The Roster Thread, Summer 2024

[HogtownSabresfan]

I absolutely think it was Adams's call to largely stand pat at the TDL.

It doesn't cost a lot cash-wise to make moves at the TDL. And if they make the playoffs, they get a lot of money through selling playoff tickets.

If you think every penny-pinching move is the GM's call, I don't know what to say. At the very least, $23 million of cap room could have been used to stockpile picks, which could have been flipped for players and depth. This has not happened at deadlines. It costs real money. This is four straight years of being well under the cap. Skinner was bought out to make room for what exactly... to save money. They saved $7 M in real cash. Pegula thinks a scoreboard and a roof that doesn't leak are his biggest concessions to the fan base. Every team has a modern scoreboard and a roof that doesn't leak. The Sabres are missing a top 6 forward. We go into a 14th year of no playoffs with a roster that betting odds say is in the bottom third of the league to make playoffs, but we have $8 M in cap room. Sure, that's all, Kevyn. We miss playoffs, and Adams will take the fall for Pags frugalness, and some other inexperienced dupe will take the job.

 

[TehDoak]

I think the last decade of Sabres hockey have shown that AHL and Europe players do not simply cut into a lineup as a quality 4th liner. We've seen this team go down that that path before and the lack of investment into the the bottom six and 4th line has been a talking point of this team for a while as a reason for our lack of success.

I think Adams has missed opportunities to address weaknesses in this team over the past several years. However, I dont think "there are quality 4th liners all over the AHL and Europe" is a fair statement. there is a reason these types of players are moved at the deadline or signed for premiums.

That's on our management team(s) more than anything.

4th line is the easiest thing to fix in season if its not working. 4th liners are moved pretty frequently and easy to acquire, either via waivers or with mid/late round picks. Having the best 4th line in the NHL isn't going to make a big difference in where you finish at the end of the year. It's typically something teams will beef up going into the playoffs where match-ups and intimidation over a 7 game series matter more than they do over the course of an 82 game season

It's like tuning the engine performance on a car. It'll help you get a little more out of what you have. But no matter how much you tune your honda civic, you aren't beating a tesla model S off the line.

That is why it's weird that people are holding up the retool'd 4th line as a big accomplishment. It's not. It just seems like a lot because of how little Adams has done previously. The issues in our top 6 forward group and top 4 d-men that were unaddressed will have a much bigger impact than our shiny new 4th line. We fixed a micro issue while leaving many macro issues unresolved.

 

[HogtownSabresfan]

I dont disagree about savoie or his durability my issue isn't with trading him the player...its the mismanagement of the asset he became. We don't need every 1st round pick to be a lotto ticket like savoie was. Its okay to make a trade to improve the team NOW. Maybe adams doesn't have that ability with other GMs idk.

Making the savoie pick just to have it lose that much value in like 2 years when it could've been used more usefully is my point.

Im not hell bent on savoie the player at all. Kinds the opposite I was meh on him and im just as meh on McLeod

Total mismanagement but it was driven by salary concerns. Basically, Savoie wasn't going to make our roster better this year. We have a player who will make the roster better, and at $2.1 M, it is a great value contract. The question remains: why does a team with $8 M in cap room need to trade prospects for great-value contracts? We know why. There is an internal cap in Buffalo. the real cap is meaningless.

 

[Jim Bob]

If you think every penny-pinching move is the GM's call, I don't know what to say. At the very least, $23 million of cap room could have been used to stockpile picks, which could have been flipped for players and depth. This has not happened at deadlines. It costs real money. This is four straight years of being well under the cap. Skinner was bought out to make room for what exactly... to save money. They saved $7 M in real cash. Pegula thinks a scoreboard and a roof that doesn't leak are his biggest concessions to the fan base. Every team has a modern scoreboard and a roof that doesn't leak. The Sabres are missing a top 6 forward. We go into a 14th year of no playoffs with a roster that betting odds say is in the bottom third of the league to make playoffs, but we have $8 M in cap room. Sure, that's all, Kevyn. We miss playoffs, and Adams will take the fall for Pags frugalness, and some other inexperienced dupe will take the job.

If you think every time Adams has been overly cautious and not added to the roster is Pegula's fault, I don't know what to tell you.

Adams said why he didn't make any meaningful moves at that deadline. Do you think he was up there lying to the media?

 

[TehDoak]

If you think every time Adams has been overly cautious and not added to the roster is Pegula's fault, I don't know what to tell you.

Adams said why he didn't make any meaningful moves at that deadline. Do you think he was up there lying to the media?

I think we all know Adams won't say a bad word about the Pegulas. And to be fair, no GM will talk shit about their owners. But Adams will never say the word budget or imply that he's constrained in anyway, even though its obvious the team has been on a budget since the pandemic.

If you have ever worked at a place that is on tight margins vs a place that prints money, the difference in being able to do things is quite telling. Having your boss give you his corporate card and say 'book what you need, keep it under $X' vs getting every item scrutinized under a microscope. Eventually, you know just not to ask.

Did Adams have hockey reasons for not adding? Sure.

Was the budget a factor? Of course it was. But Adams will never say it. He's not 'lying' to the. media, but anything that suggests or implies he has limited resources will never be uttered by him.

 

[CowbellConray]

That's on our management team(s) more than anything.

4th line is the easiest thing to fix in season if its not working. 4th liners are moved pretty frequently and easy to acquire, either via waivers or with mid/late round picks. Having the best 4th line in the NHL isn't going to make a big difference in where you finish at the end of the year. It's typically something teams will beef up going into the playoffs where match-ups and intimidation over a 7 game series matter more than they do over the course of an 82 game season

It's like tuning the engine performance on a car. It'll help you get a little more out of what you have. But no matter how much you tune your honda civic, you aren't beating a tesla model S off the line.

That is why it's weird that people are holding up the retool'd 4th line as a big accomplishment. It's not. It just seems like a lot because of how little Adams has done previously. The issues in our top 6 forward group and top 4 d-men that were unaddressed will have a much bigger impact than our shiny new 4th line. We fixed a micro issue while leaving many macro issues unresolved.

I just dont agree with what you are saying here about the ease at brining in a quality 4th line.

1) You say 4th liners are easy to acquire via waivers. Not 1 playoff team acquired a 4th liner via waiver last year. In fact, only 1 or 2 quality 4th liners (as in, they are NHL caliber) were even acquired via waivers across the league. So you can't just bank that waivers will provide talent

2) Trades in season for 4th line talent just isn't a frequent situation, unless it's the trade deadline. There weren't any trades in the NHL last year from October through January for any 4th line guys. Again, in the offseason? Sure - which is what we saw Adams do this year with Beck. Seeing guys move during the season (other than the deadline?), not really.

3) I think it's fair that a 4th line isn't the biggest reason a team makes the playoffs or not, but a truly capable 4th line provides lineup depth that is 100% crucial for allowing top 6 forwards to play offensive matchups to win games. We would need to truly break down rosters across the league, but there is a reason teams who make the playoffs tend to be 2 things - 1) Healthy and 2) Deep in NHL talent. If we want to dive into this more, I'm happy to. I just dont want to put the effort in if it's not going to be taken with any seriousness.

4) A retooled 4th line is a success for some because it is a success. I dont think I've seen anyone say with a new 4th line we are a premier team. I've seen people say it will draw defensive matchups away from our offensive players, and the types of guys we brought in will lay the body and help set an overall tone. Is that quantifiable? Maybe not. But creating a team identity is something that we've seen leaders and winners across the NHL express as a positive for their success in the past.

5) I dont disagree that there are still holes. I'm just not going to undersell adding 3-4 quality bottom six players to this roster when we had Okposo/Girgs/Jost/Olofsson/Krebs/Robinson ALL play 40+ games each on this team last year. The new guys brought in are 100% an improvement from that group last year.

 

[Jim Bob]

I think we all know Adams won't say a bad word about the Pegulas. And to be fair, no GM will talk shit about their owners. But Adams will never say the word budget or imply that he's constrained in anyway, even though its obvious the team has been on a budget since the pandemic.

If you have ever worked at a place that is on tight margins vs a place that prints money, the difference in being able to do things is quite telling. Having your boss give you his corporate card and say 'book what you need, keep it under $X' vs getting every item scrutinized under a microscope. Eventually, you know just not to ask.

Did Adams have hockey reasons for not adding? Sure.

Was the budget a factor? Of course it was. But Adams will never say it. He's not 'lying' to the. media, but anything that suggests or implies he has limited resources will never be uttered by him.

They added Greenway and Stillman. So, you cannot argue that he couldn't make any moves due to Pegula being unwilling to add anything.

The problem is that Adams didn't make the right moves.

That continued last offseason. And we shall see about this offseason.

 

[TehDoak]

I just dont agree with what you are saying here about the ease at brining in a quality 4th line.

1) You say 4th liners are easy to acquire via waivers. Not 1 playoff team acquired a 4th liner via waiver last year. In fact, only 1 or 2 quality 4th liners (as in, they are NHL caliber) were even acquired via waivers across the league. So you can't just bank that waivers will provide talent

The predators picked up Foudy and Fagemo via waivers.

2) Trades in season for 4th line talent just isn't a frequent situation, unless it's the trade deadline. There weren't any trades in the NHL last year from October through January for any 4th line guys. Again, in the offseason? Sure - which is what we saw Adams do this year with Beck. Seeing guys move during the season (other than the deadline?), not really.

You are conflating a lack of moves with the liquidity of 4th line players.

Teams 4th lines in season usually aren't purposefully built as the year wears on. There are a confluence of issues, including cap issues, injuries, who can clear waivers and who can't. Its often a mismash of career 4th liners, guys being demoted, young guys learning, etc. For a good part of the season, its a misfit line.

To go back to my original point, teams for the most part don't care about their 4th line much until the playoffs approach.

Usually if teams are adding a 4th liner before the trade deadline, its because of injuries.

3) I think it's fair that a 4th line isn't the biggest reason a team makes the playoffs or not, but a truly capable 4th line provides lineup depth that is 100% crucial for allowing top 6 forwards to play offensive matchups to win games. We would need to truly break down rosters across the league, but there is a reason teams who make the playoffs tend to be 2 things - 1) Healthy and 2) Deep in NHL talent. If we want to dive into this more, I'm happy to. I just dont want to put the effort in if it's not going to be taken with any seriousness.

This is more of a team construction argument with roles. In an ideal world, you are correct, you have a great 4th line that can take defensive pressure off of your top 9 forwards. In reality, the 4th line is usually used as a top 9 overflow/place to stash utility players (i.e. a faceoff guy, etc).

4) A retooled 4th line is a success for some because it is a success. I dont think I've seen anyone say with a new 4th line we are a premier team. I've seen people say it will draw defensive matchups away from our offensive players, and the types of guys we brought in will lay the body and help set an overall tone. Is that quantifiable? Maybe not. But creating a team identity is something that we've seen leaders and winners across the NHL express as a positive for their success in the past.

5) I dont disagree that there are still holes. I'm just not going to undersell adding 3-4 quality bottom six players to this roster when we had Okposo/Girgs/Jost/Olofsson/Krebs/Robinson ALL play 40+ games each on this team last year. The new guys brought in are 100% an improvement from that group last year.

The issue is, we had a good 4th line last year. Grigs-Krebs-Okposo were fine in maintaining posession and providing defensive starts.

Did we upgrade on them? Yes

Will it matter if the rest of the team isn't good?

No

 

[HogtownSabresfan]

I think we all know Adams won't say a bad word about the Pegulas. And to be fair, no GM will talk shit about their owners. But Adams will never say the word budget or imply that he's constrained in anyway, even though its obvious the team has been on a budget since the pandemic.

If you have ever worked at a place that is on tight margins vs a place that prints money, the difference in being able to do things is quite telling. Having your boss give you his corporate card and say 'book what you need, keep it under $X' vs getting every item scrutinized under a microscope. Eventually, you know just not to ask.

Did Adams have hockey reasons for not adding? Sure.

Was the budget a factor? Of course it was. But Adams will never say it. He's not 'lying' to the. media, but anything that suggests or implies he has limited resources will never be uttered by him.

Kevyn Adams has GM job no other team in the NHL would have come close to giving him. He would have struggled to land an AGM job. I don't blame GMKA. He has to carry water for these owners; they gave him one of 32 coveted GM jobs in the league. When he gets up there and says he has all the resources he needs, anyone not taking that with a grain of salt could be sold anything. It is mind-boggling that we are way under the cap for a fourth year, and people still don't see this. The ranks of Sabres fans buying into shrink every year.

 

[CowbellConray]

The predators picked up Foudy and Fagemo via waivers.

1) Foudy and Fagemo played a combined 16 games for Nashville and were both waived again. They didnt contribute and have not shown to be good quality 4th line players. Both signed NHL minimum deals this offseason. They aren't quality 4th liners, which your original statement was that you could easily obtain quality 4th line players via waivers. It didn't happen last year.

You are conflating a lack of moves with the liquidity of 4th line players.

Teams 4th lines in season usually aren't purposefully built as the year wears on. There are a confluence of issues, including cap issues, injuries, who can clear waivers and who can't. Its often a mismash of career 4th liners, guys being demoted, young guys learning, etc. For a good part of the season, its a misfit line.

To go back to my original point, teams for the most part don't care about their 4th line much until the playoffs approach.

Usually if teams are adding a 4th liner before the trade deadline, its because of injuries.

2) Of course there are a set of issues that limit the continuity of a line. That could be said for most positions on a team. I dont see the problem with having confidence in a true 4th line going into the season as opposed to a misfit line. There is always risk/potential of having to adjust during the season, but that's the case for every position on a team.

You original point was that a 4th line can be constructed via trade quite easily. "4th line is the easiest thing to fix in season if its not working. 4th liners are moved pretty frequently and easy to acquire, either via waivers or with mid/late round picks." I showed that during the offseason you can retool a 4th line, or during the deadline. However, from October to January, you are stuck with the roster talent you have in 99% of cases.

A 4th line is the easiest to "hide". They dont play a ton of minutes, you can put someone there to take a few shifts and put more responsibility on the rest of the lineup. I don't disagree. What I'm saying is if you have a great 4th line, that line will 1) Play more and keep your stars fresher throughout the season 2) Take d-zone draws and flip the ice without having to have your stars do it 3) Set a tone that even "successful" Sabres 4th lines in the past 5 years haven't been able to do.

"Dont care" and "Live with" are two different terms to me. You say teams dont care about the 4th line, I say teams live with their roster impacts on a 4th line until the deadline. Maybe we are saying the same thing...

This is more of a team construction argument with roles. In an ideal world, you are correct, you have a great 4th line that can take defensive pressure off of your top 9 forwards. In reality, the 4th line is usually used as a top 9 overflow/place to stash utility players (i.e. a faceoff guy, etc).

Why can't we support the notion of going into the season in an "ideal" state because Adams has in fact for the first time provided a solid foundation of a true 4th line that can take pressure off of the rest of the forwards? You whole point is that they dont matter, and I'm saying that as of right now, going into the season, we have the potential of a 4th line that actually will matter

The issue is, we had a good 4th line last year. Grigs-Krebs-Okposo were fine in maintaining posession and providing defensive starts.

Did we upgrade on them? Yes

Will it matter if the rest of the team isn't good?

No

Our 4th line was OK last year, but wasn't really deployed as a true 4th line (in the way I'd like them to be). 50% o-zone starts, and not nearly as physical as I think they should be. That also falls on coaching, which is why I'm happy Ruff is here instead of Don. I say that, because these situations are nuanced, and there are tons of variables that truly determine effectiveness.

You can make your statement here about any line or group. If we brought in a new superstar, could I say we upgraded the top line, but it wont matter if goaltending doesn't hold? Of course I can.

It's totally fair to say this team still has areas that it can improve. Hell, you can say there are areas the team SHOULD have improved. But it's not weird (your word) for people to acknowledge where the team HAS improved. Maybe it's enough improvement to make the playoffs, maybe it's not. But it's not "weird" to be happy that the team has put itself in an "ideal state" for their 4th line going into the year for the first time since the LOG line had its run

 

[SabresFanNorthPortFL]

In 22-23, 13 NHL teams took in over $200 million in revenue.

Buffalo, San Jose, Ottawa, Arizona and Columbus are the bottom 5 in revenue generation, and they are all below $160 million.

Bottom 5 in revenue, and pretty consistently the 5 worst teams in the league.

Yeah, he’s a billionaire but you guys keep thinking he’s gonna just eat $40 million a year in revenue difference? I get that chicken/egg scenario but the realty is this team needs to take a major step forward internally before the bottom line is moved.

Reality.

To me this year depends on:

1. UPL playing like most of last year.
2. Dahlin at Norris level.
3. Quinn
4. Tage, Tuch & Cozens playing constantly.
5. Power taking a step forward.
and most importantly…
6. Coaching.

I’m not that worried because…

1. UPL has been developed correctly and he’s hitting the right goalie age, his prime. Chances he repeats? 80%
2. Dahlin has been playing top 10 for a while and he’s hitting prime age so again 80%.
3. Quinn. When the kids on the ice, he’s been a difference maker. All comes down to health. If he’s healthy, he’s a top line player. Can’t give him more than 50%.
4. Tage n Tuch should be better after nursing injuries pretty much all year. Cozens wasn’t the same player after the fight. But no reason to believe these three won’t step up…80%
5. Power. Kids a #1 pick, 3rd year, he should take a step forward especially because of……..6. Coach.

This is going to be a vastly different team with Ruff at the helm. Love him, or wanted someone else, Ruff is a legitimate NHL coach…..game plans, in game tweaks, accountability, etc….this will be the first time Sabres grown players will not be coddled….

The money will change with the performance…I’m looking forward to this year!!!

 

[TehDoak]

1) Foudy and Fagemo played a combined 16 games for Nashville and were both waived again. They didnt contribute and have not shown to be good quality 4th line players. Both signed NHL minimum deals this offseason. They aren't quality 4th liners, which your original statement was that you could easily obtain quality 4th line players via waivers. It didn't happen last year.

2) Of course there are a set of issues that limit the continuity of a line. That could be said for most positions on a team. I dont see the problem with having confidence in a true 4th line going into the season as opposed to a misfit line. There is always risk/potential of having to adjust during the season, but that's the case for every position on a team.

You original point was that a 4th line can be constructed via trade quite easily. "4th line is the easiest thing to fix in season if its not working. 4th liners are moved pretty frequently and easy to acquire, either via waivers or with mid/late round picks." I showed that during the offseason you can retool a 4th line, or during the deadline. However, from October to January, you are stuck with the roster talent you have in 99% of cases.

You can absolutely construct a 4th line via trade/waivers in season....if you want to. The core issue is teams typically already have their guys. The other issue is the difference between a bad 4th line and a top tier 4th line in the standings isn't a ton. So teams will make do with what they have rather than spend assets to fix an issue that can be band aided.

A 4th line is the easiest to "hide". They dont play a ton of minutes, you can put someone there to take a few shifts and put more responsibility on the rest of the lineup. I don't disagree. What I'm saying is if you have a great 4th line, that line will 1) Play more and keep your stars fresher throughout the season 2) Take d-zone draws and flip the ice without having to have your stars do it 3) Set a tone that even "successful" Sabres 4th lines in the past 5 years haven't been able to do.

"Dont care" and "Live with" are two different terms to me. You say teams dont care about the 4th line, I say teams live with their roster impacts on a 4th line until the deadline. Maybe we are saying the same thing...


Why can't we support the notion of going into the season in an "ideal" state because Adams has in fact for the first time provided a solid foundation of a true 4th line that can take pressure off of the rest of the forwards? You whole point is that they dont matter, and I'm saying that as of right now, going into the season, we have the potential of a 4th line that actually will matter


Our 4th line was OK last year, but wasn't really deployed as a true 4th line (in the way I'd like them to be). 50% o-zone starts, and not nearly as physical as I think they should be. That also falls on coaching, which is why I'm happy Ruff is here instead of Don. I say that, because these situations are nuanced, and there are tons of variables that truly determine effectiveness.

You can make your statement here about any line or group. If we brought in a new superstar, could I say we upgraded the top line, but it wont matter if goaltending doesn't hold? Of course I can.

It's totally fair to say this team still has areas that it can improve. Hell, you can say there are areas the team SHOULD have improved. But it's not weird (your word) for people to acknowledge where the team HAS improved. Maybe it's enough improvement to make the playoffs, maybe it's not. But it's not "weird" to be happy that the team has put itself in an "ideal state" for their 4th line going into the year for the first time since the LOG line had its run

I'm curious if anyone has done a study comparing the top possession 4th line and the worst possession 4th lines and figured out the effective WAR differences. I imagine it's not much, but happily to be proven wrong if someone can run the numbers.

I would describe the differences in this year and last year's line up is there is more utility to the bottom six in that the coach can use in different situations. In theory at least, that should lead to more wins if used properly.

But, talking about Macro problems, is the utility that we added from the 4th line and McLeod going to offset the offense lost by moving Mittelstadt and not replacing his offense.

 

[BFLO]

Dude, you are obsessed. Let it go. The Canucks reference was, like in have said three times now, just a random thought to bring hope to this board. I could have and probably should have used one of 20 other team examples where teams made significant strides after just adding role players in an off-season.

You are literally trying to decipher the meaning of a post that had no forethought and creating this gargantuan strawman for some God unknown reason. Move on.

sorry man, I was honestly just trying to infuse some hope to the offseason forum, but the Adams haters are out to crush any positive vibes before they can start to grow.

Post anything positive and they will bury you in pages of semantics to stop the good vibes from spreading.

2024-25 is going to be a good season. Don't let the talk of the insignificance of the offseason moves detract from what is going on here.. A lot of very solid changes were made and this roster is now nicely balanced.

This team is young and hungry and there is a comradery among the players in that dressingroom - they are going to go to battle for each other. This is the foundation of a good team.

This is peak irony.

You could have simply said that you left out Hronek for no reason in your first reply to me and the conversation would have ended there.

None of this derail takes place without you repeatedly attempting to bury me with pages of semantics incorrectly claiming that I was outside the timeline.



Regarding the roster. I like the players that Adams has added this off season. But I still think we have a big hole in the top 4D where a defensive specialist (preferably right handed) should be. And overall the defense is imbalanced between PMD/Defensive specialists, and in handedness (although handedness is much less important).

Our pairs look something like this:

L PMD Byram/L PMD Dahlin
L PMD Power/L DS Samuelsson
R PMD Joki/R PMD Clifton

That's not balanced well.

 

[CowbellConray]

You can absolutely construct a 4th line via trade/waivers in season....if you want to. The core issue is teams typically already have their guys. The other issue is the difference between a bad 4th line and a top tier 4th line in the standings isn't a ton. So teams will make do with what they have rather than spend assets to fix an issue that can be band aided.




I'm curious if anyone has done a study comparing the top possession 4th line and the worst possession 4th lines and figured out the effective WAR differences. I imagine it's not much, but happily to be proven wrong if someone can run the numbers.

I would describe the differences in this year and last year's line up is there is more utility to the bottom six in that the coach can use in different situations. In theory at least, that should lead to more wins if used properly.

But, talking about Macro problems, is the utility that we added from the 4th line and McLeod going to offset the offense lost by moving Mittelstadt and not replacing his offense.

I'll have to check to see if there is any WAR analysis for those types of 4th lines. Maybe something I'll do tonight. There is so much to it though with deployment usages, it may not be incredibly accurate.

I'll take a look

I do agree with you that this roster is higher in utility as opposed to the previous two years. Hopefully that does lead to more wins

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

I'll have to check to see if there is any WAR analysis for those types of 4th lines. Maybe something I'll do tonight. There is so much to it though with deployment usages, it may not be incredibly accurate.

I'll take a look

I do agree with you that this roster is higher in utility as opposed to the previous two years. Hopefully that does lead to more wins

I find that WAR analysis tells you incorrect things when looking at 4th lines and defensemen who don't get special teams time. Maybe it's just me, but the numbers rarely match the eye test like they do for top-9 forwards and top pairing dmen.

 

[DJN21]

Total mismanagement but it was driven by salary concerns. Basically, Savoie wasn't going to make our roster better this year. We have a player who will make the roster better, and at $2.1 M, it is a great value contract. The question remains: why does a team with $8 M in cap room need to trade prospects for great-value contracts? We know why. There is an internal cap in Buffalo. the real cap is meaningless.

I honestly think Adams just doesnt have enough respect league wide to pull off a trade that makes sense...he got bent simple as that. Doesn't matter to me if Savoie booms or busts, hopefully because hes on my team mcleod does fine but still wont change my stance that we got absolutely bent on this trade.

 

[DJN21]

They added Greenway and Stillman. So, you cannot argue that he couldn't make any moves due to Pegula being unwilling to add anything.

The problem is that Adams didn't make the right moves.

That continued last offseason. And we shall see about this offseason.

there's an odd layer of irony in that Adams big move was for Stillman just to watch Tanner Jeannot cave his face in and never again play a meaningful minute for the team lol. Like guys....this is us lol this is how laughable we are...

 

[Irie]

This is peak irony.

You could have simply said that you left out Hronek for no reason in your first reply to me and the conversation would have ended there.

None of this derail takes place without you repeatedly attempting to bury me with pages of semantics incorrectly claiming that I was outside the timeline.



Regarding the roster. I like the players that Adams has added this off season. But I still think we have a big hole in the top 4D where a defensive specialist (preferably right handed) should be. And overall the defense is imbalanced between PMD/Defensive specialists, and in handedness (although handedness is much less important).

Our pairs look something like this:

L PMD Byram/L PMD Dahlin
L PMD Power/L DS Samuelsson
R PMD Joki/R PMD Clifton

That's not balanced well.

You are still on this strawman?

Listen. I have repeatedly ignored your arguments and tried to avoid debating them with you because your arguments are all just semantics of a tangent that was totally irrelevant to my post.

Example - The Hronek issue you keep bringing up. Hronek was a nearly identical acquisition to Byram. Both young D with similar junior careers, and similar upside at the time of the trade, and if the question was put to a poll on the main boards, who was better at the time of the Hronek trade, it would most definitely come back as Byram. Your argument that they are different because Mitts was traded for Byram and Hronek for futures is completely false. The Canucks trade their 31 goal and 54 point in 49 games captain and "better than Mitts" center named Bo Horvat for the Isles pick which Allvin then flipped for Hronek.

But despite these being facts, they are totally irrelevant to the discussion I was having with Doak about the offseason. Had i written coaching system instead of coach, I guess that may have satisfied your requirements for my example to not be pedantically scrutinized?

And like I said before, worrying about handedness for D is only a problem if you dont have the horses that can play on their offhand. Ray Bourque played on his offhand more often than not. As did Bobby Orr. Dahlin and Sammy both may be better on their offhands, and many other star defensemen spent half their careers playing their offhand side, Pronger comes to mind off the top of my head.

As for balance, Dahlin and Byram on PP1 and Power and a forward on PP2 , with Sammy, Clifton on PK1 and Dahlin and Joker on PK2 may work, but Ruff has several options and everything may be turned upside down once his schemes are introduced and different players may show chemistry with other partners that we have yet to see - that is what camp is for.

 

[Matt Ress]

This thread is like arguing with the wall about what shade of green it is. Probably for everyone.

 

[Nevins]

Personally, I have mixed feelings about the changes to the Sabres roster. I like Laferty and Malenstyn but I would have preferred a power forward instead of Kubel. The Zucker signing is absurd and there were more interesting players. McLeod is ok but Savoie will probably be better. Adding a defensive physical defenseman was a necessity....
Reimer will give Levi time to mature.I give a C+

 

[TehDoak]

To me, the biggest questions of the year are:

1. What are the defense pairs and can they create an effective 2nd pair?

I think Dahlin can effective play his left side and either Power/Byram will be a fine LH partner for him.

The question is,
- Can Power/Byram anchor the 2nd pair
- Is there an effective partner on the right side for either of them?

I'd like to see them try Samuelsson-Clifton for the bottom pair, but, the only one stapled to the bottom pair is Clifton right now.

2. What is the middle six forward group look like. I feel the top line and the 4th line are reasonably set. The question is, how do they make the group of:

Cozens, Quinn, Benson, Zucker, McLeod, Greenway work? Is there any rochester forward that can move their way up and how does that effect the 4th line (specifically wondering if Greenway moves down or is just moved).

3. How is goaltending going to be handled? Will common sense prevail (with Levi getting significant AHL time) or will they try to develop Levi by having him start 30 games in the NHL and on the bench most nights?

4. Can Appert fix the power play? Or are we going to suffer through us playing 'watch them force it to tage again' on every PP?

 

[Dubi Doo]

I just dont agree with what you are saying here about the ease at brining in a quality 4th line.

1) You say 4th liners are easy to acquire via waivers. Not 1 playoff team acquired a 4th liner via waiver last year. In fact, only 1 or 2 quality 4th liners (as in, they are NHL caliber) were even acquired via waivers across the league. So you can't just bank that waivers will provide talent

2) Trades in season for 4th line talent just isn't a frequent situation, unless it's the trade deadline. There weren't any trades in the NHL last year from October through January for any 4th line guys. Again, in the offseason? Sure - which is what we saw Adams do this year with Beck. Seeing guys move during the season (other than the deadline?), not really.

3) I think it's fair that a 4th line isn't the biggest reason a team makes the playoffs or not, but a truly capable 4th line provides lineup depth that is 100% crucial for allowing top 6 forwards to play offensive matchups to win games. We would need to truly break down rosters across the league, but there is a reason teams who make the playoffs tend to be 2 things - 1) Healthy and 2) Deep in NHL talent. If we want to dive into this more, I'm happy to. I just dont want to put the effort in if it's not going to be taken with any seriousness.

4) A retooled 4th line is a success for some because it is a success. I dont think I've seen anyone say with a new 4th line we are a premier team. I've seen people say it will draw defensive matchups away from our offensive players, and the types of guys we brought in will lay the body and help set an overall tone. Is that quantifiable? Maybe not. But creating a team identity is something that we've seen leaders and winners across the NHL express as a positive for their success in the past.

5) I dont disagree that there are still holes. I'm just not going to undersell adding 3-4 quality bottom six players to this roster when we had Okposo/Girgs/Jost/Olofsson/Krebs/Robinson ALL play 40+ games each on this team last year. The new guys brought in are 100% an improvement from that group last year.

We also didn't just sign run of the mill 4th liners. 2/3 of the 4th line did the heavy lifting for a poorly constructed Caps team to make the playoffs, and the C we got has shown he's a good 4th liner. I'm also not sure we've seen Beck's full potential. I think he could be a good 3rd liner in time and may relegate Greenway to the 4th line as the season progresses.

 

[TageGod]

Personally, I have mixed feelings about the changes to the Sabres roster. I like Laferty and Malenstyn but I would have preferred a power forward instead of Kubel. The Zucker signing is absurd and there were more interesting players. McLeod is ok but Savoie will probably be better. Adding a defensive physical defenseman was a necessity....
Reimer will give Levi time to mature.I give a C+

Didn't get a top 6 so he gets a C. Long and short of the offseason. Top 6 would be an A. They don't need any D.

 

[Jim Bob]

To me, the biggest questions of the year are:

1. What are the defense pairs and can they create an effective 2nd pair?

I think Dahlin can effective play his left side and either Power/Byram will be a fine LH partner for him.

The question is,
- Can Power/Byram anchor the 2nd pair
- Is there an effective partner on the right side for either of them?

I'd like to see them try Samuelsson-Clifton for the bottom pair, but, the only one stapled to the bottom pair is Clifton right now.

2. What is the middle six forward group look like. I feel the top line and the 4th line are reasonably set. The question is, how do they make the group of:

Cozens, Quinn, Benson, Zucker, McLeod, Greenway work? Is there any rochester forward that can move their way up and how does that effect the 4th line (specifically wondering if Greenway moves down or is just moved).

3. How is goaltending going to be handled? Will common sense prevail (with Levi getting significant AHL time) or will they try to develop Levi by having him start 30 games in the NHL and on the bench most nights?

4. Can Appert fix the power play? Or are we going to suffer through us playing 'watch them force it to tage again' on every PP?

I would order them differently, but those are 4 of the big questions.

I would also add:

5. What impact will Ruff have when it comes to this team being more consistently good despite having one of the youngest and least experienced lineups in the NHL yet again?

6. Can Thompson and Cozens be more like their 2022-23 versions we saw than the 2023-24 versions?

 

[Mattilaus]

This thread is like arguing with the wall about what shade of green it is. Probably for everyone.

Don't worry, soon we will have hockey, then we can argue about individual games and line combos instead.