OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: They Killed Kenny!

[Empoleon8771]

I've already made this point, but the confusing part to me about the whole Pickett dialogue is that it seems like all 3 of these are true to some people:

1. Pickett wasn't that good when he was drafted, where his upside was never higher than a systems QB
2. The team is an absolute mess offensively due to Canada, the OL, running game and whatever else you want to criticize about the OL
3. Pickett sucks because he can't make this offense work and can't put up good numbers in this offense.

I personally agree with 1 and 2, I think Pickett was more of a 2nd round caliber talent that only has the upside of a game manager starting QB. But I fundamentally don't know how you can come to conclusion 3 while agreeing with 1 and 2. He can't carry a dysfunctional offense, but he was never projected to be good enough to do that in the first place. Let alone in his 2nd year in the NFL. He's a system QB that's not good enough to carry an offense, what were you expecting out of him in the role he was put in?

If you want to say "Pickett sucks as a QB who needs to carry his offense", I can agree with that. But I also had no expectations that he'd ever become that good in the first place, and frankly most QBs in the NFL would suck according to those guidelines. I just don't understand how people can so confidently say he sucks when he's being asked to do something that I think most even pro-Pickett people don't think he's capable of doing.

I think you can easily make conclusions like "he's not good enough to be the main weapon of an offense" or "he's not good enough to win a superbowl with" based on what we've seen. But people go far beyond that and act like he's not even a starting caliber QB or shouldn't be playing in the NFL, which is unreasonable considering the situation he has been put in. He has been put in a position to fail by this organization.

 

[MrBrightside]

I've already made this point, but the confusing part to me about the whole Pickett dialogue is that it seems like all 3 of these are true to some people:

1. Pickett wasn't that good when he was drafted, where his upside was never higher than a systems QB
2. The team is an absolute mess offensively due to Canada, the OL, running game and whatever else you want to criticize about the OL
3. Pickett sucks because he can't make this offense work and can't put up good numbers in this offense.

I personally agree with 1 and 2, I think Pickett was more of a 2nd round caliber talent that only has the upside of a game manager starting QB. But I fundamentally don't know how you can come to conclusion 3 while agreeing with 1 and 2. He can't carry a dysfunctional offense, but he was never projected to be good enough to do that in the first place. Let alone in his 2nd year in the NFL. He's a system QB that's not good enough to carry an offense, what were you expecting out of him in the role he was put in?

If you want to say "Pickett sucks as a QB who needs to carry his offense", I can agree with that. But I also had no expectations that he'd ever become that good in the first place, and frankly most QBs in the NFL would suck according to those guidelines. I just don't understand how people can so confidently say he sucks when he's being asked to do something that I think most even pro-Pickett people don't think he's capable of doing.

1 and 3 are basically the same thing.

 

[Captain Hook]

I don't see it with Pickett either but I think he'll get another year as the starter. They'll blame year one on him being a rookie and year two will be blamed on Matt Canada. He'll get a chance to succeed or fail under a new OC before they cut bait. Some of this is we're not in a good spot to get a replacement. All this winning likely takes us out of a high enough pick to get a difference maker QB prospect.

There is the veteran QB market but I doubt the Steelers want Kyler Murray's contract. Maybe they'd look at Justin Fields if one or both of Chicago's two 1st round picks are high enough for them to take Williams or Maye and they move on from Fields. Tomlin seemed to like Fields in the draft and he has more physical talent than Picket if nothing else.

I tend to believe they'll still give Pickett another year but damn are his stats pedestrian. We're more than half way through the season now (9 games) and he only has 6 TD passes all year.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don't see it with Pickett either but I think he'll get another year as the starter. They'll blame year one on him being a rookie and year two will be blamed on Matt Canada. He'll get a chance to succeed or fail under a new OC before they cut bait. Some of this is we're not in a good spot to get a replacement. All this winning likely takes us out of a high enough pick to get a difference maker QB prospect.

There is the veteran QB market but I doubt the Steelers want Kyler Murray's contract. Maybe they'd look at Justin Fields if one or both of Chicago's two 1st round picks are high enough for them to take Williams or Maye and they move on from Fields. Tomlin seemed to like Fields in the draft and he has more physical talent than Picket if nothing else.

I tend to believe they'll still give Pickett another year but damn are his stats pedestrian. We're more than half way through the season now (9 games) and he only has 6 TD passes all year.

Fields isn't better than Pickett. Not even remotely better.

Fields and Murray are fantasy QBs, not QBs you win with. Murray is better than Pickett, but you're not winning a thing with Murray as your QB either.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I don't see it with Pickett either but I think he'll get another year as the starter. They'll blame year one on him being a rookie and year two will be blamed on Matt Canada. He'll get a chance to succeed or fail under a new OC before they cut bait. Some of this is we're not in a good spot to get a replacement. All this winning likely takes us out of a high enough pick to get a difference maker QB prospect.

There is the veteran QB market but I doubt the Steelers want Kyler Murray's contract. Maybe they'd look at Justin Fields if one or both of Chicago's two 1st round picks are high enough for them to take Williams or Maye and they move on from Fields. Tomlin seemed to like Fields in the draft and he has more physical talent than Picket if nothing else.

I tend to believe they'll still give Pickett another year but damn are his stats pedestrian. We're more than half way through the season now (9 games) and he only has 6 TD passes all year.

I think it's correct to just build the rest of the team. Namely the OL and DBs. And see if a new, qualified OC ignites the offense.

I'm intrigued by Murray and have no idea what the cap gymnastics are - how much would Arizona eat in a move? But probably not intrigued enough to pull the trigger. Stay a million miles away from Justin Fields.

 

[Peat]

For me the whole study clause thing means I'd want to conduct the mother of all background checks on Murray. That's a big old red flag for what I want from a QB.

 

[JTG]

It sounds crazy, but by time they are done with Pickett he's going to be on the wrong side of 30. He may just stick around here as a 2nd fiddle. They are going to give this guy a really good, long, clean shot at failing. Anyone believing this franchise, after a season and a half, will move on from him, you are nuts. He's going to get a good 60 games before they even begin determining his future as the team's starter.

Khan is going to show us what kind of dog is in him in the coming years because the correct moves would be not to give a 5th year to either Najee or Kenny. These are two guys we are supposed to be building around. That will shed some clear light on where they see this franchise going. 2026 also sees Arch Manning coming out.

 

[ChaosAgent]

It sounds crazy, but by time they are done with Pickett he's going to be on the wrong side of 30. He may just stick around here as a 2nd fiddle. They are going to give this guy a really good, long, clean shot at failing. Anyone believing this franchise, after a season and a half, will move on from him, you are nuts. He's going to get a good 60 games before they even begin determining his future as the team's starter.

Khan is going to show us what kind of dog is in him in the coming years because the correct moves would be not to give a 5th year to either Najee or Kenny. These are two guys we are supposed to be building around. That will shed some clear light on where they see this franchise going. 2026 also sees Arch Manning coming out.

I think they decline the options on both Najee and Pickett but work out a different deal.

If Pickett progresses to a league-average QB or better, they will pay him. Probably 30-40% lower than the top end QB contracts but still big money (think Jimmy G, Carr). If he stays at his current level or marginally progresses, they'll go year-to-year with him. Unless some other team is offering him the chance to start, we can probably bring him back for $7-12M annually. He'd have a chance at a starting job and then if we get "the guy" he would get relegated to the backup role. This isn't dissimilar to what Jameis Winston has been doing in New Orleans.

 

[JTG]

I think I have found my new favorite college football player. 6'3, 339 pound NT. Kenneth Grant for Michigan.

I think they decline the options on both Najee and Pickett but work out a different deal.

If Pickett progresses to a league-average QB or better, they will pay him. Probably 30-40% lower than the top end QB contracts but still big money (think Jimmy G, Carr). If he stays at his current level or marginally progresses, they'll go year-to-year with him. Unless some other team is offering him the chance to start, we can probably bring him back for $7-12M annually. He'd have a chance at a starting job and then if we get "the guy" he would get relegated to the backup role. This isn't dissimilar to what Jameis Winston has been doing in New Orleans.

Like I said before, I think this team rolls with Kenny until it's clearly visible to both the staff and the player that he is not a starter. For Kenny, he'll be about 30 when this is happening, and he will just settle into a Charlie Batch mentor role.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

Earlier in the year it was "Kenny needs the running game to work to be successful as a passer".

Now, we've progressed all the way to "what is everybody complaining about? You can't expect Kenny to throw for more than 126 yards just because the running game was averaging 5.6 yards a pop".

 

[Jaded-Fan]

If someone tests me by asking me to add 2 + 2 over and over and I always come up with 4 as the answer does that make me Matt Damon's character in the movie Good Will Hunting?

Kenny Pickett Holds NFL's Longest Active Streak Without An Interception

Don’t look now, but the Pittsburgh Steelers are 6-3 after defeating the Green Bay Packers, 23-19, on Sunday. The Steelers built on the success they had on the ground against the Tennessee Titans in the previous game and dominated Green Bay with 36 carries for 205 yards and two touchdowns...

steelersdepot.com

 

[Empoleon8771]

Earlier in the year it was "Kenny needs the running game to work to be successful as a passer".

Now, we've progressed all the way to "what is everybody complaining about? You can't expect Kenny to throw for more than 126 yards just because the running game was averaging 5.6 yards a pop".

Or maybe, here’s another thought, playcalling is still an issue even with the run game working, meaning they need more than just the run game working?

Again, for the millionth time, Pickett is a system QB. A system QB needs, you know, a good offensive system to have success. Canada and Tomlin only calling 5 yard check downs is not a “good offensive system”.

It’s the same discussion every single time here and I have no clue how the Pickett haters can’t understand it. Trying to judge Pickett on anything beyond “he can’t carry an offense” is stupid as long as Canada is the OC. Until they put him in a position to succeed at QB, it’s nonsensical to be stat watching and say “he sucks because his stats aren’t good enough”. Unless you’re an elite QB, which Pickett isn’t and was never projected to be, you’re not having success in a Matt Canada offense.

 

[Empoleon8771]

People just don’t remember how much Canada sandbagged Ben’s last season. Every one of Ben’s passing stats fell notably from his last season with Fichner to the first season with Canada and he got sacked insanely more.

His TDs went from 33 in 15 games to 22 in 16 games. His yards/game fell about 10%. His QBR fell from 52.5 to 35.6. He went from being sacked 13 times in 15 games to 38 times in 16 games. The offense went from 26 points/game to 20 points/game.

Canada sandbagged a first ballot HOFer in his final year to have a massive drop in basically every passing stat, yet somehow Pickett sucks because he can’t make it work under the same OC?

Getting a consistent run game is definitely needed for Pickett to have success in the NFL. That’s about 1 of 4 things needed for him to have success in the NFL, and the clear biggest one (the OC) hasn’t changed. Go look at what Purdy has in SF, that is what you need for Pickett to be good in the NFL. He and Purdy are equally talented IMO, it’s just one is put in an amazing position and the other is put in a horrendous situation.

Edit: Hell, the same thing happened with Trubisky when comparing his last season in Chicago to his time starting with the Steelers. His interception rate stayed about the same (2.7% in Chicago, 2.8% in Pittsburgh), but his TD rate (5.4% to 2.2%) and yards/game (206 to 179) fell dramatically. And it’s not like he was in a good offensive situation with Chicago, either.

 

[Headshot77]

I seriously cannot recall another professional athlete in Pittsburgh who has been as bad/mediocre as Pickett has been for 1.5 seasons and for which more excuses were made. Literally not one. If he'd played college ball at Oregon State or Purdue or something he'd be viewed by this fan base the same way Pats fans view Mac Jones or Jets fans view Zach Wilson or Falcons fans view Desmond Ridder. It's truly a bizarre phenomenon.

Mac Jones is an absolute travesty tbh. Dude is barely backup caliber.

I think it's reasonable to be at least content with Pickett while knowing he isn't "the guy". Like Emp says this guy's seems like a placeholder QB until the team builds out the rest of the roster.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Brock processes things so much faster he reads defenses much better than KP. He actually gets to his 2nd read and rarely stares down his wr. The system has given him layup tds and he is missing them. The system has had multiple wide open wr just running for cardio exercises literally against Green Bay GP ran the same double move 5 times and won not one time did KP throw it.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Chalk Talk: Don't throw in the towel yet, but concern for Kenny Pickett is valid

FORNEY, Texas -- It's nowhere near time to give up on the guy. But, Kenny Pickett is now nine games into his second season, and there's still reason to be concerned about his progress.

www.dkpittsburghsports.com

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Steelers just need to move on from KP and draft the next generational guy.

It’s all so simple, really.

He should be easy to find being in Tomlin Purgatory and all.

Must be nice to be this delusional and detached from reality.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Steelers just need to move on from KP and draft the next generational guy.

It’s all so simple, really.

He should be easy to find being in Tomlin Purgatory and all.

Must be nice to be this delusional and detached from reality.

Don’t need generational I take a neil odonold type over KP

 

[MrBrightside]

Chalk Talk: Don't throw in the towel yet, but concern for Kenny Pickett is valid

FORNEY, Texas -- It's nowhere near time to give up on the guy. But, Kenny Pickett is now nine games into his second season, and there's still reason to be concerned about his progress.

www.dkpittsburghsports.com

This article breaks down Pickett’s issues quite well but because Matt Canada is a bad OC and because H2P most will continue to give KP a free pass. It’s just how it will be.

 

[MrBrightside]

Mac Jones is an absolute travesty tbh. Dude is barely backup caliber.

I think it's reasonable to be at least content with Pickett while knowing he isn't "the guy". Like Emp says this guy's seems like a placeholder QB until the team builds out the rest of the roster.

Actually Mac Jones is better than Pickett in pretty much every metric there is other than INT’s. And Mac sucks.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

This article breaks down Pickett’s issues quite well but because Matt Canada is a bad OC and because H2P most will continue to give KP a free pass. It’s just how it will be.

The next step is the blind resume between Jones zack Willson and Ridder

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Don’t need generational I take a neil odonold type over KP

The same NOD that was run out of Pgh and the mere mention of his name puts Yinzers into a rage?

Sure.

A NOD game manager isn’t winning anything in this era, especially under Tomlin who is scared of his own shadow.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Don’t need generational I take a neil odonold type over KP

I think we should make a run at Minshew and give Kenny some real competition this off-season.

 

[Josey Wales]

This article breaks down Pickett’s issues quite well but because Matt Canada is a bad OC and because H2P most will continue to give KP a free pass. It’s just how it will be.

Did Not go to PITT or PSU or WVU for that matter

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I seriously cannot recall another professional athlete in Pittsburgh who has been as bad/mediocre as Pickett has been for 1.5 seasons and for which more excuses were made. Literally not one. If he'd played college ball at Oregon State or Purdue or something he'd be viewed by this fan base the same way Pats fans view Mac Jones or Jets fans view Zach Wilson or Falcons fans view Desmond Ridder. It's truly a bizarre phenomenon.

Yet here's what I see as a person who doesn't live in Pittsburgh, doesn't consume local media and doesn't have a tie to or an opinion on the University of Pittsburgh's football program...

I've never seen a fanbase with such a bias against a player simply because there is an assumed bias towards a player. This goes alongside the hassles players get for being related to another player, current or former, or having a connection to the organization in some way.

I don't consider myself a KP fanboy. But I remain a guy who still thinks (hopes, maybe?) Pickett can be decent.