Salary Cap: The Salary Cap Thread | Trust me... nothing has changed.

[WayneSid9987]

Dumo was the #2 D-Man in the '16 run and basically the #1 in the '17 run. Crap on his scoring all you want but he's literally our Hjalmarsson atm.

 

[Gurglesons]

If that Duchene return is for real, damn he went for cheap.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If that Duchene return is for real, damn he went for cheap.

It's not. The trade board is just filled with idiots.

 

[Gurglesons]

Dumo was the #2 D-Man in the '16 run and basically the #1 in the '17 run. Crap on his scoring all you want but he's literally our Hjalmarsson atm.

Is Dumo able to handle carrying his own pairing though? Because, I feel like Hammer is.

This year in the playoffs our D was a group effort. Don't know if you can put Dumo as our # 1.

 

[Riptide]

Not having an ELC in the starting six on D kinda sucks. Makes it harder to move Maatta if a deal is there. And saving cap next summer by moving on from Cole.

Pretty sure Ruhwedel will be the guy replacing Cole next season - assuming both he and Hunwick do well this year.

 

[Jenkins]

Is Dumo able to handle carrying his own pairing though? Because, I feel like Hammer is.

This year in the playoffs our D was a group effort. Don't know if you can put Dumo as our # 1.

Dumo carried his pair in the playoffs and overall was our best D man (slightly ahead of Maatta).

 

[HandshakeLine]

Oh boy, I agree with everything you said, but get ready for the abuse.

Number one rule here, thou shalt not criticize Jimmy Rutheford.

Nah, it's just your holier than thou schtick doesn't play well round here. Might be time for a gritty reboot of your brand.

 

[Giskard]

Dumo was the #2 D-Man in the '16 run and basically the #1 in the '17 run. Crap on his scoring all you want but he's literally our Hjalmarsson atm.

Agree. He struggle a little at the beginning of the 2016-17 season, but by the end he was the anchor of our defense. I love his new contract.

 

[wej20]

Is Dumo able to handle carrying his own pairing though? Because, I feel like Hammer is.

This year in the playoffs our D was a group effort. Don't know if you can put Dumo as our # 1.

He carried Ron Hainsey.

 

[Rufus]

Traded our only center prospect worth anything and a potential chance at drafting Kostin (which will likely be the new Forsberg if Reaves doesn't pan out) for a player that hits and fights - Check.

Gave a 32 year old # 6 a three year contract at 2.25 while also signing his RFAs to basically the highest amount he could in Dumo and Schultz giving us one of the most expensive defenses in the league - Check.

Did nothing to address a 3C and 4C hole that he knew he was likely going to have since July besides signing McClement to a PTO resulting in us likely moving assets for a place holder or potentially having to make a deadline deal for a 3C - Check.

Filip or Peter? Honestly, can we pump the brakes on this comparison? Yes, the trade isn't lovely, and I do agree with you about Sundqvist, but this trade isn't the egregious failure that some are making it out to be.

 

[Pens x]

Nah, it's just your holier than thou schtick doesn't play well round here. Might be time for a gritty reboot of your brand.

I still really like Rutherford. I think he's been just about flawless during his tenure here until this summer. I just don't know what happened over the last 2 months.

That's all. I can't just sit back and say oh well, he will probably fix things. This team is too good not to go all in and half ass it until the deadline. The fourth line has completely been butchered from last year. That is just more pressure on the other lines to score. That is why it is even more important to find a 3C sooner rather than later. Plus Sid and Geno have serious injury issues.

I think it's the mentality around here that is annoys me, not so much Jimmy. I just can't handle the oh well, we won the cup last year. Anything above making it to the playoffs is just gravy. Are you serious?

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

I still really like Rutherford. I think he's been just about flawless during his tenure here until this summer. I just don't know what happened over the last 2 months.

That's all. I can't just sit back and say oh well, he will probably fix things. This team is too good not to go all in and half ass it until the deadline. The fourth line has completely been butchered from last year. That is just more pressure on the other lines to score. That is why it is even more important to find a 3C sooner rather than later. Plus Sid and Geno have serious injury issues.

I think it's the mentality around here that is annoys me, not so much Jimmy. I just can't handle the oh well, we won the cup last year. Anything above making it to the playoffs is just gravy. Are you serious?

Why? Its the most likely scenario. Complaining about something that hasn't been finalized yet is not only impatient but outright silly.

This GM just steered them to back to back Stanley Cups. I think he's earned the benefit of the doubt. Especially since they are as close to a playoff lock as you get.

They have plenty of time to make the right move instead of a move just to plug a hole. Even if it takes longer than we would like for it to happen.

 

[WayneSid9987]

JR also kinda alluded to theres untouchables on his roster.
Wouldn't surprise me at all with JR's needs out in the open that other teams are trying to make JR overpay.
But JR knows things can change in a hurry on the trade front. An injury there. A coach/GM wanting a certain element and willing to trade an element in abundance they have for it, etc. etc.

Caught this article on Ribeiro:

http://plus.lapresse.ca/screens/7d1310d8-795a-4501-bc76-d9aaa61dbaad|_0.html

They interviewed his agent who said he's gonna retire and the jist of it is he's still living in Nashville but isn't training or on the ice at all. On his own without his wife and kid(s). Agent says he hasn't talked to him at all this summer and is back on the booze and Ribeiro doesn't think he has a serious problem.
You can use Google Translate if you wanna read more.

ETA: Here's a translation from the main board:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=135495311&postcount=1

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Caught this article on Ribeiro:

http://plus.lapresse.ca/screens/7d1310d8-795a-4501-bc76-d9aaa61dbaad|_0.html

They interviewed his agent who said he's gonna retire and the jist of it is he's still living in Nashville but isn't training or on the ice at all. On his own without his wife and kid(s). Agent says he hasn't talked to him at all this summer and is back on the booze and Ribeiro doesn't think he has a serious problem.
You can use Google Translate if you wanna read more.

ETA: Here's a translation from the main board:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=135495311&postcount=1

Well that's sad.

 

[Riptide]

If there is anything the Penguins should've learned from the last two playoffs is that you can win with a pretty mediocre defense core. We paid a 25 year old defensemen 4 x 6 years for 33 pts in 163 games on a team that is continuously putting up top three numbers in the league. Dumo has had some really good stretches in his career, but he is a player that doesn't push play. People make a comparison to Paul Martin, but his numbers just honestly don't reflect it.

Honestly, Dumo, Sheary, etc are being judged here based on what they did in 2015-16. The team has won back to back cups, but you would think if you learn anything about the past two years is that you tie your money up in forwards not in over paying defense. Dumo might have played the most minutes in this playoff run, but did he honestly look that good? His numbers are constantly worse when not paired with Crosby and Malkin.

Do you not see a complete comparison to Dumo as Maatta where they only succeed when they are paired with a player like Letang or Niskanen?

And I don't think it is one of those situations where we are going to vastly regret the Dumo deal, but to sit back and say Rutherford did everything he needed to in creating a chance for us to go 3 for 3 this summer and his RFA deals were home runs is just untrue.

You basically paid market rate for a player that could drastically decline over the next couple years. If you're going to judge Sheary for only producing with Crosby in the playoffs, can we at least take an honest examination at Dumo minus Letang.

1) People make the comparison to Martin, because stylistically it's very true. Both were/are excellent defensive D who can skate, pass and keep the puck out of the net. And both do so while being good positionally, depending on smart sticks and without using the body all that much. In Martin's 3 seasons here where he played a full year (73+ games), he never had more than 3 goals or more than 25 points. So while 3G/20PTs is better than 1G/16PTs, it's not by very much.

2) Define "succeed". Because we just won a second cup. If you're talking about the shots F/A, and how they can get hemmed into their own zone... I think you need to look deeper then just one player. We gave Hainsey **** all the time on here throughout the playoffs and into the summer, yet now we're knocking Dumoulin, who was Hainsey's partner? So Dumoulin can't carry Hainsey around the ice. Fortunately, to justify his contract he doesn't have to. The same to a lesser extent applies to Maatta. These guys are not Letang type players. It's fine if you want to knock these guys, but given that the best puck moving guy we could give them was a banged up Schultz and we were playing them against the other teams top lines... I'm really not sure what else you expected out of them. They're not Letang or Niskanen. Which isn't a big deal because neither are paid like it. They're getting paid like 2nd pairing guys.

3) Disagree. Alzner signed for market price at 4.625m. And while anyone "could decline over the next couple of years", it's unlikely that Dumoulin does so any time soon. As for Sheary, while it's true that he could be a one hit wonder... again, we didn't pay him like a guy that put up 53pts in 61 games. That's a 71 pt pace. Do you know who just signed a 3 yr deal that only bought up 1 UFA year and who had 69 pts? Grandlund. Guess what he got paid... 3x5.75m. And after 3 seasons of putting up 40ish pts, it's not like there's a ton to go on there. Sure it's possible that JR could have signed 1 yr deal's for both, but if both did well, both would be looking at a lot more money - especially Sheary next season. Signing them to the deal's he signed them to was a smart move, and one that helps this team out for more than just next season. Which is what his job is. I'm sure he wants to win 3/3 as much as anyone, but he too knows that he needs to ensure that he keeps the big picture in mind.

I think Rutherford in terms of how he handle those two contracts is just bizarre. It really speaks to him being an oldschool GM valuing "defensive defensemen" with size. Rutherford legitimately said to Mackey "It is important to have balance, we have guys who can put up points and having a guy that can rely on defense is important."

Go look at the drafting that has gone on the last couple years. They fit the defensive defensemen style that is honestly a terrible way to evaluate picks.

Whatever, I'd rather run four versions of Schultz on our D versus two players like Dumo and Maatta who have barely put up points recently.

Balance is stupid. I want every player to be fast and score. This isn't Nintendo hockey. It reeks of some of the issues Shero and Bylsma had constructing our line-up. It pretty much runs counterpoint to what won the Pens cup on the last two years.

This I agree with you on. You read the bio's on the guys we've drafted and while it talks about how all are good strong skaters, none are getting confused as dynamic offensive Ds. They all read like a Dumoulin or a prime Orpik. Which is fine to an extent... but it does raise a few eye brows when you consider that we have no one like Letang or Schultz in the system. Out of the 9D he's drafted there's maybe 1 who might have that style of play - maybe.

My personal take here is that he's trying to play it safe, and go with guys that have a better chance of making the NHL, even if it's in a lower role (#4, 5, 6 guys). Guys you need, guys who you want to be good and who you want to be cheap (aka ELCs or young drafted players).

I think with Sullivan's system and Letang, we honestly do not need to pay defensemen high ticket contracts and we literally have the most expensive D in the league. Do you view anyone on our team a legitimate #2 outside of Letang?

Nope. Schultz if he's having a good day. However he too is more of a #3 then a #2. However the fact that those 6 guys cost 26m doesn't bother me one bit. Every one of those contracts individually is fine. And while we've already had this discussion and disagree on it, we do have the deepest blueline 1-7 in the league. The only team that came close to being able to ice a 3rd pairing that played 18 minutes a night was Anaheim, and they just moved one of those guys to LV.

As for not needing "high ticket contracts" because we have Letang... I completely disagree with what you're trying to say.
A) The only big ticket D we have IS Letang. The next closest one is Schultz who's our Letang replacement. Which is a good thing considering the number of games Letang seems to miss on a yearly basis.
B) At some point you have to pay players what they're worth. Dumoulin and Schultz at 2.2m was a complete steal. But if you don't pay them those contracts they're gone in a few years and you're left scrambling trying to fill out the blueline - and it's not like we have a bunch of prospects knocking at the door. And it's not like we would have gotten them for significantly less had we not signed them to multi year deals. Dumo on a short contract that took him to FA would have cost at least 3-3.5m. Schultz on a 1 yr deal would have been close to 5m. So whatever savings you're hinting at are minimal at best.

 

[Riptide]

Plus Sid and Geno have serious injury issues.

The same Crosby who's played 75+ games in 4 straight seasons has "serious injury issues" ??? Seriously? Dude, get a grip.

I think it's the mentality around here that is annoys me, not so much Jimmy. I just can't handle the oh well, we won the cup last year. Anything above making it to the playoffs is just gravy. Are you serious?

You mean the part where you make up **** or how there were all these guys who were available, and how Rutherford didn't go get any of them? Despite the fact that most were wingers or made so much that it wouldn't fit in our cap structure? You mean that mentality?

If you want to *****, wait until he's done. He has the cap space, and has said he's going to fill the hole we have. Just give him some time. Jesus.

 

[Return of the Paek]

Super impressed that this thread is still going when there hasn't been ***** to talk about in over a month.

With that said, I get the sense that Hags would be moved in any trade for a 3rd-line center based on salary cap issues. I don't think Maatta can be moved based on the dearth of depth behind him.

 

[Giant Yankee Pens]

JR locks up a d core that just won back to back cups and that's a bad thing?? Hunwick replaces Daley this year and gives time for Ruh or Pooh to prove they can replace Cole next year or if they will need to pick up someone else.

Apparently we cannot make a trade during the months of Sept Oct Nov Dec Jan or Feb.

Only July Aug and Mar are allowed to make a 3C trade its a new NHL rule.

 

[Pens x]

With that said, I get the sense that Hags would be moved in any trade for a 3rd-line center based on salary cap issues. I don't think Maatta can be moved based on the dearth of depth behind him.

Yea, the lack of NHL ready prospects is a big problem. This is why Dumo and Schultz were slightly overpaid. Rutherford had no leverage with either of them. We absolutely cannot afford to trade any of our top 4 dman for a 3C unless we are receiving a decent dman in return.

No one is saying Rutherford shouldn't have re-signed the dmen. He had no choice. But that doesn't change the fact that they both received very generous contracts. Good for them, they had all of the bargaining power.

 

[Riptide]

Yea, the lack of NHL ready prospects is a big problem. This is why Dumo and Schultz were slightly overpaid. Rutherford had no leverage with either of them. We absolutely cannot afford to trade any of our top 4 dman for a 3C unless we are receiving a decent dman in return.

No one is saying Rutherford shouldn't have re-signed the dmen. He had no choice. But that doesn't change the fact that they both received very generous contracts. Good for them, they had all of the bargaining power.

Based on what exactly? I don't think you understand the term "very generous" - at least based on what they're worth or what they would have received on a shorter deal or elsewhere.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Dumoulin comparables:

Larsson: $4.167 million cap hit
Pesce: $4.025 million cap hit
Zaitsev: $4.5 million cap hit (I actually think Dumoulin is fairly better than Zaitsev)
Hjalmarsson: $4 million cap hit

In a world where Dmitri Kulikov gets $4.33 million on a semi long term deal after putting up 5 points in 47 games while being a -26, you can't complain about what Dumoulin is making.

 

[Rufus]

Dumoulin comparables:

Larsson: $4.167 million cap hit
Pesce: $4.025 million cap hit
Zaitsev: $4.5 million cap hit (I actually think Dumoulin is fairly better than Zaitsev)
Hjalmarsson: $4 million cap hit

In a world where Dmitri Kulikov gets $4.33 million on a semi long term deal after putting up 5 points in 47 games while being a -26, you can't complain about what Dumoulin is making.

Thanks for doing this. Dumoulin's contract is fair considering how well he has played for us, although he doesn't post sexy offensive stats. You don't get discounts on every player on the roster. If people wanted JR to low-ball every RFA, fine, but that's a crappy way to run business

 

[Shady Machine]

Winning a Cup isn't joyful? Not re-signing old names to keep the band together isn't joyful?

YIKES.

We won the Cup in the off season?

 

[Gurglesons]

1) People make the comparison to Martin, because stylistically it's very true. Both were/are excellent defensive D who can skate, pass and keep the puck out of the net. And both do so while being good positionally, depending on smart sticks and without using the body all that much. In Martin's 3 seasons where he played a full year (73+ games), he never had more than 3 goals or more than 25 points. So while 3G/20PTs is better than 1G/16PTs, it's not by very much.

That isn't true. He put up 30+ pts 06, 08, and 09 while playing 73+ games and had more than 3 goals multiple times in his career. He has put up more assists than Dumoulin has put up points in a season, nine times. Dumoulin has also spent the majority of his time with Letang. He also has scored 5 goals in 200 games.

2) Define "succeed". Because we just won a second cup. If you're talking about the shots F/A, and how they can get hemmed into their own zone... I think you need to look deeper then just one player. We gave Hainsey **** all the time on here throughout the playoffs and into the summer, yet now we're knocking Dumoulin, who was Hainsey's partner? So Dumoulin can't carry Hainsey around the ice. Fortunately, to justify his contract he doesn't have to. The same to a lesser extent applies to Maatta. These guys are not Letang type players. It's fine if you want to knock these guys, but given that the best puck moving guy we could give them was a banged up Schultz and we were playing them against the other teams top lines... I'm really not sure what else you expected out of them. They're not Letang or Niskanen. Which isn't a big deal because neither are paid like it. They're getting paid like 2nd pairing guys.

I just think we've some of the issues with paying a player like Maatta 4+, long term and watching what happens when they don't reach their potential. Let's be honest, we won the cup this year despite our defense and you could make that same argument last year outside of Letang. I think this is where I am even more worried about what happens with Cullen and Bonino departing, because I wonder how that effects our overall Dr. Let's also not pretend Dumo was being crucified half of last season for his vanilla play.

Disagree. Alzner signed for market price at 4.625m. And while anyone "could decline over the next couple of years", it's unlikely that Dumoulin does so any time soon. As for Sheary, while it's true that he could be a one hit wonder... again, we didn't pay him like a guy that put up 53pts in 61 games. That's a 71 pt pace. Do you know who just signed a 3 yr deal that only bought up 1 UFA year and who had 69 pts? Grandlund. Guess what he got paid... 3x5.75m. And after 3 seasons of putting up 40ish pts, it's not like there's a ton to go on there. Sure it's possible that JR could have signed 1 yr deal's for both, but if both did well, both would be looking at a lot more money - especially Sheary next season. Signing them to the deal's he signed them to was a smart move, and one that helps this team out for more than just next season. Which is what his job is. I'm sure he wants to win 3/3 as much as anyone, but he too knows that he needs to ensure that he keeps the big picture in mind.

I think you miss understood my point here. I was trying to say I think it is really strange that the franchise would be super gung ho to basically give Dumo a blank check and then turn around and try to low ball Sheary. I like our winger depth, but who is actually replacing Sheary's offense if we trade him? You have to hope either Sprong or ZAR suddenly becomes a 40-50+ pt winger. Hagelin isn't doing, Rust isn't doing it, Kuhn / Wilson aren't doing it.

This I agree with you on. You read the bio's on the guys we've drafted and while it talks about how all are good strong skaters, none are getting confused as dynamic offensive Ds. They all read like a Dumoulin or a prime Orpik. Which is fine to an extent... but it does raise a few eye brows when you consider that we have no one like Letang or Schultz in the system. Out of the 9D he's drafted there's maybe 1 who might have that style of play - maybe.

My personal take here is that he's trying to play it safe, and go with guys that have a better chance of making the NHL, even if it's in a lower role (#4, 5, 6 guys). Guys you need, guys who you want to be good and who you want to be cheap (aka ELCs or young drafted players).

The issue is players that play defensive games in junior generally aren't safe bets. Usually they don't make the league. Isn't it pretty telling that Rutherford's two biggest risks in drafting, Sprong and Kapanen look the most effective?

Also, if you are going to pay that much money and term for a D, shouldn't you be looking to take risks that hopefully pan out in a year or two. I just completely disagree with "building our picks", right now the Pens should be drafting players that are hopefully roster eligible in two years maximum.

Nope. Schultz if he's having a good day. However he too is more of a #3 then a #2. However the fact that those 6 guys cost 26m doesn't bother me one bit. Every one of those contracts individually is fine. And while we've already had this discussion and disagree on it, we do have the deepest blueline 1-7 in the league. The only team that came close to being able to ice a 3rd pairing that played 18 minutes a night was Anaheim, and they just moved one of those guys to LV.

Yeah, I think we have different feelings on this. I would argue Carolina, Nashville, Columbus, Calgary, and Anaheim all have more effective and deeper bluelines.

As for not needing "high ticket contracts" because we have Letang... I completely disagree with what you're trying to say.
A) The only big ticket D we have IS Letang. The next closest one is Schultz who's our Letang replacement. Which is a good thing considering the number of games Letang seems to miss on a yearly basis.
B) At some point you have to pay players what they're worth. Dumoulin and Schultz at 2.2m was a complete steal. But if you don't pay them those contracts they're gone in a few years and you're left scrambling trying to fill out the blueline - and it's not like we have a bunch of prospects knocking at the door. And it's not like we would have gotten them for significantly less had we not signed them to multi year deals. Dumo on a short contract that took him to FA would have cost at least 3-3.5m. Schultz on a 1 yr deal would have been close to 5m. So whatever savings you're hinting at are minimal at best.

I totally tried to make the point that my issue really isn't with either contract as much as the fact as it is with both of them and especially the term on Dumo. If you could save a million or a million and a half on these two players and only have them for the next two or three years, it may have given you a chance to sign a more effective 4C. Basically, spend less money on the D and try to build back what you had with Cullen and Bonino, because I think it is pretty obvious the Penguins have proven you can win the cup with one elite D and a bunch of 17 - 19 minute guys.

Like I said, I really like Dumo. It just seems like a risky contract after the one Rutherford already gave Maatta in my opinion. If you trade Maatta, you can probably say that it allows you to have the Dumo contract, but next year and the year after the money tied up in our D is definitely going to effect us resigning players like Horny, Rust, Guentzel, etc and I don't think it is worth that.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yea, the lack of NHL ready prospects is a big problem. This is why Dumo and Schultz were slightly overpaid. Rutherford had no leverage with either of them. We absolutely cannot afford to trade any of our top 4 dman for a 3C unless we are receiving a decent dman in return.

No one is saying Rutherford shouldn't have re-signed the dmen. He had no choice. But that doesn't change the fact that they both received very generous contracts. Good for them, they had all of the bargaining power.

This is the honest truth really. It is hard to fault the contracts, because if you don't give them to Schultz and Dumo who else are you going to give them to aside from a UFA you're probably paying the same amount for. You just figured, for such a "home run" summer he would've gotten at least a minor discount. Especially, since they both "wanted to stay here".