The Rebuild Started...

[Canucks1096]

So tell me, which of those veterans doesn't play?

I would much rather have Tyler Ennis, Patrick Maroon, or even Kyle Brodziak on the roster than Jay Beagle, Antoine Roussel, Tim Schaller, Brandon Sutter, or Markus Granlund.

I see lines like this is everyone healthy

Goldobin Horvat Boeser
Baer Pettersson Eriksson
Rousell Sutter Virtanen
Schaller Gaudette Beagle

Dahlen Granlund Liepsic Gagner

Very hard determine if the Vets are going to play ahead of young players because there is always at least few guys out. We wont really know who the top 12 forwards are.

However the last 4 years when a young players were ready they did make a spot for them. 2015 Hutton made the team, Weber was a healthy scratch to start the season. Also that year Macann made the team and Vey was put on waiver. Vey is not Vet but he was regular player the season before. So they if young player earned a spot. They do make room.

 

[pgj98m3]

I see lines like this is everyone healthy

Goldobin Horvat Boeser
Baer Pettersson Eriksson
Rousell Sutter Virtanen
Schaller Gaudette Beagle

Dahlen Granlund Liepsic Gagner

Very hard determine if the Vets are going to play young players because there is always at least few guys out. We wont really know who the top 12 forwards are.

However the last 4 years when a young players were ready they did make a spot for them. 2015 Hutton made the team, Weber was a healthy scratch to start the season. Also that year Macann made the team and Vey was put on waiver. Vey is not Vet but he was regular player the season before. So they if young player earned a spot. They do make room.

You are right...the youth movement is so obvious on this team.

 

[Kryten]

I see lines like this is everyone healthy

Goldobin Horvat Boeser
Baer Pettersson Eriksson
Rousell Sutter Virtanen
Schaller Gaudette Beagle

Dahlen Granlund Liepsic Gagner

Very hard determine if the Vets are going to play young players because there is always at least few guys out. We wont really know who the top 12 forwards are.

However the last 4 years when a young players were ready they did make a spot for them. 2015 Hutton made the team, Weber was a healthy scratch to start the season. Also that year Macann made the team and Vey was put on waiver. Vey is not Vet but he was regular player the season before. So they if young player earned a spot. They do make room.

Id counter with McCann and Virtanen being gifted a spot in their draft+2 after a good and bad season between them since Benning let A lot of depth walk for nothing that summer. Vey was a coaches pet and cost our previous point leading defensman. This year we already have 13 “nhl” forwards before Pettersson and the rest of the prospects. EP should make the team, hell a few other prospects should as well. Hopefully if that happens before injuries we can get something back in trades instead of losing players to other teams via waivers

 

[pgj98m3]

Id counter with McCann and Virtanen being gifted a spot in their draft+2 after a good and bad season between them since Benning let A lot of depth walk for nothing that summer. Vey was a coaches pet and cost our previous point leading defensman. This year we already have 13 “nhl” forwards before Pettersson and the rest of the prospects. EP should make the team, hell a few other prospects should as well. Hopefully if that happens before injuries we can get something back in trades instead of losing players to other teams via waivers

Hopefully Lindenning will be gone so a real rebuild can start.

 

[Canucks1096]

You are right...the youth movement is so obvious on this team.

Young players that are ready to play in the nhl, they play. Young players that are not ready, play somewhere else until they are ready.

 

[Canucks1096]

Hopefully Lindenning will be gone so a real rebuild can start.

If you were the GM. How would your rebuild look like?

 

[Kryten]

If you were the GM. How would your rebuild look like?

It would be nice to have more than the 6.75 average picks that we have had for the last 4 years. Look at the sheer number of picks detroit has had lately and for next draft already

 

[Canucks1096]

It would be nice to have more than the 6.75 average picks that we have had for the last 4 years. Look at the sheer number of picks detroit has had lately and for next draft already

If you look at the players from the Gillis era

Kesler got a 1st round pick
Garrison got a 2nd round pick
Bieksa got a 2nd round pick
Burrows got a prospect
Hansen got a prospect
Higgins had zero value
Lack 3rd round pick
Sedins didn't want to waive ntc
Edler didn't want to waive ntc
Hamhuis got nothing

If you look at all the players. Either they got picks or prospects back or had zero value or players didn't want to waive their no trade clause. The only exception is Hamhuis.

They would have more picks but Benning likes to trade picks for a struggling young player. But Benning doesn't usually trade picks for a vet

So who should we trade to get more picks? Eriksson and Gagner have no value. Dont think Hutton and MDZ are worth more.

 

[arttk]

Those 3 signings pretty much replace Gaunce Motte and Archibald. They didn't replace a scorer. Even without those signings. Pettersson if he playing wing still needs a center to play with
Sutter might still be an option as well.

If those players play on the 4th line. It still doesn't change the players you listed that had problem scoring. With or without it has no impact on the team.

Motte and Archibald never had a spot to lose. Sutter replaced Henrik, Beagle relaced Sutter and Schaller replaced whatever we had on the 4th line, Rousell replaces Dorsett who was the 3rd line main stay. The lineup as it stand right is this

Bae Bo Boes
Ericsson Sutter Petterson
Gagner Beagle Rousell
Granlund Schaller Virtanen
Leipsic

There is no bloody way anyone is going to bump Beagle, Rousell, Gagner, Sutter and Ericsson, Schaller off the roster so where would “scorer” fit?

Here is another way to look at our wonderfully crafted roster.

Locked locked locked
Locked locked locked
Locked locked locked
Maybe locked maybe
Or
40pts 60pts 65pts
40pts 35pts 60pts
30pts 25pts 20pts
15pts 15pts 15pts
And I am being super damn generous here too.
And at most you might see one of Virtanen/Granlund get benched for “scorer” but unless you are getting 100pt guy, there is nobody that would make a dent in terms of making the team better.
So yeah back to that points no the 2 vets don’t do shit because they are basically replacing the role Sutter and Ericsson played whole Sutter and Ericsson replaces the role the twins played. Overall a big negative difference.

 

[Kryten]

If you look at the players from the Gillis era

Kesler got a 1st round pick
Garrison got a 2nd round pick
Bieksa got a 2nd round pick
Burrows got a prospect
Hansen got a prospect
Higgins had zero value
Lack 3rd round pick
Sedins didn't want to waive ntc
Edler didn't want to waive ntc
Hamhuis got nothing

If you look at all the players. Either they got picks or prospects back or had zero value or players didn't want to waive their no trade clause. The only exception is Hamhuis.

They would have more picks but Benning likes to trade picks for a struggling young player. But Benning doesn't usually trade picks for a vet

So who should we trade to get more picks? Eriksson and Gagner have no value. Dont think Hutton and MDZ are worth more.

I get what you are saying. Im crabby about using those picks acquired to be traded away too easily for mostly cheap UFA/waiver quality players. We wouldve still been as bad but with way more assets to show for it. The re tool turned into a failed re-build like we thought it would. The trade deadlines have added too much pain for us while little to nothing positive for the team. We had our chance, it was mismanaged. I think we are in agreement. If they want to call this a rebuild now, they have let most assets walk or traded for not great returns. The signings they continue to do are long term with little to no chance of turning into assets later

 

[y2kcanucks]

I see lines like this is everyone healthy

Goldobin Horvat Boeser
Baer Pettersson Eriksson
Rousell Sutter Virtanen
Schaller Gaudette Beagle

Dahlen Granlund Liepsic Gagner

Very hard determine if the Vets are going to play ahead of young players because there is always at least few guys out. We wont really know who the top 12 forwards are.

However the last 4 years when a young players were ready they did make a spot for them. 2015 Hutton made the team, Weber was a healthy scratch to start the season. Also that year Macann made the team and Vey was put on waiver. Vey is not Vet but he was regular player the season before. So they if young player earned a spot. They do make room.

Stecher earned a spot his rookie season but was sent down. He was only given a roster spot when injuries occurred.

So you’re suggesting we’ll be waiving Granlund, Gagner, and Leipsic?

They signed Beagle to play the wing now?

 

[Canucks1096]

Motte and Archibald never had a spot to lose. Sutter replaced Henrik, Beagle relaced Sutter and Schaller replaced whatever we had on the 4th line, Rousell replaces Dorsett who was the 3rd line main stay. The lineup as it stand right is this

Bae Bo Boes
Ericsson Sutter Petterson
Gagner Beagle Rousell
Granlund Schaller Virtanen
Leipsic

There is no bloody way anyone is going to bump Beagle, Rousell, Gagner, Sutter and Ericsson, Schaller off the roster so where would “scorer” fit?

Here is another way to look at our wonderfully crafted roster.

Locked locked locked
Locked locked locked
Locked locked locked
Maybe locked maybe
Or
40pts 60pts 65pts
40pts 35pts 60pts
30pts 25pts 20pts
15pts 15pts 15pts
And I am being super damn generous here too.
And at most you might see one of Virtanen/Granlund get benched for “scorer” but unless you are getting 100pt guy, there is nobody that would make a dent in terms of making the team better.
So yeah back to that points no the 2 vets don’t do **** because they are basically replacing the role Sutter and Ericsson played whole Sutter and Ericsson replaces the role the twins played. Overall a big negative difference.

I honestly don't think Sutter is playing with Pettersson. They will try it in the preseason and that won't work. Sutter will go back to his 3rd line role. If those 3 ufa wasn't sign. Somebody has to play with Sutter on the checking line. Green usually uses Gaunce and Archibald. They hardly uses a young scorer with Sutter.

It's really Is a moot point. There always going to be a few players out with injuries. So these 4 should be ready for the nhl That are not regulars yet are Pettersson Goldobin Gaudette and maybe Dahlen. Pettersson you agree would play no matter what.. So with injuries 2 out of Gaudette Goldobin dahlen will still play.

You are going to No way to prove you are right with your lineup because there are going a few guys out with injuries

I still don't understand what is the big fuss about. You guys want young players playing. The young players are going to play. If those Vets ahead them. Who cares. The young players are still going to play.

 

[Canucks1096]

Stecher earned a spot his rookie season but was sent down. He was only given a roster spot when injuries occurred.

So you’re suggesting we’ll be waiving Granlund, Gagner, and Leipsic?

They signed Beagle to play the wing now?

I admit Stecher played well in the preseason but he didn't do enough to take a spot. Benning got Gudbranson for his grit and on the pk. Larsen was brought in for the pp. For those roles Gudbranson and Larsen was better fit. Once Tanev got back they still kept Stecher around because he played well. So in the end they still played the young player.

No need to waive because there are going to be a lot of injuries.

At this point we are just kind going around circles. Getting a little bit dizzy now

Long story short. Regardless of what the reason is the young players that are ready are still going to play nhl games. You don't need worry about young players not getting a chance

 

[arttk]

I honestly don't think Sutter is playing with Pettersson. They will try it in the preseason and that won't work. Sutter will go back to his 3rd line role. If those 3 ufa wasn't sign. Somebody has to play with Sutter on the checking line. Green usually uses Gaunce and Archibald. They hardly uses a young scorer with Sutter.

It's really Is a moot point. There always going to be a few players out with injuries. So these 4 should be ready for the nhl That are not regulars yet are Pettersson Goldobin Gaudette and maybe Dahlen. Pettersson you agree would play no matter what.. So with injuries 2 out of Gaudette Goldobin dahlen will still play.

You are going to No way to prove you are right with your lineup because there are going a few guys out with injuries

I still don't understand what is the big fuss about. You guys want young players playing. The young players are going to play. If those Vets ahead them. Who cares. The young players are still going to play.

Uhhh have you followed what this regime does? Things not working in preseason doesn’t make a difference to them. They brute force what they think should be. Sutter is not going to be the 3rd line C because they don’t have anybody that can play as the 2nd line C. Gagner is not going to play there because he is not “foundational” and the best hope is that Pettersson blows everyone anyway but even then they are going to make Sutter the 2nd line winger. Sutter is going to be on the 2nd line regardless because that is how this management thinks where he should play. They signed Beagle and Schaller to be their 3rd and 4th line C, everything points to that. He talks about oh he is physical, will take the hard matchups and free up Sutter to have a bigger role. Benning is as transparent as hell and that is him saying, Beagle on the 3rd and Schaller on the 4th.
Goldy and Leipsic need to pass through waivers so with what we lineup you have, you are going to lose one because we know if Goldy pass waivers he is going to be in Russia. Yeah injuries happen but injuries doesn’t give you a roster spot. When guys comes back from an injury, the roster spot goes back to whoever owned it before because lets repeat this again, those vets are not getting bumped. And guess what, those vets suck at scoring too and even if they can score, can they score with Beagle and Schaller centering them?

 

[arttk]

I admit Stecher played well in the preseason but he didn't do enough to take a spot. Benning got Gudbranson for his grit and on the pk. Larsen was brought in for the pp. For those roles Gudbranson and Larsen was better fit. Once Tanev got back they still kept Stecher around because he played well. So in the end they still played the young player.

No need to waive because there are going to be a lot of injuries.

At this point we are just kind going around circles. Getting a little bit dizzy now

Long story short. Regardless of what the reason is the young players that are ready are still going to play nhl games. You don't need worry about young players not getting a chance

Ok that is a lie, Stecher was absolutely good enough in preseason and outplayed enough people to earn a spot. He was sent down not because of performance but because vets comes first. Larsen was brought in for the PP and he stunk, Gubranson was brought in for his pedigree and he stunk. Stecher didn’t get called until an injury popped up. Hell they wanted to send Tryamkin down because all the roster spots were promised to the vets even though the vets were crap.

 

[F A N]

Uhhh have you followed what this regime does? Things not working in preseason doesn’t make a difference to them. They brute force what they think should be... Yeah injuries happen but injuries doesn’t give you a roster spot. When guys comes back from an injury, the roster spot goes back to whoever owned it before because lets repeat this again, those vets are not getting bumped.

What you're describing can be said for pretty much every team. The preseason is for trying out lines yes, but it is also for working on chemistry. Established veterans don't even need to play the preseason beyond getting ready. You think Horvat's preseason performance with Boeser for example is going to influence whether or not they play together in the regular season? Umm... I don't think so. As for injuries, coaches have their guys and there is a cliche that you don't lose your spot due to injury.

Anyways, who do you have in mind with that comment anyways? Which vet got their spot back when they came back from injury and bumped someone who deserve the spot? Are you suggesting that a veteran coming back from injury and is ready to play shouldn't be reinserted into a lineup of a team that isn't on a winning streak?

 

[ProstheticConscience]

If you look at the players from the Gillis era

Kesler got a 1st round pick...used to draft McCann, who was traded for Gudbranson.
Garrison got a 2nd round pick...which was traded for Vey, who sucked and left for nothing after two years.
Bieksa got a 2nd round pick...which was thrown in on the Sutter deal.
Burrows got a prospect...who isn't going to have a spot on the roster anytime soon.
Hansen got a prospect...who sucked and also isn't going to have a spot on the roster anytime soon.
Higgins had zero value.
Lack 3rd round pick...one of the few picks the team kept, but Brisebois is still an AHL dman for now.
Sedins didn't want to waive ntc
Edler didn't want to waive ntc
Hamhuis got nothing...because Benning couldn't pull the trigger on a deal at TDL.

If you look at all the players. Either they got picks or prospects back or had zero value or players didn't want to waive their no trade clause. The only exception is Hamhuis.

They would have more picks but Benning likes to trade picks for a struggling young player. But Benning doesn't usually trade picks for a vet

So who should we trade to get more picks? Eriksson and Gagner have no value. Dont think Hutton and MDZ are worth more.

And also, why only include the guys left over from the Gillis years? Why not look at the guys Benning acquired? Why did he not get anything for Bartkowski or Vrbata at the deadline? Why did he trade Vanek for an AHLer and a guy he didn't bother re-signing?

Also also, if MDZ, Eriksson and Gagner have no value, why do we have these people? If you look around at the league, you'd be surprised what other GMs seem to get for their players. I'm really getting sick of Benning getting players who suddenly become valueless the instant they put on a Canucks jersey.

 

[arttk]

What you're describing can be said for pretty much every team. The preseason is for trying out lines yes, but it is also for working on chemistry. Established veterans don't even need to play the preseason beyond getting ready. You think Horvat's preseason performance with Boeser for example is going to influence whether or not they play together in the regular season? Umm... I don't think so. As for injuries, coaches have their guys and there is a cliche that you don't lose your spot due to injury.

Anyways, who do you have in mind with that comment anyways? Which vet got their spot back when they came back from injury and bumped someone who deserve the spot? Are you suggesting that a veteran coming back from injury and is ready to play shouldn't be reinserted into a lineup of a team that isn't on a winning streak?

Winning streak with our lineup? Lol
Vets will get their spot because they are vets, doesn’t matter if the kids outplays them and produces and even if they are in the lineup, our centers are such offensive black holes they are going to do nothing to help develop them. Look at our C depth, Sutter, Beagle, Schaller and Gagner. No rookie winger is going to flourish with that kind of linemates. Better pray that Petterson can play like a 2nd line C right away or else it’s going to be sad for our kids.

 

[F A N]

Winning streak with our lineup? Lol

Exactly. There was no winning streak. So why wouldn't the vets who held a roster spot not be reinserted into the lineup when they come back from injury? Don't know why this is lost on you.

Vets will get their spot because they are vets, doesn’t matter if the kids outplays them and produces and even if they are in the lineup, our centers are such offensive black holes they are going to do nothing to help develop them.

Which vets kept their spots despite kids outplaying them? If all you're arguing about is the length of time it took to make adjustments well if you have followed hockey over the years this tend to happen with every coach.

Look at our C depth, Sutter, Beagle, Schaller and Gagner. No rookie winger is going to flourish with that kind of linemates. Better pray that Petterson can play like a 2nd line C right away or else it’s going to be sad for our kids.

You avoided the question. Which vet got their spot back when they came back from injury and bumped someone who deserve the spot? Are you suggesting that a veteran coming back from injury and is ready to play shouldn't be reinserted into a lineup of a team that isn't on a winning streak?

 

[Canucks1096]

Ok that is a lie, Stecher was absolutely good enough in preseason and outplayed enough people to earn a spot. He was sent down not because of performance but because vets comes first. Larsen was brought in for the PP and he stunk, Gubranson was brought in for his pedigree and he stunk. Stecher didn’t get called until an injury popped up. Hell they wanted to send Tryamkin down because all the roster spots were promised to the vets even though the vets were crap.

So if Vets came first. How come Stecher didn't get sent down when Tanev came back from injury?

 

[y2kcanucks]

I admit Stecher played well in the preseason but he didn't do enough to take a spot. Benning got Gudbranson for his grit and on the pk. Larsen was brought in for the pp. For those roles Gudbranson and Larsen was better fit. Once Tanev got back they still kept Stecher around because he played well. So in the end they still played the young player.

No need to waive because there are going to be a lot of injuries.

At this point we are just kind going around circles. Getting a little bit dizzy now

Long story short. Regardless of what the reason is the young players that are ready are still going to play nhl games. You don't need worry about young players not getting a chance

Actually Stecher did play well enough to earn a spot. The only thing more he needed to do was be an overpaid veteran.

You're saying there will be a lot of injuries to start the season?

 

[RandV]

Which vets kept their spots despite kids outplaying them? If all you're arguing about is the length of time it took to make adjustments well if you have followed hockey over the years this tend to happen with every coach.

I know it's going against what the other guy said but we shouldn't forget that we're on our second coach under Benning. While management may want one thing the coach is still given room to do his own thing, and Green is a different coach than Desjardins. Like, seeing someone hold up Linden Vey as an example of Benning giving 'kids' a spot to play is just ...

Either way, with the point you're trying to make the water gets really muddy because when one guy gets back usually another gets injured. Goldobin could get called up to replace an injured Eriksson, but when he gets healthy Goldobing stays in the lineup because now Boeser is injured, etc etc.

Also not every season is equal. Last season was the most depth we've had to date, up until this season when we have even more guys upfront. Benning is hardly consistent in his approach and his management left little cap room and practically no depth for 2015-16 and 2016-17 seasons. Seems kind of pointless to argue now whether Green will find room for some youth or not, and under what circumstances, but it's worth pointing out that these sorts of pre-season questions almost always end up going against management in the end.

 

[arttk]

So if Vets came first. How come Stecher didn't get sent down when Tanev came back from injury?

Because Gubranson missed 52 games. Or are you banking on that happening to someone this season?

 

[Bubbles]

When, in your opinion, did the rebuild start?

A refresher timeline:
2012: 111 points; Won President's Trophy; bounced in R1 by LAK
2013: 59 points (lockout year); won division; swept in R1 by SJS; Vigneault fired
2014: 83 points; missed playoffs; Luongo traded; Gillis fired; Tortorella fired; Kesler traded
2015: 101 points; bounced in R1 by CGY
2016: 75 points; missed playoffs
2017: 69 points (not nice); missed playoffs; Desjardins fired
2018: 73 points; missed playoffs; Sedins retired

There was never going to be a proper rebuild until the Sedins retired. Yeah, there was a 2-3 year window where the Canucks are legitimate SC contenders, and right after that , there should have been a proper rebuild. Even Gillis knew that back in 2014.

But there was also that mentality of "One more kick at the can!", which inevitable dragged it to this year. Like others have mentioned, I think Aquilini has ordered the team to be competitive every year. So until he goes, I don't see much hope.

We can't even "fail" properly. When it was obvious to everyone that we weren't going the playoffs, somehow every year we have a surge of wins in meaningless games, making our draft position worse. How we haven't had a top-3 pick in the last 4 years is ridiculous. In any draft, there is a HUGE gap in talent from the top 1-2 to the next crop.

 

[passive voice]

Define rebuild first

no u