The San Jose Sharks are horror-bad

[weastern bias]

Crosby going to the Penguins had no bearing on the draft rules unless you feel that draft was rigged. Anaheim picked second. Montreal picked 5th. These were not bad teams.

But it does have bearing on using it as an example that a random rotation can work in the long run to make the league sustainably competitive

It happened once and the team that happened to win the lottery was already in a tank spiral, using the 2005 draft lottery as an example that a 32 year rotation of picks can leave the bottom teams in the league in a healthy place doesn't make sense as Crosby went to a team that had been tanking and was still terrible the next year

 

[TheBeard]

That's a completely different issue.

Many other leagues have a soft or no salary cap, unless you feel the NHL is inherently different.

We can start a different thread if you want to go through those arguments. This is about the draft.



Why do you have to wait 32 years?

This makes no sense. Do people think it's impossible to win in the NHL without drafting 1st overall? The majority of cup winners did not draft their own first overall pick. Who has Vegas/Tampa drafted 1st overall that carried them to a Cup?

Stamkos? Lecavalier?

also, using Vegas is in poor taste because they were obviously a Guinea pig for expansion rules. If you want to give a team an opportunity to nab decent players from every team and a bounty of additional first and second rounders then I’m sure some teams wound jump at it.

 

[Divine]

But it does have bearing on using it as an example that a random rotation can work in the long run to make the league sustainably competitive

It happened once and the team that happened to win the lottery was already in a tank spiral, using the 2005 draft lottery as an example that a 32 year rotation of picks can leave the bottom teams in the league in a healthy place doesn't make sense as Crosby went to a team that had been tanking and was still terrible the next year

So you actively believe the league has been screwing teams by making the draft lottery more expansive? We disagree here.

 

[weastern bias]

This makes no sense. Do people think it's impossible to win in the NHL without drafting 1st overall? The majority of cup winners did not draft their own first overall pick.

Literally only 3 teams in the last 10 years won cups without their own 1st overall pick on the roster

2014 Kings, who had a #2 pick in Doughty

2019 Blues, who had a #4 pick in Pietrangelo

2023 Knights, who had a historically unique roster construction and used assets to aquire the #2 pick in Eichel

Yes, you need top draft picks to win, there is no recent history that shows otherwise

 

[Divine]

Stamkos? Lecavalier?

I'm talking about the current teams. The draft has changed since both Stamkos and Lecavailier was drafted.

Stamkos was not the reason they won in the playoffs. Maybe if they won the cup 10 years earlier we could say Stamkos carried them. He literally didn't even play in their 2020 Cup win so using him as an example is strange.

They couldn't have won a Cup without Stamkos... who didn't play in the Cup they won the previous year?

 

[weastern bias]

So you actively believe the league has been screwing teams by making the draft lottery more expansive? We disagree here.

No, and you are putting words in my mouth, which I don't appreciate

I think the league is bending towards pressure from fans and executives who complained when Edmonton won 3 #1 picks in a row, so they changed the rules, which hilariously led to them winning the McDavid lottery, so they changed the rules again

The NHL is a public facing business and they are susceptible to the pressures of public opinions, I think it is fans who have a problem with the worst team in the league relieving the #1 pick who are the problem and they monkey's pawed their way into creating a stronger version of the Oilers anyway

No one complains about this in the NFL where there is no draft lottery, the league has more parity than any other in NA pro sports, and the they make money hand over fist year after year

 

[Divine]

Literally only 3 teams in the last 10 years won cups without their own 1st overall pick on the roster

2014 Kings, who had a #2 pick in Doughty

2019 Blues, who had a #4 pick in Pietrangelo

2023 Knights, who had a historically unique roster construction and used assets to aquire the #2 pick in Eichel

Yes, you need top draft picks to win, there is no recent history that shows otherwise

Yes, but was the first overall pick instrumental in getting the Cup?

Take Tampa for example. We're including Stamkos for the Cup wins... did his 1 game in the 2020 Cup win them the Cup that year?

 

[weastern bias]

I’ve proposed numerous times here the idea of the bottom 4 teams having an in-play tourney with the winner getting 1oa.

I also hate this idea

 

[Divine]

No, and you are putting words in my mouth, which I don't appreciate

I think the league is bending towards pressure from fans and executives who complained when Edmonton won 3 #1 picks in a row, so they changed the rules, which hilariously led to them winning the McDavid lottery, so they changed the rules again

The NHL is a public facing business and they are susceptible to the pressures of public opinions, I think it is fans who have a problem with the worst team in the league relieving the #1 pick who are the problem and they monkey's pawed their way into creating a stronger version of the Oilers anyway

No one complains about this in the NFL where there is no draft lottery, the league has more parity than any other in NA pro sports, and the they make money hand over fist year after year

Quite ironic when you started saying I'm against the salary cap.

Tons of people complain about the NFL draft system. The NFL is different, there's not all guaranteed salaries and you can buyout (cut) players without any penalties to the cap for the non-guaranteed salaries. It's weird using the league that's most different from the NHL as it's comparison.

Lastly, your point is actually arguing what I claimed you were arguing - that the league is actively making it less competitive.

 

[TheBeard]

I'm talking about the current teams. The draft has changed since both Stamkos and Lecavailier was drafted.

Stamkos was not the reason they won in the playoffs. Maybe if they won the cup 10 years earlier we could say Stamkos carried them. He literally didn't even play in their 2020 Cup win so using him as an example is strange.

They couldn't have won a Cup without Stamkos... who didn't play in the Cup they won the previous year?

You’re never going to be carried to a cup by a single player, but to say Stanmer was not good in the playoffs is just.. wrong.

I also hate this idea

As a sharks fan I hate it too, but I’m also convinced we don’t end up picking 4th last year if it was in play.

 

[Jee]

Can't wait for tomorrow

 

[Divine]

You’re never going to be carried to a cup by a single player, but to say Stanmer was not good in the playoffs is just.. wrong.

Well, they won a Cup without Stamkos playing - so to say he was instrumental in their cup wins is a bit of a reach wouldn't you say?

I asked which first overall carried their team to a Cup and you brought up Stamkos so I assume you thought he carried them.

Could they not have gotten a player with similar contributions to a 30 year old Stamkos without drafting first overall? Probably.

 

[weastern bias]

Yes, but was the first overall pick instrumental in getting the Cup?

Take Tampa for example. We're including Stamkos for the Cup wins... did his 1 game in the 2020 Cup win them the Cup that year?

If you want to eliminate that year, even though it fits the criteria and proves what you said wasn't true, it's still makes it 6 out of the last 10 rather than 7 of the last 10 winners

And yes, they are largely quite instrumental

2015 - Kane 1st in points

2016 - Crosby Conn Smythe

2017 - Crosby Conn Smythe

2018 - Ovechkin Conn Smythe

2021 - Stamkos 3rd in points

2022 - MacKinnon 1st in goals, 3rd in points

You're wrong on this one, it is an outlier for teams not to have a huge contribution from a #1 pick on a title team, and even those who haven't had massive contributions from other top-5 picks

 

[Divine]

If you want to eliminate that year, even though it fits the criteria and proves what you said wasn't true, it's still makes it 6 out of the last 10 rather than 7 of the last 10 winners

And yes, they are largely quite instrumental

2015 - Kane 1st in points

2016 - Crosby Conn Smythe

2017 - Crosby Conn Smythe

2018 - Ovechkin Conn Smythe

2021 - Stamkos 3rd in points

2022 - MacKinnon 1st in goals, 3rd in points

You're wrong on this one, it is an outlier for teams not to have a huge contribution from a #1 pick on a title team, and even those who haven't had massive contributions from other top-5 picks

I think Crosby would be the exception because he's a generational talent. Most first overall picks aren't generational.

Also, a player that is third in points is a good player - but can be acquired without a first overall wouldn't you say?

I think it's strange to bring up Stamkos when they literally won the Cup a year earlier without him. I'm sure he helped them win, but he wasn't the reason they won.

 

[weastern bias]

Quite ironic when you started saying I'm against the salary cap.

I think you're mixing me up with another poster on this one, I've only engaged you about the draft

 

[Romang67]

Are you aware that you can get a good player outside of first overall? Why is it the leagues job to babysit teams through poor drafting and make it as easy as possible? Let the competence in the organizations take over.

We've already had a draft lottery with a generational talent without accounting for standings - the Crosby draft. The league turned out okay. It didn't collapse, we're still here.

This idea eliminates intentionally tanking. Yes, some teams will be better than others, just as they currently are - so nothing changes there. It just doesn't give poor management the ability to save face by having the NHL come save them - they would have to draft/trade/sign FA's and be as competitive as they could without the NHL coming and saving them from incompetence.



In the current system, yes.
If the system adjusted to the changes, no.

Every team would have a chance at the playoffs every season. You wouldn't have historically bad teams that were intentionally gutted for 5 years of top picks.

The Crosby draft was a weighted lottery. The Penguins had the highest odds of drafting first, tied with 3 other teams.

Yes, it eliminates tanking. So does randomly assigning draft position via a coin flip tournament at the end of the season. I'm not arguing that it doesn't eliminate tanking. I'm saying that it's dumb as shit, and creates a significantly larger issue that the problem it's attempting to solve. If the end goal were to eliminate tanking, there are a multitude of ways to do that. "Solving" the "problem" of intentional tanking isn't hard if we ignore the side effects.

The draft was created as a cost saving measure for the owners, and to promote parity through the draft. Randomly distributing the talent through a cycle doesn't achieve that.

 

[TheBeard]

Well, they won a Cup without Stamkos playing - so to say he was instrumental in their cup wins is a bit of a reach wouldn't you say?

I asked which first overall carried their team to a Cup and you brought up Stamkos so I assume you thought he carried them.

Could they not have gotten a player with similar contributions to a 30 year old Stamkos without drafting first overall? Probably.

I’d say he’s been very instrumental in all of their lengthy playoff runs and using one year out of like 12 to prove some kind of point is just desperate.

But since you’re going there, sure, I guess you don’t need a number one overall guy so long as you’re constantly drafting HoF players year in and year out.

 

[weastern bias]

I think Crosby would be the exception because he's a generational talent. Most first overall picks aren't generational.

Also, a player that is third in points is a good player - but can be acquired without a first overall wouldn't you say?

I think it's strange to bring up Stamkos when they literally won the Cup a year earlier without him. I'm sure he helped them win, but he wasn't the reason they won.

You continue to ignore the fact that most title teams have major contributions from #1 picks, and all of the last 10 have major contributions from top-5 picks

No one is saying #1 pick = cup, but I have laid out and demonstrated that no team in the last 10 years has won a cup without a top-5 pick on the roster, and 70% had a #1

The 2020 Lighting got 1 game out of Stamkos

The 2021 Lighting had him finish 3rd in points, which apparently isn't good enough

Both teams also had Victor Hedman, their #2 pick #1D, who won the Conn Smythe one of those years

Championship teams are built on high draft picks, it's just a fact

 

[Divine]

You continue to ignore the fact that most title teams have major contributions from #1 picks, and all of the last 10 have major contributions from top-5 picks

No one is saying #1 pick = cup, but I have laid out and demonstrated that no team in the last 10 years has won a cup without a top-5 pick on the roster, and 70% had a #1

Yeah, but in this system you'd still have top 5 picks. Drafting definitely helps. I am not abolishing the draft.

Assuming though, that the draft is the most important singular aspect of winning the cup - all teams would be on relatively equal footing every 32 years. Where is the problem? The only difference here would be there would be no benefit in intentionally tanking while hoarding draft picks.

I’d say he’s been very instrumental in all of their lengthy playoff runs and using one year out of like 12 to prove some kind of point is just desperate.

But since you’re going there, sure, I guess you don’t need a number one overall guy so long as you’re constantly drafting HoF players year in and year out.

I'm talking about their cups, not their playoff runs.

You don't have to draft HoF players year in and out, but you must hit on a few players during a 30 year period. Look at Montreal for example, getting Price once at 5th overall made them competitive for almost 20 years.

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

Can't wait for tomorrow

They’ve really become somethin of a spectacle- my cousin loves sports, but hockey usually comes last. Dude was pumped to talk about how shit the Sharks squad is, like I honestly think it’ll get as much attention as how good the Bruins were last year. Shows like PTI and Around the Horn eat this shit up (not that anyone watches ESPN, but you get my meaning).

 

[AvroArrow]

I'm talking about the current teams. The draft has changed since both Stamkos and Lecavailier was drafted.

Stamkos was not good in the playoffs. Maybe if they won the cup 10 years earlier we could say Stamkos carried them. He literally didn't even play in one of their 2020 Cup win so using him as an example is strange.

They still had Hedman at #2 overall though, but yeah using Stamkos in that comparison doesn't really make sense.

But every team since like 2009 had a top draft pick on their team

2009 - Penguins, Sid/Geno/Fleury
2010 - Hawks, Kane/Toews
2011 - Bruins, Seguin
2012 - LA, Kopitar/Doughty
2013 - Hawks again
2014 - LA again
2015 - Hawks again
2016 - Penguins again
2017 - Penguins again
2018 - Caps, Ovechkin/Backstrom
2019 - St. Louis, Pietro/Schenn
2020 - Tampa, Hedman/Stamkos
2021 - Tampa again
2022 - Colorado, Mackinnon/Makar/Landeskog, even Rantanen was a high pick
2023 - Vegas (Expansion team) Pietroaneglo/Eichel


It's a combination of things though, all those teams also had star players who they hit on later in drafts. Or even core guys through FA/trade. But every single cup winner since 2009 had a guy drafted in the top 5 on their team.

Pitts - Letang
Chicago - Keith/Seabrook
Boston - Bergeron/Krejci
LA - Quick
Washington - Kuznetsov
St. Louis - Parayko/Tarasenko
Tampa - Kucherov/Vasi

 

[Divine]

They still had Hedman at #2 overall though, but yeah using Stamkos in that comparison doesn't really make sense.

But every team since like 2009 had a top draft pick on their team

2009 - Penguins, Sid/Geno/Fleury
2010 - Hawks, Kane/Toews
2011 - Bruins, Seguin
2012 - LA, Kopitar/Doughty
2013 - Hawks again
2014 - LA again
2015 - Hawks again
2016 - Penguins again
2017 - Penguins again
2018 - Caps, Ovechkin/Backstrom
2019 - St. Louis, Pietro/Schenn
2020 - Tampa, Hedman/Stamkos
2021 - Tampa again
2022 - Colorado, Mackinnon/Makar/Landeskog, even Rantanen was a high pick
2023 - Vegas (Expansion team) Pietroaneglo/Eichel


It's a combination of things though, all those teams also had star players who they hit on later in drafts. Or even core guys through FA/trade. But every single cup winner since 2009 had a guy drafted in the top 5 on their team.

Pitts - Letang
Chicago - Keith/Seabrook
Boston - Bergeron/Krejci
LA - Quick
Washington - Kuznetsov
St. Louis - Parayko/Tarasenko
Tampa - Kucherov/Vasi

Yes, but I'm not arguing for abolishing the draft.

Nearly every player is drafted into the NHL - of course the draft is important. There's lots of high picks in the NHL, so nearly every team has a high pick on their team in general - so of course that would also be reflected on Cup winners.

It's also a different point than the one I'm making - Vegas signed/traded for their two 'top picks' drafted by other teams - you would still be able to do that.

 

[Not The One]

This is pretty disgusting to see. They could draft the next McDavid next summer and they would still be at the bottom for years to come.

Unpopular opinion: Tanking is stupid and is ruining the league. You've got entire fanbases now rooting for their teams to lose.

 

[SeanMoneyHands]

The Sharks are doing a very good job of tanking.

 

[Stickpucker]

Looking at the Sharks roster...it's wild to see how few of those players they drafted themselves.