OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: They Killed Kenny!

[ChaosAgent]

Steelers fans are way too harsh on Pickett at this point. People fully acknowledge the OL sucks, the running game sucks and the OC sucks, so how would any QB in Pickett's position have any sort of success? Not only that, but they're also dealing with Johnson and Freiermuth out as well.

I don't think Pickett is anything more than a lower level starter at this point with average starter upside, but there are extremely few QBs who would look good in this offensive system. Pickett is a system QB on a team with a completely f***ed up offensive system.

It's the same issue that Mac Jones is running into in New England right now. Jones made the pro-bowl in his rookie year and finished 2nd in ROY voting, yet he's 1-4 and just got blown out 34-0 right now.

Because if he has lower level starter upside, we are going nowhere. It doesn't matter if Canada is gone.

Huge LOL on blaming the offensive line today. They were good. They vastly outplayed Baltimore's.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

The other team won’t have 7 drops every game, so it’s obvious this was another lucky ass win that continues to allow Tomlin cover.

Rare positives can be found IMHO…

- KP making another clutch play agt the Ravens
- Jones was locking down his side when I watched him
- JPJ makes another big play
- Pickens is the real deal

However, this offense can’t go on like this with yet another abysmal first half and doing just barely enough to pull out a win.

What an embarrassing shit show week after week.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

The bad part about this is that blame Canada all that you want to. Rightly so.

But make no mistake. This is Tomlin football. He is convinced that it is still the 50s and 60s and winning games 6 to 3 is the way to go.

Today will only convince him of that more.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Because if he has lower level starter upside, we are going nowhere. It doesn't matter if Canada is gone.

His upside has always been that though. He was viewed to have upside like Cousins, Carr or Garoppolo when he was drafted and I don't think that has changed much.

Even if Pickett ends up meeting his upside, I ultimately don't think that will be good enough to win a super bowl with. So I definitely agree there. But with that being said, it's way too early to try to pull the plug on him because he just isn't getting the support he needs from the rest of his team.

What I think they should do is continue building up the offense supporting cast around Pickett, and when you finally have that fixed, then you go find your next franchise QB. Have Pickett be the new Maddox as your building up the team around him and then replace Pickett with the new Ben when the team is ready to legitimately contend.

 

[ChaosAgent]

His upside has always been that though. He was viewed to have upside like Cousins, Carr or Garoppolo when he was drafted and I don't think that has changed much.

Even if Pickett ends up meeting his upside, I ultimately don't think that will be good enough to win a super bowl with. So I definitely agree there. But with that being said, it's way too early to try to pull the plug on him because he just isn't getting the support he needs from the rest of his team.

What I think they should do is continue building up the offense supporting cast around Pickett, and when you finally have that fixed, then you go find your next franchise QB. Have Pickett be the new Maddox as your building up the team around him and then replace Pickett with the new Ben when the team is ready to legitimately contend.

No. Pull the plug when you find someone better. We are absolutely in the quarterback market. I'm not giving him another year if we can help it.

 

[xlm34]

Steelers fans are way too harsh on Pickett at this point. People fully acknowledge the OL sucks, the running game sucks and the OC sucks, so how would any QB in Pickett's position have any sort of success? Not only that, but they're also dealing with Johnson and Freiermuth out as well.

I don't think Pickett is anything more than a lower level starter at this point with average starter upside, but there are extremely few QBs who would look good in this offensive system. Pickett is a system QB on a team with a completely f***ed up offensive system.

It's the same issue that Mac Jones is running into in New England right now. Jones made the pro-bowl in his rookie year and finished 2nd in ROY voting, yet he's 1-4 and just got blown out 34-0 right now. He's being absolutely ruined by a shitty team, the same way the Steelers are going to ruin Pickett

Honestly I think Mac Jones’ issue is that he straight up never was that good.

I still have some concerns about Pickett outside of the scheme/personnel issues but the physical traits are there to me, definitely more so than someone like Jones, and you can’t argue his ability to make big plays in big moments late in the game.

 

[Empoleon8771]

No. Pull the plug when you find someone better. We are absolutely in the quarterback market. I'm not giving him another year if we can help it.

Well that's dumb because the new QB would just have the same problems Pickett is having right now because of the major flaws on the team.

Frankly, what they should have done is started this process 2 years ago and just stuck with some short-term bandaid like Trubisky as their starter. They should have drafted OL help in both 2021 and 2022 instead of Harris and Pickett, imagine how much better the OL would be right now with Darrisaw (23rd overall in 2021) and Linderbaum (25th overall in 2022). You need to build up the OL well before you worry about getting a new QB, or at minimum get an OL good enough to give you a functional running game.

This team isn't a good QB away from being a contender. Replacing Pickett with a better QB is the same short-sighted decision making that the Steelers have been making for years, when they should have had the foresight to actually rebuild the offense post-Ben.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

Kenny Pickett has a 0 percent chance at becoming as efficient a passer as Kirk Cousins. 0.

Cousins is very underrated. He has been carrying an incompetent organization for years now.

 

[Pengwins]

Yep tomlin is the worst. We will either get completely blown out or get a lucky fluke win from turnovers.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Kenny Pickett has a 0 percent chance at becoming as efficient a passer as Kirk Cousins. 0.

Cousins is very underrated. He has been carrying an incompetent organization for years now.

Uh....okay? That has nothing to do with the context of the post.

The point of the comparison was to show that Pickett's upside was always perceived to be "average QB" territory, with him needing to play in a good offensive system for him to have success.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Well that's dumb because the new QB would just have the same problems Pickett is having right now because of the major flaws on the team.

Frankly, what they should have done is started this process 2 years ago and just stuck with some short-term bandaid like Trubisky as their starter. They should have drafted OL help in both 2021 and 2022 instead of Harris and Pickett, imagine how much better the OL would be right now with Darrisaw (23rd overall in 2021) and Linderbaum (25th overall in 2022). You need to build up the OL well before you worry about getting a new QB, or at minimum get an OL good enough to give you a functional running game.

This team isn't a good QB away from being a contender. Replacing Pickett with a better QB is the same short-sighted decision making that the Steelers have been making for years, when they should have had the foresight to actually rebuild the offense post-Ben.

They actually are an OC and QB away. You are way overplaying the team's issues.

Seems like a rationale to backdoor giving Kenny another year. Which, hell, fans could have argued the same thing with Rudolph 2 years ago.

 

[Empoleon8771]

They actually are an OC and QB away. You are way overplaying the team's issues.

Seems like a rationale to backdoor giving Kenny another year. Which, hell, fans could have argued the same thing with Rudolph 2 years ago.

You can't seriously believe this from watching the games. I have fundamentally no clue how you can seriously believe this.

The offense needs to be entirely rebuilt from the foundation. This is not a "get a new QB and new OC and everything is fine" situation.

 

[ChaosAgent]

You can't seriously believe this from watching the games. I have fundamentally no clue how you can seriously believe this.

Cool. You can keep riding little Kenny placeholder hoping for his glowup. Since he went to college in Oakland.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Cool. You can keep riding little Kenny placeholder hoping for his glowup. Since he went to college in Oakland.

I like how you have to resort to this because you don't have any better arguments.

I'm literally saying I don't think Pickett is good enough to win with. Actually read my arguments or don't respond to me.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I like how you have to resort to this because you don't have any better arguments.

I'm literally saying I don't think Pickett is good enough to win with. Actually read my arguments or don't respond to me.

Your argument that we can't get a good QB until we build a super bowl winning team around him is dumb, and just strikes me as a way to keep Kenny starting as long as you like. Totally arbitrary distinction and wouldn't ya know it, Kenny's the starter. That is your argument. But it is coming from a fanboi of Kenny's.

 

[Mischa]

 

[Empoleon8771]

I also want to point out that an exceptionally easy rebuttal to "they're just a new OC and new QB away from being good" claim is just pointing to 2020, when they got a terrific season out of Ben with a completely different OC yet still lost in the 1st round in the playoffs.

That team had a garbage OL and a garbage running game just like the Steelers have today, that team was entirely carried by its passing game. Guess what they accomplished? A 1st round loss to the Browns.

Your argument that we can't get a good QB until we build a super bowl winning team around him is dumb, and just strikes me as a way to keep Kenny starting as long as you like. Totally arbitrary distinction and wouldn't ya know it, Kenny's the starter. That is your argument. But it is coming from a fanboi of Kenny's.

If you're incapable of actually having a discussion without taking potshots at me, don't bother responding to me.

I have literally said in this thread "they shouldn't have drafted Pickett in the first place". My argument is entirely focused around them needing to build up the team before bringing in a franchise QB. That is exactly what they did with Ben and that is exactly how they won their 2 superbowls with Ben. If you can't actually respond to the discussion and have to resort to "you're just a fanboy", don't respond to me.

 

[Josey Wales]

 

[ChaosAgent]

I also want to point out that an exceptionally easy rebuttal to "they're just a new OC and new QB away from being good" claim is just pointing to 2020, when they got a terrific season out of Ben with a completely different OC yet still lost in the 1st round in the playoffs.

That team had a garbage OL and a garbage running game just like the Steelers have today, that team was entirely carried by its passing game. Guess what they accomplished? A 1st round loss to the Browns.



If you're incapable of actually having a discussion without taking potshots at me, don't bother responding to me.

I have literally said in this thread "they shouldn't have drafted Pickett in the first place". My argument is entirely focused around them needing to build up the team before bringing in a franchise QB. That is exactly what they did with Ben and that is exactly how they won their 2 superbowls with Ben. If you can't actually respond to the discussion and have to resort to "you're just a fanboy", don't respond to me.

The QB as cherry on top thing is a totally arbitrary method of team building. Why not try to get a QB that is great and build your team around him?

If you are trying to win, being below average (at best) at the most important position is going about it in a back asswards way. I'm sorry you feel these are personal attacks, but anointing Kenny heading into 2024 is like anointing Rudolph heading into 2022.

Take a time out from the "literally incapable" schtick and explain why the team has to come before the QB

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

His upside has always been that though. He was viewed to have upside like Cousins, Carr or Garoppolo when he was drafted and I don't think that has changed much.

Even if Pickett ends up meeting his upside, I ultimately don't think that will be good enough to win a super bowl with. So I definitely agree there. But with that being said, it's way too early to try to pull the plug on him because he just isn't getting the support he needs from the rest of his team.

What I think they should do is continue building up the offense supporting cast around Pickett, and when you finally have that fixed, then you go find your next franchise QB. Have Pickett be the new Maddox as your building up the team around him and then replace Pickett with the new Ben when the team is ready to legitimately contend.

People don’t get this or simply can’t wrap their head around it… there is no contending with Tomlin around.

So wether Pickett is good enough or whatever, it’s a small matter.

Tomlin thrives in chaos because Rooney allows it.

They aren’t going to ever bottom out and draft a QB in the top 5.

Many of us just fooled ourselves into thinking shit would change this off-season, because Tomlin Purgatory makes you delirious.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Here is how the OL has ranked this year according to PFF:

-Cole: 47.0 grade, 33/36 ranked C
-Seumalo: 62.5 grade, 30/76 G
-Daniels: 55.9 grade, 44/76 G
-Herbig: 49.4 grade, 57/76 G
-Jones: 58.4 grade, 46/72 T
-Okorafor: 49.9 grade, 63/72 T
-Moore Jr: 29.3 grade, 72/72 T

But yes, it's only a problem with Pickett and Canada! There is nothing else wrong here!

The QB as cherry on top thing is a totally arbitrary method of team building. Why not try to get a QB that is great and build your team around him?

If you are trying to win, being below average (at best) at the most important position is going about it in a back asswards way. I'm sorry you feel these are personal attacks, but anointing Kenny heading into 2024 is like anointing Rudolph heading into 2022.

Take a time out from the "literally incapable" schtick and explain why the team has to come before the QB

Go look at the actual teams who have won recently. Which ones of them picked their QB while everything else was a mess and had success?

The most successful team in recent years has been the Chiefs, who already had a great team and replaced Smith with Mahomes. The new greatest team looks like it's going to be SF, who already had a great team and replaced Garoppolo with Purdy. Both of the Steelers SB wins under Ben were the same exact strategy, he replaced Maddox and was surrounded by an insane supporting cast. Hell, even the Patriots going from Bledsoe to Brady fits this too. The Rams had a great team with Goff, then upgraded from Goff to Stafford and only won after that.

Why do you build the team up first before getting a QB? Because it has shown that you're far more likely to win by doing that than going the other way. Look at how Indy ruined Luck, who was a generational QB prospect, because they didn't support him. Look at how Detroit failed with Stafford and it took Stafford to going to an actually good team for him to win.

The Steelers are in the mess they're in right now because they refused to rebuild the offense after Ben and instead just tried to plug and play the new draft picks, while doing nothing to address the issues on the team. This team has had the same exact problems with the running game and OL since like 2018, and has had the same issues with the passing game since Ben retired. Drafting Harris and Pickett back-to-back years was just entirely shortsighted decision making with this team when they needed to make large fundamental changes to the offense. At this point, trying to get a new QB to replace Pickett would be the same exact thing: a deluded organization who fails to realize they need to make major changes to have success in the future.

The shortsighted decisions of trying to win-now are why the team is in its painfully mediocre state, with massive flaws on the team and only being bailed out by a few ultra talented pieces. These ideas of "we're just a new QB and new OC away from winning!" is just kicking the can down the road for actually addressing those massive flaws, and those massive flaws are what will prevent the team from winning again anytime soon.

I don't want to keep Pickett as the starter because I think Pickett is great and should be the starter. I want them to keep Pickett as the starter so they focus on fixing the fundamental issues on the offense, then they can kick Pickett to the curb for a new QB.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Gunna be BIG changes after this.

Big!

Gigantic!

Tomlin will find a new cliche saying to use?

 

[OnMyOwn]

I think the OL coach is a bum too. Seumalo is an example of that. He graded extremely well before this year. I think a major draft need is C as well.

Get a new offensive coaching staff all together and I feel like this roster is performing waaay better as is.

 

[robopigeon]

With the talent this team has, an average QB with an average o-line and average coaching might actually be enough to do some damage in the league. They have some above average offensive weapons in TE and WR already. It wouldn't be enough to contend, but the defense is skilled enough that if the offense could get 24 pts / g they'd win more often than not.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think the OL coach is a bum too. Seumalo is an example of that. He graded extremely well before this year. I think a major draft need is C as well.

Get a new offensive coaching staff all together and I feel like this roster is performing waaay better as is.

The coaches being terrible seems to be a common trend with all of their coaches

Speaking of awful coaches, it seems like a bunch of Steelers fans on Reddit and Twitter seem to think that Canada didn't call the play on the game-winning TD pass, based on his reaction and Pickett's comments after the game. If that doesn't sum up how awful Canada is, I don't know what will.

With the talent this team has, an average QB with an average o-line and average coaching might actually be enough to do some damage in the league. They have some above average offensive weapons in TE and WR already. It wouldn't be enough to contend, but the defense is skilled enough that if the offense could get 24 pts / g they'd win more often than not.

I think it all comes down to the OL more than anything. A good OL creates running lanes for a RB, which makes their running game more of a threat. Defenses have to respect the running threat, which opens up more passing opportunities for the QB on cleaner looks.