The Rebuild Started...

[ProstheticConscience]

So I listed on average one or two prospects a draft in my lineup that will make it to nhl. For some reason you think one or two prospects is all?

No, I'm saying don't count your chickens before they've hatched. You can't count on prospects becoming players, that's why you need to draft as many as possible. That's the killer flaw Benning has made so far. What you're doing right now is no different than stuff like: "Well Horvat, Schroeder and Gaunce down the middle can be pretty solid...if Cassels can keep going from how he checked McDavid we're pretty good there...I think Sauve's a bit of a dark horse but he could be a solid 2nd, 3rd pairing guy...Subban's got a great motor and I think if you paired him with Tryamkin that could be a solid pairing...!" What happened to all that?

 

[Bleach Clean]

can someone help me out? No idea how to vote on any thread.

Go to the top of the thread where the voting options are, choose one, and then press the "cast your vote" button.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

no u

Rebuild is the process of going from a team whose championship window has closed to one with an open window. There are lots of ways to get from A to B.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Rebuild is the process of going from a team whose championship window has closed to one with an open window. There are lots of ways to get from A to B.

But only 1 generally accepted method that is adopted by countless GMs as a best practice. There is nothing you will be able to say RMB that will dispute this. History speaks.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

2013 Horvat
2014 Virtanen Tryamkin Demko
2015 Boeser Gaudette
2016 Juolevi
2017 Pettersson
2018 Hughes

Dahlen, Goldobin or Baer. I think a few young player Benning traded for are going to solid nhlers. Don't think that unrealistic

2 more impact players one wing and
one D that not drafted yet.

So I think on average one or two prospects a draft makes it to the nhl and I think everyone is going to make it to nhl? Where did you come to that conclusion? It really seem like you are disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.

A lot of people are high on Lind Gadjovich, Woo. I don't have them listed. A lot think Virtanen and Gaudette are 3rd line players but lot of people think there top 6.

Man it's funny I have been called pessimistic and optimistic a lot on this forum. But reality I just call it the way I see it.

Mclennan even said Canucks would be a really good teams in 2 to 3 years

Even Ray Ferraro,who is an outspoken critic of the management agrees that the Canucks are going to have an upswing in the next couple of years...

 

[y2kcanucks]

Even Ray Ferraro,who is an outspoken critic of the management agrees that the Canucks are going to have an upswing in the next couple of years...

Ahh..so when you can't use any facts to support your position just appeal to authority. Typical. I prefer to think for myself though.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Ahh..so when you can't use any facts to support your position just appeal to authority. Typical. I prefer to think for myself though.

How,... by making blowhard 'doom and gloom' prophecies..?

 

[CanaFan]

2013 Horvat
2014 Virtanen Tryamkin Demko
2015 Boeser Gaudette
2016 Juolevi
2017 Pettersson
2018 Hughes

Dahlen, Goldobin or Baer. I think a few young player Benning traded for are going to solid nhlers. Don't think that unrealistic

2 more impact players one wing and
one D that not drafted yet.

So I think on average one or two prospects a draft makes it to the nhl and I think everyone is going to make it to nhl? Where did you come to that conclusion? It really seem like you are disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.

A lot of people are high on Lind Gadjovich, Woo. I don't have them listed. A lot think Virtanen and Gaudette are 3rd line players but lot of people think there top 6.

Man it's funny I have been called pessimistic and optimistic a lot on this forum. But reality I just call it the way I see it.

Mclennan even said Canucks would be a really good teams in 2 to 3 years

I don't understand what you are trying to convey by writing the players out like that. But I just think you are Canucks-biased in a couple areas:

1. Assuming every player you've listed will a) Become an NHLer, and b) Become an IMPACT NHLer. Like, I think Olli Juolevi is very likely to become a regular NHL defenseman. But what will his impact be? Will he be a Sami Salo type player? That's a pretty good outcome, right? Well consider that the 2010-11 Canucks (an elite team) had not only Salo, but also Bieksa, Hamhuis, Edler, Erhoff, and Ballard. So while you are all excited about potentially having Juoelvi and Hughes in 2-3 years, look at what comprised a great defense and ask yourself are we even close to that yet? You've essentially assembled the Salo and the Erhoff of that defense. There's still 3-4 very good defensemen needed to build a contending defense.

2. Underestimating what a "solid" NHLer is. Sven Baertschi plays top line minutes, PP time, etc. He is 25 years old, which is not young for an NHL forward. His career high is 35 points. You have too low of a bar for what constitutes a "solid" NHLer. Goldobin will be 23 in the fall and hasn't even made the NHL full time. He is not trending even close to being a "solid" NHLer. He is closer to trending as a "marginal" NHLer. Dahlen is the only one of the 3 you list who is trending well enough to reasonably expect to be a solid NHLer.

3. Ignoring the job Benning has done in trades and UFAs. While the team's drafting under Benning and Brackett appears to be better than previously regimes, that is only a part of building a contending team. A GM still has to be able to identify pro players to acquire in trade or UFA in order to fill holes and round out the roster. No team is comprised entirely of drafted players. In this regard Benning has been extremely poor. Gudbranson, Sbisa, Eriksson, Bartkowski, Prust, etc. His ability to scout and acquire quality NHL players has been .... non-existent ... so far. This is probably the biggest hurdle to the rebuild being "over" in the next year or two. Even if the amount of young talent sitting in Utica is good enough, the job of molding it into an effective NHL team is likely beyond the meagre capabilities of our current GM.

 

[y2kcanucks]

How,... by making blowhard 'doom and gloom' prophecies..?

Blowhard? Someone sounds bitter.

I'm talking about reality. Try it sometime. Though if you prefer to just be positive about everything and always think the best, that's fine too. That's up to you. Just don't act like your point has any connection with reality though, and don't expect people to take it seriously. We live in a world of facts and logic.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Blowhard? Someone sounds bitter.

I'm talking about reality. Try it sometime. Though if you prefer to just be positive about everything and always think the best, that's fine too. That's up to you. Just don't act like your point has any connection with reality though, and don't expect people to take it seriously. We live in a world of facts and logic.

Not bitter all...I'm totally optimistic about the Canucks future...I don't have an axe to grind.

Anyway,..there certainly seems to be difference in the way some of the media are portraying the future..They're not out of the woods yet ,but there is definitely a light at the end of the tunnel....The talent that Benning has assembled just cannot be ignored.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Not bitter all...I'm totally optimistic about the Canucks future...I don't have an axe to grind.

Anyway,..there certainly seems to be difference in the way some of the media are portraying future..They're not out of the woods yet ,but there is definitely a light at the end of the tunnel....The talent that Benning has assembled just cannot be ignored.

I honestly don't care what the media says. I'm looking at the facts, and as I have stated earlier in this thread the facts do not support that the Canucks are currently in a rebuild. Furthermore, based on what Benning has done and based on his job performance, the facts do not support the idea that the Canucks have a bright future.

Edmonton, for example, had a better prospect pool than the Canucks by virtue of all their 1st overall picks. That prospect pool didn't help them. They could not overcome the incompetence of their management team. But hey, they had a great prospect pool so I suppose they must have won a Cup recently, right?

Facts. You even agreed that people should use facts more often in their arguments, yet you continue to ignore them.

 

[Jimbo57]

I honestly don't care what the media says. I'm looking at the facts, and as I have stated earlier in this thread the facts do not support that the Canucks are currently in a rebuild. Furthermore, based on what Benning has done and based on his job performance, the facts do not support the idea that the Canucks have a bright future.

Edmonton, for example, had a better prospect pool than the Canucks by virtue of all their 1st overall picks. That prospect pool didn't help them. They could not overcome the incompetence of their management team. But hey, they had a great prospect pool so I suppose they must have won a Cup recently, right?

Facts. You even agreed that people should use facts more often in their arguments, yet you continue to ignore them.

You are right, Edmonton failed and henceforth Vancouver will fail too. I like the facts.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

I honestly don't care what the media says. I'm looking at the facts, and as I have stated earlier in this thread the facts do not support that the Canucks are currently in a rebuild. Furthermore, based on what Benning has done and based on his job performance, the facts do not support the idea that the Canucks have a bright future.

Edmonton, for example, had a better prospect pool than the Canucks by virtue of all their 1st overall picks. That prospect pool didn't help them. They could not overcome the incompetence of their management team. But hey, they had a great prospect pool so I suppose they must have won a Cup recently, right?

Facts. You even agreed that people should use facts more often in their arguments, yet you continue to ignore them.

Thats funny ..you seemed to really care what Canucksarmy (and they're barely media) had to say when one of their bloggers fabricated a trade rumour that fit your narrative

The Canucks have amassed some incredible talent..fact.

Were the new Edmonton Oilers..one of the favourite defaults for the haters..another of your prophecies?

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Thats funny ..you seemed to really care what Canucksarmy (and they're barely media) had to say when one of their bloggers fabricated a trade rumour that fit your narrative

The Canucks have amassed some incredible talent..fact.

Were the new Edmonton Oilers..one of the favourite defaults for the haters..another of your prophecies?

Yeah. Canucks Army is annoying for you I bet. Better smear them a bit "they're barely media."

Annoying how they look at stats and results and don't leave any room for a positive spin when you need it the most.

 

[y2kcanucks]

You are right, Edmonton failed and henceforth Vancouver will fail too. I like the facts.

For the reasons I stated previously in this thread which no one has been able to refute. PoM attempted, but then quickly gave up because he wasn't able to continue with his incorrect narrative otherwise.

Thats funny ..you seemed to really care what Canucksarmy (and they're barely media) had to say when one of their bloggers fabricated a trade rumour that fit your narrative

The Canucks have amassed some incredible talent..fact.

Were the new Edmonton Oilers..one of the favourite defaults for the haters..another of your prophecies?

Barely media? Uh...they're a hell of a lot more credible than you or I. I like their articles because they base their analysis on facts, data and analysis. They're not some fluff piece like IMac. Do you have proof that they fabricated a trade rumour? Or are you just making things up like you usually do when the facts go against the narrative you want?

The Canucks have amassed some good prospects, no one is denying that. What people are saying is that it takes more than just a handful of good prospects to build a good hockey team. We've seen plenty of examples where teams have had even better prospect pools than the Canucks and they have failed miserably. And to tie this in to the actual topic at hand (since you like to deflect because you couldn't refute the points made about this topic), there is no rebuild.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Yeah. Canucks Army is annoying for you I bet. Better smear them a bit "they're barely media."

Annoying how they look at stats and results and don't leave any room for a positive spin when you need it the most.

The Benning Bro's absolutely hate Canucks Army because CA uses facts and data to write their pieces and the Benning Bro's don't like the facts. If they actually looked at the facts they would have to admit that Jim Benning has done a very poor job as GM, but because they don't want to admit that they are forced to ignore the facts.

It's just hilarious when they act like they want a factual based argument yet produce statements that are anything but.

 

[passive voice]

Rebuild is the process of going from a team whose championship window has closed to one with an open window. There are lots of ways to get from A to B.

that's a pretty good definition! Do you feel the Canucks have started that process? If so, when?

 

[pgj98m3]

Thats funny ..you seemed to really care what Canucksarmy (and they're barely media) had to say when one of their bloggers fabricated a trade rumour that fit your narrative

The Canucks have amassed some incredible talent..fact.

Were the new Edmonton Oilers..one of the favourite defaults for the haters..another of your prophecies?

If by "some" you mean 2 , maybe 3, prospects that have yet to play in the NHL and Boeser then that would be "fact" but in the real world we aren't even close.

 

[y2kcanucks]

If by "some" you mean 2 , maybe 3, prospects that have yet to play in the NHL and Boeser then that would be "fact" but in the real world we aren't even close.

I do find it funny how he uses the term "incredible" and acts like that's a fact. How does one define an "incredible" prospect? Is that McDavid level? Matthews level? If not, how do you label that level of prospects?

 

[Cupless44]

You are right, Edmonton failed and henceforth Vancouver will fail too. I like the facts.

It certainly looks like they are making a lot of the same poor management decisions and mistakes. Starting with keeping the old players instead of good management people. No better example than Trevor Linden. He is our Kevin Lowe.

 

[RandV]

Even Ray Ferraro,who is an outspoken critic of the management agrees that the Canucks are going to have an upswing in the next couple of years...

What level of upswing though? We've been a basement team for 3 years straight, the only way to go at this point is up. Becoming a bubble team that makes the playoffs every other year getting bounced in the first round would be an "upswing" from where we are now. Doesn't mean they're doing a good job.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

What level of upswing though? We've been a basement team for 3 years straight, the only way to go at this point is up. Becoming a bubble team that makes the playoffs every other year getting bounced in the first round would be an "upswing" from where we are now. Doesn't mean they're doing a good job.

What are you're expectations..?..The Canucks making the playoffs with a young core of players still won't suffice?...Or does it still mean they're a shitty team regardless ?

Toronto Maple Leafs have been bounced out of the first round in consecutive years..bubble team,must be..are they doing a good job?...

 

[y2kcanucks]

What are you're expectations..?..The Canucks making the playoffs with a young core of players still won't suffice?...Or does it still mean they're a ****ty team regardless ?

Toronto Maple Leafs have been bounced out of the first round in consecutive years..bubble team,must be..are they doing a good job?...

I think people are expecting the Canucks to actually rebuild so they have a good young team going forward. Instead that hasn't happened.

 

[Javaman]

Even Ray Ferraro,who is an outspoken critic of the management agrees that the Canucks are going to have an upswing in the next couple of years...

You know, when the authority you reference is an outspoken critic of Canucks management, it doesn't exactly come across as an endorsement of Linden and Benning. He's a critic of them for good reason.

Yes, the Canucks are bound for an upswing at some point. As others have pointed out, when you've hit rock bottom, the only way left to go is up. Escaping the bottom 10 would count as an "upswing"... it doesn't suddenly mean the Lindenning are the least bit competent.

Hell, it's hard not to improve when you've got multiple years drafting near the top of each round.

 

[y2kcanucks]

You know, when the authority you reference is an outspoken critic of Canucks management, it doesn't exactly come across as an endorsement of Linden and Benning. He's a critic of them for good reason.

Yes, the Canucks are bound for an upswing at some point. As others have pointed out, when you've hit rock bottom, the only way left to go is up. Escaping the bottom 10 would count as an "upswing"... it doesn't suddenly mean the Lindenning are the least bit competent.

Hell, it's hard not to improve when you've got multiple years drafting near the top of each round.

Some people just can't grasp the simple concept of the difference between rebuilding and simply being a bad team.