Speculation: The Quest to sign Lindholm: Part II

[Off Sides]

I get how it works in this case. But a team that isn't right up against the cap probably could care less that the first year cap is higher and the following years are lower. It still only equals the total value of the contract. It could even be seen as a benefit to every team that isn't right up against the cap the first year.

I'd like to know what both sides were thinking when this was put in the CBA.

That is an interesting point.

If teams wanted to lower the cap hit in the 2nd and subsequent years of a deal, and have a higher cap hit the first year of it, it seems like they could wait to sign their RFAs.

 

[Marc the Habs Fan]

Fantasy question for those in the know, at what point should I ditch this guy and pick up someone who will be playing?

Considering McKenzie has been saying Lindholm does not have his visa and is obviously not playing anywhere right now, you have to expect he's going to need a good 10 days after he signs to rejoin the Ducks lineup. I would ditch him.

 

[KPower]

Ducks are an embarrassment to the league.

Just sign your best defenseman already.

 

[Trolfoli]

So... Ducks need to clear space. The hold up now seems to be that if Lindholm doesn't come down the Ducks can't clear enough space by just moving Fowler.
Vat: 4.875M, Has a bigger cap hit, but is right handed and harder to replace.
Fowler: 4M, Doesn't seem to be enough unless Lindholm comes down.
Stoner: 3.25M, would have to pay to dump.
Bieksa: 4M, would have to pay to dump and has a NMC.

Paying to move one of the bad contracts seems unlikely. This would make the GM look really bad having to pay to move assets after acquiring Bernier last summer and signing Bieksa to an extension. It would be admitting a mistake for the GM.

Then you're looking at moving Fowler as the next option. Moving Fowler at 4M and signing Lindholm near 6M doesn't work. Either need Lindholm to come down in price or gamble with LTIR. Also Ducks are looking for a cheap/skilled winger for a return. This is a very specific ask, as they can't take much over 900k back. That may hurt value.

The option that makes the most sense is to trade Lindholm. He's not dropping his asking price. This requires 2 assets to be moved. Lindholm has better value then Fowler so he'd get a better return. GM doesn't have to admit a mistake. Ducks have other promising young/cheap D. It allows for Vat/Fowler/Bieksa to be protected in the expansion. Despres depending on health and 7/3 or 4/4. Buying Bieksa out helps in the expansion, but with a 35+ contract the Ducks will have a 4M cap hit even with the buyout.

I'd bet on a Lindholm trade if he doesn't want to drop down to available cap space +Fowler's 4M + one roster player and run a 22 man roster. That comes out to about 5.1 to 5.2.

Edit: In other words Fowler + Stoner + promising forward (Lindholm trade) & maybe picks or Lindholm + mediocre return (Fowler trade with Stoner)

 

[JetsFan815]

Bob Murray should be fined by NHL for not allowing one of the better D-men in the league to play as a result of his extremely poor planning

 

[Burnt Biscuits]

Bob Murray should be fined by NHL for not allowing one of the better D-men in the league to play as a result of his extremely poor planning

Their is no rule or precedent to make that scenario even the least bit possible or likely. If the Ducks go through a huge chunk of the season without Lindholm there is a good chance they could miss the playoffs, which would be more harmful and costly than any such fine.

Murray has hamstrung his team through poor acquisitions and signings namely d-men acquired via trade or free agency, which is odd and kind of funny cause the Ducks are one of the best teams of late at drafting and developing d-men. There are not many teams who can boast about being able to ice a full and competent d-core just off of draft selections made in the past 8 years.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Ducks are an embarrassment to the league.

Just sign your best defenseman already.

They have been one of the more consistent teAms in the league, idk if embarrassment is the right word.

 

[Ducks Nation*]

So... Ducks need to clear space. The hold up now seems to be that if Lindholm doesn't come down the Ducks can't clear enough space by just moving Fowler.
Vat: 4.875M, Has a bigger cap hit, but is right handed and harder to replace.
Fowler: 4M, Doesn't seem to be enough unless Lindholm comes down.
Stoner: 3.25M, would have to pay to dump.
Bieksa: 4M, would have to pay to dump and has a NMC.

Paying to move one of the bad contracts seems unlikely. This would make the GM look really bad having to pay to move assets after acquiring Bernier last summer and signing Bieksa to an extension. It would be admitting a mistake for the GM.

Then you're looking at moving Fowler as the next option. Moving Fowler at 4M and signing Lindholm near 6M doesn't work. Either need Lindholm to come down in price or gamble with LTIR. Also Ducks are looking for a cheap/skilled winger for a return. This is a very specific ask, as they can't take much over 900k back. That may hurt value.

The option that makes the most sense is to trade Lindholm. He's not dropping his asking price. This requires 2 assets to be moved. Lindholm has better value then Fowler so he'd get a better return. GM doesn't have to admit a mistake. Ducks have other promising young/cheap D. It allows for Vat/Fowler/Bieksa to be protected in the expansion. Despres depending on health and 7/3 or 4/4. Buying Bieksa out helps in the expansion, but with a 35+ contract the Ducks will have a 4M cap hit even with the buyout.

I'd bet on a Lindholm trade if he doesn't want to drop down to available cap space +Fowler's 4M + one roster player and run a 22 man roster. That comes out to about 5.1 to 5.2.

Edit: In other words Fowler + Stoner + promising forward (Lindholm trade) & maybe picks or Lindholm + mediocre return (Fowler trade with Stoner)

or we could just LTIR Depres and Thompson and send Stoner down as well as our AHL players that are currently playing and almost have enough to pay Lindholm.

or LTIR Depres and Thompson and trade Stoner with a prospect and have way more than enough.

or LTIR Depres and Thompson and trade Fowler for a young cheap top 6 forward plus a pick and have a lot more than enough.

Stop trolling, you're name fits perfect.

 

[SmokeyDuck]

Bob plays hardball at all the wrong times. Then he has times where he floats multiyear 3+ million dollar contracts to pylons. Take me off this wild ride.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

or we could just LTIR Depres and Thompson and send Stoner down as well as our AHL players that are currently playing and almost have enough to pay Lindholm.

or LTIR Depres and Thompson and trade Stoner with a prospect and have way more than enough.

or LTIR Depres and Thompson and trade Fowler for a young cheap top 6 forward plus a pick and have a lot more than enough.

Stop trolling, you're name fits perfect.

Then why isn't any of that done? Particularly the 1st option

 

[Ducks Nation*]

Then why isn't any of that done? Particularly the 1st option

Because they obviously are not seeing eye to eye with the contract negotiations? They aren't going to give him whatever he wants.

 

[bsbarmchairgm]

Here's a proposal from a rookie Rangers fan, so please bear with me..., but perhaps Anaheim can save up to 5M in CAP & 4M in salary expenditure and still get something back on Fowler.
I have no intentions to insult anyone with this, sorry if I do.

From what I understand Anaheim would like more wingers but doesn't want to acquire any defensemen.

NYR doesn't primarily need LHD, but I hope Fowler could be a trade chip to acquire Trouba, and this is the motivation from the Rangers perspective.


To NYR:
[Fowler, saves ANA 4M both for this year and the next]
+ [Boll, saves ANA 900K yearly for 2 seasons]
+ [Holzer, saves ANA 700K this season]
+ [either Thompson 650K retained, or if ANA retains 2.3M on Stoner, would save 950K salary]


To ANA:
[Miller or (Pirri + Fast) or (Pirri/Fast + 2018 2nd rounder?)]
+ [Jensen(two-way 600K/150K) and/or Hrivik(two-way 600K/175K)]
+ [Glass, 1.45M CAP & 1M salary for this year only]


Moving Fowler, Holzer, Boll, and either Thompson/Stoner would save Anaheim 6.55M in salary expenditure.
By taking on just one of Pirri/Fast, and sending Jensen/Hrivik/Glass to AHL, the added CAP would be ~1.5M and the added salary would be ~2.3M.
Acquiring Miller, with Jensen/Hrivik/Glass in the AHL, the added CAP sums up to ~3.25M and the salaries increase with ~4.1M.


Depending on the players traded, Rangers may on the other hand even be forced to temporarily send Skjei to AHL, and would probably waive/IR all acquired players not named Fowler.

(Numbers are taken from capfriendly.com)

 

[JetsFan815]

or we could just LTIR Depres and Thompson and send Stoner down as well as our AHL players that are currently playing and almost have enough to pay Lindholm.

or LTIR Depres and Thompson and trade Stoner with a prospect and have way more than enough.

or LTIR Depres and Thompson and trade Fowler for a young cheap top 6 forward plus a pick and have a lot more than enough.

Stop trolling, you're name fits perfect.

LOL @ LTIR Despres. You think LTIR is your personal 'get out of jail free card'?

 

[12ozPapa]

Whoa whoa, you mean to tell me that Murray signing Clayton Stoner and Kevin Bieksa is NOT playing out well?

This is unreal.

I'm sorry - but I am a hockey fan, that's it - a fan. When the Stoner signing occurred, I immediately thought of our future D and how it would mess all of that up. Then Bob apparently felt he needed to screw the team over more and traded for Bieksa and gave him a terrible contract WITH a NMC.

Lindholm should ask for a trade - GM has no clue what to do, coach is a dinosaur. If I am one of the best young d-men in the game looking for a long term contract, Ducks are bottom 10 on my list of places to sign.

Thanks Bob!

 

[12ozPapa]

LOL @ LTIR Despres. You think LTIR is your personal 'get out of jail free card'?

LOL @ your comment.

Despres apparently has pretty serious concussion issues. He will be out (presumably) a very long time.

Why is LTIR so funny in this scenario? (not being snarky - honest question)

 

[Mad Brills*]

It's because people think LTIR is free cap space.

It's not.

 

[WesMcCauley]

Bob plays hardball at all the wrong times. Then he has times where he floats multiyear 3+ million dollar contracts to pylons. Take me off this wild ride.

I just dont get how they could end up like this. You dont resign Bieksa,Vatanen and Rakell before Lindholm. You dont trade for a backup Who is average at best Who carries a 4+mill cap hit. Who is doing the math? Use Tokarski or something as the backup and pay Lindholm. Trading for Bernier was as dumb as it gets in the position they Are in. Bad contracts happens,specially for ufa's but not when you know that Bieksa isnt very good and they have tons of d-prospects. Same with Bernier, why trade for a backup with that high of a cap hit? Its just horrible work by the GM, shouldnt be possible to make thoose decisions....

 

[WhatTheDuck]

Then why isn't any of that done? Particularly the 1st option

Lindholm and the Ducks have not agreed on a contract yet - that's the hold up here.

It's very likely that Murray already knows how he will fit him in, and has a move ready to go when they agree to terms with Lindholm. Until then, there's no reason to move another player off the roster.

 

[liquiduck]

I just dont get how they could end up like this. You dont resign Bieksa,Vatanen and Rakell before Lindholm. You dont trade for a backup Who is average at best Who carries a 4+mill cap hit. Who is doing the math? Use Tokarski or something as the backup and pay Lindholm. Trading for Bernier was as dumb as it gets in the position they Are in. Bad contracts happens,specially for ufa's but not when you know that Bieksa isnt very good and they have tons of d-prospects. Same with Bernier, why trade for a backup with that high of a cap hit? Its just horrible work by the GM, shouldnt be possible to make thoose decisions....

So the team is just supposed to wait for Lindholm and his agent before they sign other people? Because that makes sense? Why aren't people saying maybe Lindholm should've resigned back in July or August? There's two sides of the coin here, but opposing fans only focus on one side. BM and HL simply haven't agreed to a contract yet. Lemieux isn't helping the situation any.

The team felt they needed another semi capable goalie behind Gibson given his inexperience and injury history. Stoner was signed before Vats, Lindholm, Manson, Theodore, Montour, and Larsson were even in the conversation of being impact players with the ducks. Bieksa's extension was a mistake. They happen. The team obviously felt like he was still a capable player, and for all the crap he gets, he still played a top 4 role last year on a pretty good defense. He's more of a #5 now. Why did the Rangers hand Girardi his current contract? GM's aren't perfect.

 

[liquiduck]

It's because people think LTIR is free cap space.

It's not.

Nobody thinks it's free cap space. Despres may be out for the year. If Anaheim uses LTIR to go over the cap it will affect us next year in overages, but it would be a fix for this season.

 

[playasRus]

Isn't BM in a bind no matter what? Can't sign Lindholm and go over the cap or there's a penalty. Needs to sign Lindholm early so theres less bonus cap penalty.\

They were saying that it's 30k penalty per day. Which means since it's been 10 days that if he signed to a 5.3million/year contract,iti'd be a 5.6million cap hit.

 

[big ape]

Klefbom for Lindholm
Now if you look at Klef's salary for 7 years at 4.1 mil , it would be very hard for the oilers to be convinced to move him. He is playing very good and his upside is climbing. Not that I want to move him but I just wonder if his salary and play would be enough to make this deal a go for Anaheim. In no way do I say or think Klef is as good as Lindholm today ,but that could change. Would a sweetheart contract like Klef's be enough to equal out value of the players. Just curious.

 

[liquiduck]

Klefbom for Lindholm
Now if you look at Klef's salary for 7 years at 4.1 mil , it would be very hard for the oilers to be convinced to move him. He is playing very good and his upside is climbing. Not that I want to move him but I just wonder if his salary and play would be enough to make this deal a go for Anaheim. In no way do I say or think Klef is as good as Lindholm today ,but that could change. Would a sweetheart contract be enough for the ducks to consider.

It's not a bad idea, but I don't see that being a vaible solution. Anaheim ins't moving him to a division rival, even if they did decide its time to move him.

 

[liquiduck]

Isn't BM in a bind no matter what? Can't sign Lindholm and go over the cap or there's a penalty. Needs to sign Lindholm early so theres less bonus cap penalty.\

They were saying that it's 30k penalty per day. Which means since it's been 10 days that if he signed to a 5.3million/year contract,iti'd be a 5.6million cap hit.

He could sign Lindholm right now if they played the LTIR card and sent a few guys donw. The probelm is the two sides still haven't agreed on a contract.

 

[Ducks in a row]

Klefbom for Lindholm
Now if you look at Klef's salary for 7 years at 4.1 mil , it would be very hard for the oilers to be convinced to move him. He is playing very good and his upside is climbing. Not that I want to move him but I just wonder if his salary and play would be enough to make this deal a go for Anaheim. In no way do I say or think Klef is as good as Lindholm today ,but that could change. Would a sweetheart contract like Klef's be enough to equal out value of the players. Just curious.

We are not trading Lindholm to division rival Oilers