Yes, but this is besides the point.

Top picks will still exist in a draft cycle. These are 2 different arguments going on right now.

If you just picked first overall and are unhappy with your pick, you can trade for another player that was drafted high - like Vegas did with Eichel or SJ did with Thornton.

In a cycle, you’ll still have bad teams that will trade players for more picks - just now they’ll know the position of those picks prior to the trade instead of all the lottery protected trades.

This is in a weird way some sort of communist NHL draft type scenario, hell no lol. The draft is fine, even the adjustments the NHL made to the lottery a few years ago is alright.

Just make there some sort of punishments when teams pull what Pittsburgh did when they drafted Lemieux, then again we have a lottery now so that somewhat will deter teams from doing that.

The league just needs to be able to identify the difference between a tanking/rebuilding team vs a team who's GM/Coach is intentionally trying to throw games. They are not the same thing. You still want your guys to compete hard and play in a proper system.

This cycle idea you've proposed just sounds horrendous. Elite teams can end up with top picks, the bottom feeders can end up picking near the end of the draft, just doesn't make sense lol.

 

[Divine]

This is in a weird way some sort of communist NHL draft type scenario, hell no lol. The draft is fine, even the adjustments the NHL made to the lottery a few years ago is alright.

Just make there some sort of punishments when teams pull what Pittsburgh did when they drafted Lemieux, then again we have a lottery now so that somewhat will deter teams from doing that.

The league just needs to be able to identify the difference between a tanking/rebuilding team vs a team who's GM/Coach is intentionally trying to throw games. They are not the same thing. You still want your guys to compete hard and play in a proper system.

This cycle idea you've proposed just sounds horrendous. Elite teams can end up with top picks, the bottom feeders can end up picking near the end of the draft, just doesn't make sense lol.

The salary cap would prevent a lot of that. Elite teams would have to unload good players or top picks. It's not a fully completed idea, it would be reworked.

Hedman, also a top 2 pick, won the Conn Smythe the year Stamkos only played in 1 game. So Boston and St. Louis are the only exceptions among the last 14 champions.

Well, Vegas would be an argument for the idea. Nothing is stopping teams from trading for top picks like Vegas did.

Usually higher end teams trade their draft picks for NHL-ready players, and bad teams do the opposite. I think it would all eventually balance out. Some teams would get better draft picks than others and be at the top of the league for longer - but that already happens with elite drafts - like what Pittsburgh did with Crosby/Malkin in consecutive drafts.

 

[weastern bias]

We get it, you don't like or understand the draft, thank you for completely derailing the thread

Can we please get back to how hilariously bad San Jose has been?

 

[bossram]

If someone has an issue with the worst team getting to pick in the top three then they don't understand the importance of healthy competition for the league.

Where did I say I don't agree with that?

 

[ChaoticOrange]

We get it, you don't like or understand the draft, thank you for completely derailing the thread

Can we please get back to how hilariously bad San Jose has been?

Oilers play SJ Thursday. The stoppable force vs the moveable object.

If they're ever going to beat anybody, it'll be the Oilers with how they've played so far

 

[Bear of Bad News]

We get it, you don't like or understand the draft, thank you for completely derailing the thread

Can we please get back to how hilariously bad San Jose has been?

Yes, for the love of God, let's get back on topic.

 

[Romang67]

We get it, you don't like or understand the draft, thank you for completely derailing the thread

Can we please get back to how hilariously bad San Jose has been?

Seems a bit hasty until we see if Grier's stern talking to fixed the problem, no?

 

[weastern bias]

Oilers play SJ Thursday. The stoppable force vs the moveable object.

If they're ever going to beat anybody, it'll be the Oilers with how they've played so far

I just can't see it with the Oilers offensive talent, we're definitely gonna be your slump busters

We'll beat some fellow bottom feeder at some point this year but it's gonna have to be a team that lacks star scorers, take one look at our D core and you'll change your mind, lol

 

[coooldude]

Well Sam Gagner is back in the league..



The current draft system isn't the only way.

Other leagues, such as the most popular sport on the planet, relegate teams for being bad. We reward them. Heck, even in hockey, European leagues have relegation.

Also, all I asked was show me that the top teams in the league all disproportinately have top 5 picks - you didn't show me. Instead, you argued that cup winners have a few top 5 picks... okay? What does that prove? Teams on the bottom also have top 5 picks. SJ has a few top 7 picks on their roster right now. Edmonton, currently 31st has a bunch of top 5 picks on their roster. Calgary, currently 30th, the same. You can keep going up from the bottom of the league also.

You're fixated on the NHL being the only correct system for some reason.

It's socialism vs capitalism in a way. I'm a capitalist but understand some others support socialism. It doesn't mean one way is the only correct way - there's no 'right vs wrong'. I believe if teams suck, they should find a way to be better. You believe if teams suck, the league needs to give them the top prospects every year until they're better.

Hahaha. Dude, you are Stephen Colbert levels of satirically funny, but I don't think you're trying to be.

No North American league has a relegation system. Europe does. Are you arguing Europe is more capitalist than North America?

A full relegation system requires so. much. more. to function than just "not rewarding bad teams," and even as it functions, it's a horrendously top-heavy system that heavily relies on petro-state dollars that are decidedly un-capitalist to prop up a bunch of teams that can bribe their way into contention. Are you, instead, perhaps, a lover of the kleptocracy? Are you the kind of "capitalist" who really admires dictators?

I'm not fixated on the NHL's system being right, in fact, the lottery system is definitely flawed. Nor are all the other people telling you your draft cycle idea is dumb. My argument is strictly limited to

1. draft cycle is a horrendously bad idea and doesn't even accomplish the thing you want it to accomplish, which is some sort of "capitalist" (not at all capitalist) random assignment of prospects to the league, and it definitely doesn't solve a problem that needs to be solved. Almost every other post in the past 5 pages is giving you all the arguments why, I'm not going to re-hash it all for you.

2. People making any other argument that the Sharks somehow don't deserve a high pick because we are one team in a long line of bad teams who are stripping the team down for a rebuild, and the team who probably has the best claim to trying *too hard* last year and missing out on a huge top 3, are also wrong and their arguments also make little sense.

Anything else about how bad the Sharks are, how bad Quinn or Grier is, etc. etc., go for it.

And on this note I am truly leaving the inane "draft cycle" discussion with this absolute donkey of a debater.

 

[weastern bias]

Seems a bit hasty until we see if Grier's stern talking to fixed the problem, no?

To be fair, I hadn't considered the power of positive thinking

Maybe if they just visualize themselves winning it will all fall into place

 

[Xelebes]

The biggest problem is that the Sharks are not taking. They are losing. It's annoying and not entertaining. Either they keep losing and lose their fanbase, which will cause the team to go bankrupt and disappear, or they get some talent to come their way to improve their situation and develop an entertaining product.

What does jiggery-poking with the drafting system have to do with this? The team sucks and the cupboards are bare. They misread their contracts and they are looking at bankruptcy. The draft is one of the ways of ameliorating this issue. You wanting to take that away from them simply guarantees that the Sharks are going to continue sucking and have bare cupboards.

I have a serious problem with the meddlers. Perhaps it is them who are the problem.

 

[TheBeard]

Oilers play SJ Thursday. The stoppable force vs the moveable object.

If they're ever going to beat anybody, it'll be the Oilers with how they've played so far

No one’s job has ever been more on the line than Woodcroft’s.

 

[TheBeard]

The biggest problem is that the Sharks are not taking. They are losing. It's annoying and not entertaining. Either they keep losing and lose their fanbase, which will cause the team to go bankrupt and disappear, or they get some talent to come their way to improve their situation and develop an entertaining product.

What does jiggery-poking with the drafting system have to do with this? The team sucks and the cupboards are bare. They misread their contracts and they are looking at bankruptcy. The draft is one of the ways of ameliorating this issue. You wanting to take that away from them simply guarantees that the Sharks are going to continue sucking and have bare cupboards.

I have a serious problem with the meddlers. Perhaps it is them who are the problem.

They’re on the verge of bankruptcy you say?

 

[weastern bias]

The biggest problem is that the Sharks are not taking. They are losing. It's annoying and not entertaining. Either they keep losing and lose their fanbase, which will cause the team to go bankrupt and disappear, or they get some talent to come their way to improve their situation and develop an entertaining product.

What does jiggery-poking with the drafting system have to do with this? The team sucks and the cupboards are bare. They misread their contracts and they are looking at bankruptcy. The draft is one of the ways of ameliorating this issue. You wanting to take that away from them simply guarantees that the Sharks are going to continue sucking and have bare cupboards.

I have a serious problem with the meddlers. Perhaps it is them who are the problem.

The Sharks owner is worth over 9 billion dollars

The NHL has fervently fought to keep teams in Arizona and Florida

The Sharks aren't in danger of relocation or folding, maybe the owner decides to sell but as we've just seen with Ottawa the league will massage the process to get their preferred owner in there who will keep the team in the Bay Area, it's too lucrative of a market for the league to entertain abandoning it

Also, yes, they definitely ARE tanking, lol

 

[Saskatoon]

I'm surprised at the anger in the thread

Sharks had a super long competitive window that they tried to extend when they probably shouldn't have

If they were a cap floor team maybe I would get it but how much better could this team be with $3 million in cap space?

 

[devo09]

Clearly Karlsson was more valuable than some people thought

 

[weastern bias]

Clearly Karlsson was more valuable than some people thought

Yep, led us all the way to last in wins and 4th last in points last year

So glad he pulled us out of the top 3 in the Bedard draft after spending 3 seasons being a complete non factor

 

[PattyLafontaine]

Yes.

SJS should be in AHL. The league should demote them. There should be some limit to how blatantly you tank.

They aren't tanking. They are just that bad. Greer has a made a few questionable signings but we're talking about bottom 6 guys, which isn't going make that much of a difference for a bad tam.

They had to get rid of Burns, Karlsson, Martin Jones.

They still have a few bad contracts in Vlasic, Couture, and Hertl (thanks Joe Will).

This is a result of trading first round picks constantly while the Sharks were competative.

 

[weastern bias]

They aren't tanking. They are just that bad. Greer has a made a few questionable signings but we're talking about bottom 6 guys, which isn't going make that much of a difference for a bad tam.

They had to get rid of Burns, Karlsson, Martin Jones.

They still have a few bad contracts in Vlasic, Couture, and Hertl (thanks Joe Will).

This is a result of trading first round picks constantly while the Sharks were competative.

Make no mistake, the Sharks are tanking

They were just so poorly managed for so long it only took 3 trades to do so, lol

 

[TheBeard]

Yep, led us all the way to last in wins and 4th last in points last year

So glad he pulled us out of the top 3 in the Bedard draft after spending 3 seasons being a complete non factor

EK made us two first rounders and some with his season. The one we got in the deal and the one we didn’t ultimately have to attach to get him off the books.

 

[weastern bias]

EK made us two first rounders and some with his season. The one we got in the deal and the one we didn’t ultimately have to attach to get him off the books.

Unless the Pittsburgh pick wins the lottery I'd rather have Adam Fantilli

 

[PattyLafontaine]

Make no mistake, the Sharks are tanking

They were just so poorly managed for so long it only took 3 trades to do so, lol

All I'm arguing it doesn't matter. There was no combination of moves that would have made the Sharks remotely competitive in 2023-2024 just like they won't be remotely competitive in 2024-2025, 2025-2026 or 2026-2027.

So to me tanking or otherwise would not have mattered. They still only have 25.5% chance at #1 with the worse record.

What no one seemingly has mentioned is that there's a massive drop off in success rate even from the first pick and the #2 pick that isn't in line with a standard distrubution.

Sharks still haven't drafted first since inception. Nobody is owed a #1 pick. Knowing the Sharks luck they'll win the lottery and draft a player like Nail Yakupov or Alexis Lafreniere.

 

[weastern bias]

All I'm arguing it doesn't matter. There was no combination of moves that would have made the Sharks remotely competitive in 2023-2024 just like they won't be remotely competitive in 2024-2025, 2025-2026 or 2026-2027.

So to me tanking or otherwise would not have mattered. They still only have 25.5% chance at #1 with the worse record.

What no one seemingly has mentioned is that there's a massive drop off in success rate even from the first pick and the #2 pick that isn't in line with a standard distrubution.

Sharks still haven't drafted first since inception. Nobody is owed a #1 pick. Knowing the Sharks luck they'll win the lottery and draft a player like Nail Yakupov or Alexis Lafreniere.

Totally agreed, on all counts, especially the fatalistic pessimism, that's Sharks Hockey for ya