The Race for the Calder Trophy

[Hischier and Hughes]

Who discredited it? All I simply said was that he played with legit NHLers and talent after you seemed to be claiming he played with no one.

 

[Hawkaholic]

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ok

 

[FLAMESFAN]

There is a max age, but as long as you qualify, age isn't part of the criteria, which is my point.

The award is given "to the player selected as the most proficient in his first year of competition in the National Hockey League".

So no, age should not be a factor when deciding between eligible players.

So the question is, why was that rule brought in? Because a more mature player has is a very bing advantage. Age for sure plays a role. All things equal, it should be the deciding factor.

 

[Regal]

Could have saved some time and instead wrote "Im refusing to budge my position on the subject, no matter what reasoning is provided to me". Forum boards do tend to be about opinions, yes! Though, since I am new here, perhaps I have misunderstood the assignment

Crosby had the greatest rookie year in the history of hockey; not sure how someone can so easily discredit that, but to each their own I suppose

It was probably the best rookie year right out of the draft, but not the best rookie year overall considering he didn’t win the Calder in his own year

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I don't really care about Brodin.

My point was that defensive defenseman get overlooked for the Calder because voters over value points. You quoted my post where I highlighted an example of that (Brodin)

Do you vote for the Calder? Because I guarantee those that do, take age into the equation if it's a close vote.

Just because they do, doesn't mean they should. My entire point is that the voting for the award is flawed, and that the Calder winner is not always the best rookie.

And how do you quantify best? To some, maybe best is who put up the most points, and they don't take into account your analytics or other team based statistics.

Putting up the most points does not mean a player is the best.

A top pairing shut down dman is more valuable than a 50 point middle 2nd line winger. Make a poll if you want.

Whats more impressive, being in on 40% of your teams total goals, or being a really good defensive Dman?

Well first off, the Calder is rewarded to the best rookie, not the most impressive.

Secondly, if the player scoring on 40% his team's goals is a complete defensive liability, like Bedard is, that really hurts his case. And if the defensive dman is his team's #1 and creating a fair amount of offense to boot, I would take the dman.

If I had to add a player right now for a cup run, I would add Faber. Guys who don't play both sides of the ice aren't that helpful in tight games.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

It was probably the best rookie year right out of the draft, but not the best rookie year overall considering he didn’t win the Calder in his own year

Good distinction - though Id say (personally) they are mutually-inclusive in the sense that him being 18 and doing what he did, with the 2nd worst team in the league, to me makes it the most impressive

I suppose your point also go towards one of the conversations at hand about age being a factor

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

So the question is, why was that rule brought in? Because a more mature player has is a very bing advantage. Age for sure plays a role. All things equal, it should be the deciding factor.

All things equal, they should share the trophy. Or look for more context.

 

[FLAMESFAN]

All things equal, they should share the trophy. Or look for more context.

But you do not argue the advantage a more mature player has, correct?
Voters do take this into account, and always have. Even if its not the primary aspect of determining the award.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

You say this, but you have no idea what voters are taking into consideration for the award. I guarantee if Player A who is 25 scores 60pts, and player B who is 18 scores 50pts, that Player B would win the award.

That is completely hypothetical. You can't guarantee that, and actually I think you'd probably be wrong there.

In 2021-22, 24 year old Bunting finished 3rd in Calder voting with 63 points, while 19 year old Lucas Raymond finished 4th in voting with 57 points.

But you do not argue the advantage a more mature player has, correct?
Voters do take this into account, and always have. Even if its not the primary aspect of determining the award.

Sure it's an advantage, but the award is for the best rookie, not the best rookie for his age.
Voters taking it into account only further proves my broader point, that the Calder doesn't always go to the best rookie, even though its supposed to.

 

[Regal]

You say this, but you have no idea what voters are taking into consideration for the award. I guarantee if Player A who is 25 scores 60pts, and player B who is 18 scores 50pts, that Player B would win the award.

Two years ago, 26 yo Bunting finished 3rd in Calder voting with 63 points, while flanking Matthews (the Hart winner) and Marner, while 19 yo Raymond finished 4th (with considerably fewer votes), with 57 points while playing with Larkin and Bertuzzi. I think they might consider it slightly, but in general it doesn’t seem to factor in highly in the voting.

 

[Hawkaholic]

My point was that defensive defenseman get overlooked for the Calder because voters over value points. You quoted my post where I highlighted an example of that (Brodin)


Just because they do, doesn't mean they should. My entire point is that the voting for the award is flawed, and that the Calder winner is not always the best rookie.


Putting up the most points does not mean a player is the best.

A top pairing shut down dman is more valuable than a 50 point middle 2nd line winger. Make a poll if you want.


Well first off, the Calder is rewarded to the best rookie, not the most impressive.

Secondly, if the player scoring on 40% his team's goals is a complete defensive liability, like Bedard is, that really hurts his case. And if the defensive dman is his team's #1 and creating a fair amount of offense to boot, I would take the dman.

If I had to add a player right now for a cup run, I would add Faber. Guys who don't play both sides of the ice aren't that helpful in tight games.

And they should, its more impressive to me for a player to put up a boat load of points than it is to be a really good defensive player. Being the best, is completely subjective to the voters, and the voters tend to place point totals ahead of how you play defensively.

If a player is scoring 40% of his teams goals, I don't care how they play defensively, and Bedard isn't a complete liability. He makes mistakes, but he's not floating around in the defensive zone or hanging out at the red line waiting for passes like Ovechkin circa 2008. You would take the Dman, sure, I would take the 18 year old who is in on the scoring of 40% of his teams goals with absolutely no one top play with.

No one cares who you would take for a Cup run.

Two years ago, 26 yo Bunting finished 3rd in Calder voting with 63 points, while flanking Matthews (the Hart winner) and Marner, while 19 yo Raymond finished 4th (with considerably fewer votes), with 57 points while playing with Larkin and Bertuzzi. I think they might consider it slightly, but in general it doesn’t seem to factor in highly in the voting.

Thats partially to do with Leaf bias IMO (it's real, don't try to convince me it's not). Zegras finished ahead of him while being worse defensively and less pts.

 

[tfwnogf]

Bedard, literal All-Star. Inevitable Calder winner.

 

[Hawkaholic]

In 2021-22, 24 year old Bunting finished 3rd in Calder voting with 63 points, while 19 year old Lucas Raymond finished 4th in voting with 57 points.

And who finished ahead of Bunting with less pts and being crappier defensively? Zegras.

 

[FLAMESFAN]

Two years ago, 26 yo Bunting finished 3rd in Calder voting with 63 points, while flanking Matthews (the Hart winner) and Marner, while 19 yo Raymond finished 4th (with considerably fewer votes), with 57 points while playing with Larkin and Bertuzzi. I think they might consider it slightly, but in general it doesn’t seem to factor in highly in the voting.

That was the Toronto effect.

That is completely hypothetical. You can't guarantee that, and actually I think you'd probably be wrong there.

In 2021-22, 24 year old Bunting finished 3rd in Calder voting with 63 points, while 19 year old Lucas Raymond finished 4th in voting with 57 points.


Sure it's an advantage, but the award is for the best rookie, not the best rookie for his age.
Voters taking it into account only further proves my broader point, that the Calder doesn't always go to the best rookie, even though its supposed to.

The voters determined who the best rookie is/was. Not fans on an internet forum.

Bedard, literal All-Star. Inevitable Calder winner.

Youngest All Star in NHL history.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

And they should, its more impressive to me for a player to put up a boat load of points than it is to be a really good defensive player. Being the best, is completely subjective to the voters, and the voters tend to place point totals ahead of how you play defensively.

That's because the majority of voters don't actually watch the games of other teams. Nyquist has more points than Jaccob Slavin, would you take him over Slavin?

If a player is scoring 40% of his teams goals, I don't care how they play defensively

Well you'd probably be in the minority of NHL coaches.

No one cares who you would take for a Cup run.

I am providing my opinion in a thread about the best rookie. Sorry it upsets you.

 

[Mad Dog Tannen]

How is there so much engagement for a thread about the least exciting trophy race. It’s bedard va the field and it’s not even close.

The race is basically this:

No offence to wild fans with the reference. This isn’t a comment about mental disabilities. Just a reference to a dated movie that I neither condone or admonish.

 

[Hawkaholic]

That's because the majority of voters don't actually watch the games of other teams. Nyquist has more points than Jaccob Slavin, would you take him over Slavin?


Well you'd probably be in the minority of NHL coaches.


I am providing my opinion in a thread about the best rookie. Sorry it upsets you.

Building the best team has zero to do with who the best performing rookie is. We aren't talking about Nyqvist and Slavin right now, we are talking about first year players and who is the most impressive rookie.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

And who finished ahead of Bunting with less pts and being crappier defensively? Zegras.

You mean the guy who wasn't playing with Matthews and Marner and finished with a higher GPG and higher PPG?

 

[tfwnogf]

Youngest All Star in NHL history.

b-b-but age is not relevant

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Building the best team has zero to do with who the best performing rookie is.

Building a best team is about taking the best players. Which is why I would take Faber over Bedard right now

We aren't talking about Nyqvist and Slavin right now, we are talking about first year players and who is the most impressive rookie.

You were talking about how scoring points is more impressive than playing great defense. I pointed at a very obvious flaw in your logic.

 

[Hawkaholic]

Building a best team is about taking the best players. Which is why I would take Faber over Bedard right now


You were talking about how scoring points is more impressive than playing great defense. I pointed at a very obvious flaw in your logic.

TEAM, but not best player. If I needed someone to score goals or create plays, I take Bedard every single day. If I needed a Dman to eat mins, I take Faber. We aren't talking about teams.

I would take Bedard over Faber quite easily if he got to play on the Wild.

I think some of you don't realize how bad Bedards teammates are.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

TEAM, but not best player. If I needed someone to score goals or create plays, I take Bedard every single day. If I needed a Dman to eat mins, I take Faber. We aren't talking about teams.

I would take Bedard over Faber quite easily if he got to play on the Wild.

I think some of you don't realize how bad Bedards teammates are.

Building the best TEAM is about taking the best PLAYERS.

If already had a Slavin, Doughty, and Hedman, and lacked scoring, sure I'd take Bedard. He's an incredibly talented offensive player.

But all else equal, I would take the steady 2 way defender who can eat up minutes over the talented one dimensional scorer.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Right or wrong (probably wrong) I do take age into account in my own thinking. For me, it's part of the context for "best".

It's why I was willing to listen to the other side in the Kaprizov vs. Robertson thing a few years ago, even though I believe the linemates thing balanced that out.

 

[ricky0034]

Chicago's top 5 in points:

Bedard
Philipp Kurashev
Jason Dickinson
Nick Foligno
Ryan Donato


that says it all right there, those other 4 guys were all in the 20-30 point range last year(and none of them has ever had more than 30 points other than Foligno who did so a decade ago)

 

[roon]

And they should, its more impressive to me for a player to put up a boat load of points than it is to be a really good defensive player. Being the best, is completely subjective to the voters, and the voters tend to place point totals ahead of how you play defensively.

If a player is scoring 40% of his teams goals, I don't care how they play defensively, and Bedard isn't a complete liability. He makes mistakes, but he's not floating around in the defensive zone or hanging out at the red line waiting for passes like Ovechkin circa 2008. You would take the Dman, sure, I would take the 18 year old who is in on the scoring of 40% of his teams goals with absolutely no one top play with.

No one cares who you would take for a Cup run.

The Edmonton Oilers since drafting McDavid say hello. All the offensive talent in the world - can't play effective defense to save their lives. Thus - they lose...over and over again in the playoffs.