OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: They Killed Kenny!

[Coastal Kev]

Canada and anyone defending him in the organization should, but won't, be fired tomorrow. Hire Mark Whipple..

Who ever is responsible for Gunnar having a roster spot should lose their job tomorrow.

Baby steps

 

[ChaosAgent]

Here is how the OL has ranked this year according to PFF:

-Cole: 47.0 grade, 33/36 ranked C
-Seumalo: 62.5 grade, 30/76 G
-Daniels: 55.9 grade, 44/76 G
-Herbig: 49.4 grade, 57/76 G
-Jones: 58.4 grade, 46/72 T
-Okorafor: 49.9 grade, 63/72 T
-Moore Jr: 29.3 grade, 72/72 T

But yes, it's only a problem with Pickett and Canada! There is nothing else wrong here!



Go look at the actual teams who have won recently. Which ones of them picked their QB while everything else was a mess and had success?

The most successful team in recent years has been the Chiefs, who already had a great team and replaced Smith with Mahomes. The new greatest team looks like it's going to be SF, who already had a great team and replaced Garoppolo with Purdy. Both of the Steelers SB wins under Ben were the same exact strategy, he replaced Maddox and was surrounded by an insane supporting cast. Hell, even the Patriots going from Bledsoe to Brady fits this too. The Rams had a great team with Goff, then upgraded from Goff to Stafford and only won after that.

Why do you build the team up first before getting a QB? Because it has shown that you're far more likely to win by doing that than going the other way. Look at how Indy ruined Luck, who was a generational QB prospect, because they didn't support him. Look at how Detroit failed with Stafford and it took Stafford to going to an actually good team for him to win.

The Steelers are in the mess they're in right now because they refused to rebuild the offense after Ben and instead just tried to plug and play the new draft picks, while doing nothing to address the issues on the team. This team has had the same exact problems with the running game and OL since like 2018, and has had the same issues with the passing game since Ben retired. Drafting Harris and Pickett back-to-back years was just entirely shortsighted decision making with this team when they needed to make large fundamental changes to the offense. At this point, trying to get a new QB to replace Pickett would be the same exact thing: a deluded organization who fails to realize they need to make major changes to have success in the future.

The shortsighted decisions of trying to win-now are why the team is in its painfully mediocre state, with massive flaws on the team and only being bailed out by a few ultra talented pieces. These ideas of "we're just a new QB and new OC away from winning!" is just kicking the can down the road for actually addressing those massive flaws, and those massive flaws are what will prevent the team from winning again anytime soon.

I don't want to keep Pickett as the starter because I think Pickett is great and should be the starter. I want them to keep Pickett as the starter so they focus on fixing the fundamental issues on the offense, then they can kick Pickett to the curb for a new QB.

Mahomes - drafted by a team that was on the playoff fringes.
Burrow - drafted 1OA. Not a good team around him.
Herbert - drafted top 10. Not a good team around him.
Tua - drafted Top 10. Not a good team around him.
Ben Roethlisberger - "insane supporting cast?" They were 6-10 before he got there!

The Rams - extremely thin team with huge defensive commitments to Donald and Ramsay. Aside from McVay being a genius, this was not remotely a loaded offensive team until Stafford got there.

If you want to argue that we won't be able to get anyone great drafting 17th or whatever, fine. But if a guy falls and he's a top QB prospect, we should be all over it.

Cowher thought as you did and didn't want to take Big Ben. He was overruled.

And yes, if we had an above-average QB and OC we would be winning a lot. As we now have a below-average QB and the worst OC, we'll hover around .500 again.

 

[ChaosAgent]

It wasn't a mistake to take Pickett. It was a mistake to have Canada as OC because now we can't make a great evaluation on Pickett. It would be amazing if Pickett was a league-average QB on a rookie contract. We could be legit contenders if that were true. There was some reason to think that with his age he would be extremely advanced coming out.

Even adjusting for the "his OC belongs coaching D3" factor, Pickett is showing issues in: pocket awareness, decision-making, accuracy. Those are some pretty big issues. Today he was saved by George Pickens mossing people the entire game.

I'm not 100% opposed to letting Kenny be the guy with a new OC next year, but the clock is ticking on TJ Watt's dominance. We need a good NFL offense, pronto.

 

[pistolpete11]

Drafting Pickett was a mistake. Drafting Harris was a mistake. Hell, even drafting Friermuth, who I love as a player, was a mistake. This team used to understand that you build a team from the inside out. They lost the plot when they were trying to hang on for Ben. As it is now, the O-line and D-line are not good enough.

But what's done is done. Going forward, the first step is to fire Canada NOW! Use the rest of the season to evaluate not only Pickett and Harris, but the rest of the offense as well.

 

[JTG]

Missed this one today. Seems like a real...barn burner.

 

[MrBrightside]

3 1/2 hours later and I'm still stunned they won that game.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Drafting Pickett was a mistake. Drafting Harris was a mistake. Hell, even drafting Friermuth, who I love as a player, was a mistake. This team used to understand that you build a team from the inside out. They lost the plot when they were trying to hang on for Ben. As it is now, the O-line and D-line are not good enough.

But what's done is done. Going forward, the first step is to fire Canada NOW! Use the rest of the season to evaluate not only Pickett and Harris, but the rest of the offense as well.

The DL is without Heyward, who they for better or worse have committed tremendous money to. They are also trying to rush the passer more than stopping the run. They have also been without Leal who is IMO taking a step forward.

The OL has been bad but they were much, much better today. It's hard to block people when the opposing team has 8-9 in the box on every play. Semuelo and Cole have been very disappointing, though.

The Bush and especially the Harris picks were huge mistakes, but the Pickett move was ok. If we drafted OL in the 1st round in 2021, I don't think it would be under a microscope for 2022.

 

[pistolpete11]

It wasn't a mistake to take Pickett. It was a mistake to have Canada as OC because now we can't make a great evaluation on Pickett. It would be amazing if Pickett was a league-average QB on a rookie contract. We could be legit contenders if that were true. There was some reason to think that with his age he would be extremely advanced coming out.

Even adjusting for the "his OC belongs coaching D3" factor, Pickett is showing issues in: pocket awareness, decision-making, accuracy. Those are some pretty big issues. Today he was saved by George Pickens mossing people the entire game.

I'm not 100% opposed to letting Kenny be the guy with a new OC next year, but the clock is ticking on TJ Watt's dominance. We need a good NFL offense, pronto.

This is the point I think everyone can agree on.

I said it a few days ago, but living in Michigan, everybody HATED Goff his first year with the Lions. They fired their OC after the first year and then all of a sudden Goff was a Pro Bowler again and is off to another great start this year. Having the talent is most important, but bad coaching can kill even good talent.

As I said above, fire Canada now. See what it's like with a new OC calling the plays. If he continues to struggle, then fine. You have your answer. But if they just wait until the offseason they are either a) going to waste another draft pick on a QB when you don't really know that was the issue or, more likely, b) going to use Canada as the scapegoat.

 

[Josey Wales]

Missed this one today. Seems like a real...barn burner.

It set Football back 30 Years

 

[Coastal Kev]

Drafting Pickett was a mistake. Drafting Harris was a mistake. Hell, even drafting Friermuth, who I love as a player, was a mistake. This team used to understand that you build a team from the inside out. They lost the plot when they were trying to hang on for Ben. As it is now, the O-line and D-line are not good enough.

But what's done is done. Going forward, the first step is to fire Canada NOW! Use the rest of the season to evaluate not only Pickett and Harris, but the rest of the offense as well.

Freirmuth is in his 3rd year and he is severely lacking about 15lbs of muscle. Unless he hits the gym soon, he'll never add up to much.

 

[ChaosAgent]

This is the point I think everyone can agree on.

I said it a few days ago, but living in Michigan, everybody HATED Goff his first year with the Lions. They fired their OC after the first year and then all of a sudden Goff was a Pro Bowler again and is off to another great start this year. Having the talent is most important, but bad coaching can kill even good talent.

As I said above, fire Canada now. See what it's like with a new OC calling the plays. If he continues to struggle, then fine. You have your answer. But if they just wait until the offseason they are either a) going to waste another draft pick on a QB when you don't really know that was the issue or, more likely, b) going to use Canada as the scapegoat.

I'd also like to evaluate him with Diontae as a safety valve. Diontae is always open.

We'll see if they replace Canada with Sullivan. Hope so. But if it doesn't get better Kenny cannot be the guaranteed starter next year.

As far as evaluating Harris - nah, that's done. He's just a guy. Warren should be seeing 70% of snaps.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

I'd also like to evaluate him with Diontae as a safety valve. Diontae is always open.

We'll see if they replace Canada with Sullivan. Hope so. But if it doesn't get better Kenny cannot be the guaranteed starter next year.

As far as evaluating Harris - nah, that's done. He's just a guy. Warren should be seeing 70% of snaps.

Najee still the better player and other teams game plan to stop him not warren

 

[MrBrightside]

Najee still the better player and other teams game plan to stop him not warren

Due, you can admit you're wrong about this. No one in the world game plans to stop Najee Harris. They may load the box because they don't fear the Steelers' intermediate or deep passing games but the notion that any defensive coordinator prioritizes stopping Najee Harris is laughable.

 

[LeafSteel]

What a crappy situation to be in.

Ordinarily a win over the Ravens would be a high for me, but the fact the the Steelers are fine to splutter along and win games in spite of their offense instead of because of it just makes wins losses in the long run.

We can win ugly but we aren’t going to win anything meaningful. Even if we stumble into the Playoffs, who are we beating from KC, Buffalo, and even Miami.

It’s so obvious what needs to happen, but we have gutless leadership and it feels like The Standard is now The Mediocre.

It really sucks to watch this, to be honest.

40+ years as a Steelers fan and I don’t recall ever feeling like this before.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Lol. End zone drops, would be touchdown drop and Flowers fell down on a would be 60 yard play. Stahp

Flowers fell down because the pass was horribly inaccurate

 

[Andy99]

Missed this one today. Seems like a real...barn burner.

Don’t bother watching the first three quarters if you dvr’d it…just skip to the fourth…

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

What a crappy situation to be in.

Ordinarily a win over the Ravens would be a high for me, but the fact the the Steelers are fine to splutter along and win games in spite of their offense instead of because of it just makes wins losses in the long run.

We can win ugly but we aren’t going to win anything meaningful. Even if we stumble into the Playoffs, who are we beating from KC, Buffalo, and even Miami.

It’s so obvious what needs to happen, but we have gutless leadership and it feels like The Standard is now The Mediocre.

It really sucks to watch this, to be honest.

40+ years as a Steelers fan and I don’t recall ever feeling like this before.

Steelers have been in this situation for the better part of a decade, they just don’t have Roth around anymore to mask Tomlin’s incompetence.

If it makes you feel better, Tomlin is wasting another HOF career with Watt, so at least Roth wasn’t the only one.

Don’t bother watching the first three quarters of you dvr’d it…just skip to the fourth…

Just watch the Mud Bowl. Way more fun.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Mahomes - drafted by a team that was on the playoff fringes.
Burrow - drafted 1OA. Not a good team around him.
Herbert - drafted top 10. Not a good team around him.
Tua - drafted Top 10. Not a good team around him.
Ben Roethlisberger - "insane supporting cast?" They were 6-10 before he got there!

The Rams - extremely thin team with huge defensive commitments to Donald and Ramsay. Aside from McVay being a genius, this was not remotely a loaded offensive team until Stafford got there.

If you want to argue that we won't be able to get anyone great drafting 17th or whatever, fine. But if a guy falls and he's a top QB prospect, we should be all over it.

Cowher thought as you did and didn't want to take Big Ben. He was overruled.

And yes, if we had an above-average QB and OC we would be winning a lot. As we now have a below-average QB and the worst OC, we'll hover around .500 again.

The Chiefs had made the playoffs the 3 seasons prior to Mahomes becoming the starter.

And yes, the 2004 Steelers were unbelievably stacked at every position aside from QB. I can't believe a Steelers fan is arguing this

 

[ChaosAgent]

The Chiefs had made the playoffs the 3 seasons prior to Mahomes becoming the starter.

And yes, the 2004 Steelers were unbelievably stacked at every position aside from QB. I can't believe a Steelers fan is arguing this

An unbelievably stacked except QB team can't go 6-10.

Stacked in hindsight because of the titles they won once the QB arrived.

But it's cool. We'll just count on another year of the clutch drives to win 13-12. Sustainable.

The 2003 Steelers averaged 3.3 yards per rushing attempt. That is unbelievably bad. Clearly they weren't waiting on a great running game.

2003 NFL Standings & Team Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Check out the 2003 NFL Standings & Team Stats including AFC and NFC results and standings on Pro-football-reference.com

www.pro-football-reference.com

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Due, you can admit you're wrong about this. No one in the world game plans to stop Najee Harris. They may load the box because they don't fear the Steelers' intermediate or deep passing games but the notion that any defensive coordinator prioritizes stopping Najee Harris is laughable.

Steeler Nation: Pittsburgh Steelers News, Rumors, & More

Your best source for quality Pittsburgh Steelers news, rumors, analysis, stats and scores from your SteelerNation home

www.steelernation.com

 

[metalan2]

Mahomes - drafted by a team that was on the playoff fringes.
Burrow - drafted 1OA. Not a good team around him.
Herbert - drafted top 10. Not a good team around him.
Tua - drafted Top 10. Not a good team around him.
Ben Roethlisberger - "insane supporting cast?" They were 6-10 before he got there!

The Rams - extremely thin team with huge defensive commitments to Donald and Ramsay. Aside from McVay being a genius, this was not remotely a loaded offensive team until Stafford got there.

If you want to argue that we won't be able to get anyone great drafting 17th or whatever, fine. But if a guy falls and he's a top QB prospect, we should be all over it.

Cowher thought as you did and didn't want to take Big Ben. He was overruled.

And yes, if we had an above-average QB and OC we would be winning a lot. As we now have a below-average QB and the worst OC, we'll hover around .500 again.

Yep. You need a franchise QB. That's literally it, the rest falls into place. Even Tomlin couldn't f*** that up that bad.

 

[Josey Wales]

Yep. You need a franchise QB. That's literally it, the rest falls into place. Even Tomlin couldn't f*** that up that bad.

Big Ben Says Hi

 

[ChaosAgent]

Steeler Nation: Pittsburgh Steelers News, Rumors, & More

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www.steelernation.com

I don't really care what these things say.
Harris is a name and a story. Which is unfortunately why we took him.
But he is closer to Benny Snell than a franchise RB, and if he wasn't a 1st rounder he would be fighting it out with McFarland.
He lacks vision, quickness, and runs too upright. He struggles to fall forward (one of his very worst attributes).
He just isn't good.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

An unbelievably stacked except QB team can't go 6-10.

Stacked in hindsight because of the titles they won once the QB arrived.

But it's cool. We'll just count on another year of the clutch drives to win 13-12. Sustainable.

The 2003 Steelers averaged 3.3 yards per rushing attempt. That is unbelievably bad. Clearly they weren't waiting on a great running game.

2003 NFL Standings & Team Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Check out the 2003 NFL Standings & Team Stats including AFC and NFC results and standings on Pro-football-reference.com

www.pro-football-reference.com

So the Steelers being 2nd in rushing the following year was because of their rookie game-manager QB, not because they had Staley instead of the bum Zeroue and a healthy Marvel Smith? Sure thing.

And on defense, finally having Townsend play instead of the worst CB duo in the league, and Polamalu starting and Farrior being possibly the best defensive player in the league that year made a huge difference

 

[ChaosAgent]

So the Steelers being 2nd in rushing the following year was because of their rookie game-manager QB, not because they had Staley instead of the bum Zeroue and a healthy Marvel Smith? Sure thing.

And on defense, finally having Townsend play instead of the worst CB duo in the league, and Polamalu starting and Farrior being possibly the best defensive player in the league that year made a huge difference

Staley instead of Bettis, who was incredibly inefficient, helped.

But there were no indications that the 2003 Steelers were a juggernaut in waiting. Cowher wanted to draft OL instead of Ben, so clearly he thought some things needed cleaning up.

Ben unlocked the team.

To say "the team could comfortably draft a QB because they knew Deshea Townsend was better than Chad Scott" is uhhhhh, something. Or that they knew James Farrior would be an All Pro.

How about we evaluate positions we can improve. If QB is one of them (it is), let's talk about upgrading it.