The Roster Thread, Summer 2024

[sabremike]

The big lesson people should have learned from the playoffs is that the roster isn't the problem and in large part really has never been THE problem. The problem has been the organizational incompetence and in particular the horrible coaching and coaching. The Sabres haven't had a single competent professional coach since, well, Lindy.

 

[Beerz]

The big lesson people should have learned from the playoffs is that the roster isn't the problem and in large part really has never been THE problem. The problem has been the organizational incompetence and in particular the horrible coaching and coaching. The Sabres haven't had a single competent professional coach since, well, Lindy.

It was both. You don't win with so many non NHL players on the roster coupled with a regression of your top players.

 

[sabremike]

It was both. You don't win with so many non NHL players on the roster coupled with a regression of your top players.

We are talking in terms of the entire decade of shit and not just last season. I would also be willing to say last season being total shit had lots to do with the coach and staff who had no business having those jobs at this level, if they had sacked them all at the New Year and hired a competent Lindy type and staff they make the playoffs. If the team had even an average PP they would've made it and that was all on Matt Ellis being completely incompetent at his job.

 

[Ace]

You can’t run out the bottom six we did. I don’t care who the coach is. The top six fell back and we were dead. No depth. No one hard to play against. Nothing. Just a mix of bullshit.

Been bad for a long time. Think about it. The top six all had career years two seasons ago. And they still couldn’t make the top half of the league. All those seasons trying to pull up a bunch of dead weight. Drowned

A third line of leftover pieces that never fit together. A fourth line that could keep their head around sea level but wasn’t going to score and certainly wasn’t a matchup nightmare or willing to play physical. Just there to kill time.

And I have bad news about what the next three years look like with Skinner. He can’t produce with anyone unless he’s on the top line and those days are a year past at this point. He’s a walking liability on the third line. You’re replacing Olofsson with an expensive Olofsson who doesn’t try as hard in his own end and is much worse on the PP. Buy him out. Not about the cap or the cash. It’s because you will not win with him.

 

[Aladyyn]

The bottom 6 complaints are lazy and at this point outdated. The additions of Benson, Greenway, and Robinson bolstered that part of the lineup and if we can add the kind of 3C we all want we're very well set.

Not even going to entertain the Skinner complaints when even the CAPITALS made the playoffs while playing Ovechkin 19 minutes a night. Nobody is saying we need to keep him on the roster for the duration of his contract but also buying him out this summer is just plain dumb. He won't play on the 1st PP unit anymore and given his history should do a fine job on a line with a new 3C and Greenway

 

[TageGod]

Is this a chicken or egg thing? Do bad teams buyout a player to become good or do they become good in order to buyout a player?

The part people miss on the $6.44 million cost in year three (26-27) if we buyout Skinner this year, is that the year three cost if you wait a year to buy him out is $6 million. If you wait two years it is $5.66 million. If you don’t buy him out at all it is $9 million. So, in 2026-27, which of these scenarios is good for retaining other players? The answer is none. So, why not at least get the benefit of $7.55 million in space to improve the team this year and then do what good teams do and figure out how to make players fit, or not fit, when the time comes.

If they can acquire someone for his contract savings for two years. Most of that becomes unavailable year three.

 

[Archie Lee]

If they can acquire someone for his contract savings for two years. Most of that becomes unavailable year three.

Yes, but most of it is unavailable year 3 in any scenario. The only ways that we have a Skinner cap hit of lower than $5.66 million in year 3 are trade, retirement or LTIR. In the meantime though, setting aside the unlikelihood of those 3 outcomes, you have Skinner and a $9 million cap hit on your roster. Better use could be made of a portion of that cap hit with a buyout.

 

[TageGod]

Yes, but most of it is unavailable year 3 in any scenario. The only ways that we have a Skinner cap hit of lower than $5.66 million in year 3 are trade, retirement or LTIR. In the meantime though, setting aside the unlikelihood of those 3 outcomes, you have Skinner and a $9 million cap hit on your roster. Better use could be made of a portion of that cap hit with a buyout.

I do agree, my hesitation is that he may still have use for another season on a team that maybe can't score anymore. I am not ruling out last year as the anomaly though.

 

[Archie Lee]

The bottom 6 complaints are lazy and at this point outdated. The additions of Benson, Greenway, and Robinson bolstered that part of the lineup and if we can add the kind of 3C we all want we're very well set.

Not even going to entertain the Skinner complaints when even the CAPITALS made the playoffs while playing Ovechkin 19 minutes a night. Nobody is saying we need to keep him on the roster for the duration of his contract but also buying him out this summer is just plain dumb. He won't play on the 1st PP unit anymore and given his history should do a fine job on a line with a new 3C and Greenway

I’ll bite. Why is a Skinner buyout this summer “just plain dumb”. What is the downside of a buyout vs the benefit. How does a buyout negatively impact roster construction?

 

[Rowley Birkin]

The bottom 6 complaints are lazy and at this point outdated. The additions of Benson, Greenway, and Robinson bolstered that part of the lineup and if we can add the kind of 3C we all want we're very well set.

Not even going to entertain the Skinner complaints when even the CAPITALS made the playoffs while playing Ovechkin 19 minutes a night. Nobody is saying we need to keep him on the roster for the duration of his contract but also buying him out this summer is just plain dumb. He won't play on the 1st PP unit anymore and given his history should do a fine job on a line with a new 3C and Greenway

Great post - although i still wouldn't discount playing Skinner with Thompson/Tuch either - we know they have been productive in the past. You could then arrange Peterka/Quin/Benson/Greenway across the Cozens & (likely) Krebs lines as they fit, then build a 'new' line with our offseason acquisitions plus maybe a Girgs or Robinson if either stick around.
Basically, centre spine/line usage as per my post yesterday in response to @Fjordy .

 

[Jim Bob]

The bottom 6 complaints are lazy and at this point outdated. The additions of Benson, Greenway, and Robinson bolstered that part of the lineup and if we can add the kind of 3C we all want we're very well set.

Not even going to entertain the Skinner complaints when even the CAPITALS made the playoffs while playing Ovechkin 19 minutes a night. Nobody is saying we need to keep him on the roster for the duration of his contract but also buying him out this summer is just plain dumb. He won't play on the 1st PP unit anymore and given his history should do a fine job on a line with a new 3C and Greenway

I believe that the Sabres are more than a 3C away from getting the roster where it needs to be.

And did you just compare Skinner to Ovie? Ovie was 30-30 last year and had 19 more points than Skinner last season and has been averaging 10 more goals per season over the past three seasons. And Ovie had 2 more ES goals last season than Skinner did. So, it's not just the much better PP production.

Skinner is the posterchild for the issues with the roster.

 

[TehDoak]

Actually, no it's not. There are significant cap penalties and zero point to it right now.

Is the team better with Skinner on it or without him?

There is an argument to be made that it would be better without him. The lines work better. You don't have to force him high ozone starts to keep him productive. He's a poor example of 3 zone play and work ethic even though he's the most veteran forward on the team. And, I think it's safe to say that him and Ruff simply aren't going to work.

Consider it:

Saves 7.5M this year, 4.5M next year, 2.6M. The real cost is the 3 trailing years of 2.44M.

But, when you realize the trailing years will likely have close to 100M of cap, it becomes a no brainer.

It's not a question of SHOULD they buy out Skinner, it's a clear yes. The buyout is really more of a question of organizational competence and financial commitment. Both of which have been in short supply since 2020.

 

[Jim Bob]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1797953949053657374

Too much of a focus on top 6 wingers for my liking. But, it is an interesting thought exercise.

 

[Aladyyn]

I believe that the Sabres are more than a 3C away from getting the roster where it needs to be.

And did you just compare Skinner to Ovie? Ovie was 30-30 last year and had 19 more points than Skinner last season and has been averaging 10 more goals per season over the past three seasons. And Ovie had 2 more ES goals last season than Skinner did. So, it's not just the much better PP production.

Skinner is the posterchild for the issues with the roster.

Where it needs to be to do what? Win the Cup? Sure. Make the playoffs? No.

And yeah I did compare Skinner to Ovechkin, though that's doing a disservice to Skinner at this point because he at least has some offensive juice at 5on5 even in a down year.

 

[Jim Bob]

Where it needs to be to do what? Win the Cup? Sure. Make the playoffs? No.

And yeah I did compare Skinner to Ovechkin, though that's doing a disservice to Skinner at this point because he at least has some offensive juice at 5on5 even in a down year.

Ovechkin had 18 ES goals and 37 ES points in 23-24.

Skinner had 16 ES goals and 34 ES points in 23-24.

Skinner wasn't as big a defensive liability at 5 on 5 as Ovie was. But, Skinner was not more offensively productive at ES.

And to make the playoffs, the Sabres need more than a 3C. They need multiple players that are more consistent than they are likely to get with more U23 guys on the roster.

The problem with this roster is they have two many guys that fall into one of two categories:

- Young, talented players that have not learned how to be consistent pros yet
- Vets who are well past their prime and know what to do, but can't do it

They need more guys that know what to do to be a playoff team and can do it.

 

[Aladyyn]

Ovechkin had 18 ES goals and 37 ES points in 23-24.

Skinner had 16 ES goals and 34 ES points in 23-24.

Skinner wasn't as big a defensive liability at 5 on 5 as Ovie was. But, Skinner was not more offensively productive at ES.

And to make the playoffs, the Sabres need more than a 3C. They need multiple players that are more consistent than they are likely to get with more U23 guys on the roster.

The problem with this roster is they have two many guys that fall into one of two categories:

- Young, talented players that have not learned how to be consistent pros yet
- Vets who are well past their prime and know what to do, but can't do it

They need more guys that know what to do to be a playoff team and can do it.

Capitals at 5on5 with Ovechkin on the ice: -20 goal differential
Sabres at 5on5 with Skinner on the ice: +9 goal differential

You're looking for issues that don't exist, the reason we didn't make the playoffs was because our powerplay was completely non-functional and that was like 90% coaching issue.

 

[Fjordy]

Great post - although i still wouldn't discount playing Skinner with Thompson/Tuch either - we know they have been productive in the past. You could then arrange Peterka/Quin/Benson/Greenway across the Cozens & (likely) Krebs lines as they fit, then build a 'new' line with our offseason acquisitions plus maybe a Girgs or Robinson if either stick around.
Basically, centre spine/line usage as per my post yesterday in response to @Fjordy .

Zemgus has already sold his house (so it is unlikely to stay)

Thompson
Cozens
3C
Krebs

 

[Jim Bob]

Capitals at 5on5 with Ovechkin on the ice: -20 goal differential
Sabres at 5on5 with Skinner on the ice: +9 goal differential

You're looking for issues that don't exist, the reason we didn't make the playoffs was because our powerplay was completely non-functional and that was like 90% coaching issue.

The Sabres scored 23 fewer goals last season at 5v5 than in 22-23. And they scored 22 fewer goals at 5v4. The issues with the offense were more than just the PP and more than just coaching.

And I am not counting on Lindy and Seth figuring out the PP issues without some personnel changes. The lack of a quality net front guy since trading away Reinhart has been a huge issue that coaching alone is unlikely to overcome.

 

[CaliSabresfan24]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1797953949053657374

Too much of a focus on top 6 wingers for my liking. But, it is an interesting thought exercise.

Where did the fixation of Brady Tkachuk getting traded to Buffalo come from anyway?

Don't get me wrong, me and everyone would love Brady on their team but even if the Sens were looking to move him, I highly doubt they move him in division.

 

[Beerz]

Where did the fixation of Brady Tkachuk getting traded to Buffalo come from anyway?

Don't get me wrong, me and everyone would love Brady on their team but even if the Sens were looking to move him, I highly doubt they move him in division.

Just a nice fantasy..

 

[Der Jaeger]

Where did the fixation of Brady Tkachuk getting traded to Buffalo come from anyway?

Don't get me wrong, me and everyone would love Brady on their team but even if the Sens were looking to move him, I highly doubt they move him in division.

Me

He'd fix a lot of what's wrong with the Sabres.

Change Samuelsson to Jokiharju in that trade scenario and I pull the trigger.

For those that didn't listen, it was Levi, 2025 1st (top 3 protected), 2024 2nd, and Samuelsson.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

The roster is good enough to make the playoffs with good coaching. After that they get caved in without more veteran, tough, physical, defensively responsible players.

 

[Fjordy]

The roster is good enough to make the playoffs with good coaching. After that they get caved in without more veteran, tough, physical, defensively responsible players.

You can always do better, especially considering all the risks, injuries, player regression, etc. I'm not sure this roster will make it to the playoffs next season.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

You can always do better, especially considering all the risks, injuries, player regression, etc. I'm not sure this roster will make it to the playoffs next season.

I'm not sure either, with the current holes at C.

 

[CaliSabresfan24]

Me

He'd fix a lot of what's wrong with the Sabres.

Change Samuelsson to Jokiharju in that trade scenario and I pull the trigger.

For those that didn't listen, it was Levi, 2025 1st (top 3 protected), 2024 2nd, and Samuelsson.

But I don't see Ottawa pulling the trigger on that offer for an in division trade.

I think you would need to swap Levi for UPL (I figure they'd want a more NHL ready goalie) and Samuelsson for Power or Byram.

Again, would absolutely love Brady on the Sabres, especially since Botts was apparently trying to trade up to get him in the draft but I have little to no faith the Sens would make a deal with us.