OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: They Killed Kenny!

[bigdaddyk88]

Kozora: Two Key Problems With Kenny Pickett

Over the last few days, and really over the course of the Pittsburgh Steelers’ first month, I’ve wondered how to articulate why QB Kenny Pickett has regressed. Sure, it’s easy to point the finger directly and solely at OC Matt Canada for questionable play calling and scheme. But to put it all at...

steelersdepot.com

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Steelers QB coach on Kenny Pickett: ‘Maybe he gets a little greedy at times’

Kenny Pickett wants it all.

sports.yahoo.com

 

[Peat]

Exactly.

Obviously, accuracy is a lot on the quarterback. Harris missing the hole and seemingly not having the instincts that frankly he had in college is on the player.

However, it is also fair to say that development and a crappy system is also open to question as playing a large role.

It has been half a decade now of offensive ineptitude. It is beyond obvious that the players are not entirely to blame for this.

Perhaps I am misreading your words but if we're saying Harris looks like he has worse instincts than he did in college, I think we're beyond talking inadequate development, we're talking inadequate preparation as well. That guys aren't just not being trained to improve their skills properly, but that they don't know what they're supposed to be doing on the field well enough either.

At which point, I question the idea of just how much that's on the player.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Perhaps I am misreading your words but if we're saying Harris looks like he has worse instincts than he did in college, I think we're beyond talking inadequate development, we're talking inadequate preparation as well. That guys aren't just not being trained to improve their skills properly, but that they don't know what they're supposed to be doing on the field well enough either.

At which point, I question the idea of just how much that's on the player.

You didn't misread me. Harris looked far more instinctual in college.

Maybe the failure offensively for so long has impacted his confidence.

 

[ChaosAgent]

You didn't misread me. Harris looked far more instinctual in college.

Maybe the failure offensively for so long has impacted his confidence.

Maybe it's easy to be instinctual when you're running behind Alabama's OL against Vanderbilt.

Or it's easier to QB when Jordan Addison is 2x better than any DB in the ACC.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Maybe it's easy to be instinctual when you're running behind Alabama's OL against Vanderbilt.

Or it's easier to QB when Jordan Addison is 2x better than any DB in the ACC.

Sure.

But that doesn't contradict what I said. Players instinctive when comfortable and not when continually put in a position to fail.

 

[Peat]

Maybe it's easy to be instinctual when you're running behind Alabama's OL against Vanderbilt.

Or it's easier to QB when Jordan Addison is 2x better than any DB in the ACC.

Which applies to every player coming into the NFL.

Why is it our guys struggle with this more than just about anyone else's?

There were high levels of external confidence in both Pickett and Harris being good when drafted. Not great necessarily, but good. Why are we assuming that is wrong and they were never good enough, or that they haven't worked hard enough on who they are, rather than them being victims of inept coaches?

Tbh... why the need to turn the conversation back to the players when discussing how the Steelers offensive scheme and coaching is a bit of a problem? I'm fairly sure you don't believe there's nothing wrong with it...

 

[ChaosAgent]

Sure.

But that doesn't contradict what I said. Players instinctive when comfortable and not when continually put in a position to fail.

Warren and Diontae are managing to do pretty well in these circumstances. So has Pickens until the last game.

I refuse to engage in the "you can't evaluate anyone or anything" game. It's boring.

 

[Peat]

Warren and Diontae are managing to do pretty well in these circumstances. So has Pickens until the last game.

I refuse to engage in the "you can't evaluate anyone or anything" game. It's boring.

I'm not sure that gaining the record for most receptions without a touchdown is doing pretty well.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Which applies to every player coming into the NFL.

Why is it our guys struggle with this more than just about anyone else's?

There were high levels of external confidence in both Pickett and Harris being good when drafted. Not great necessarily, but good. Why are we assuming that is wrong and they were never good enough, or that they haven't worked hard enough on who they are, rather than them being victims of inept coaches?

Tbh... why the need to turn the conversation back to the players when discussing how the Steelers offensive scheme and coaching is a bit of a problem? I'm fairly sure you don't believe there's nothing wrong with it...

There was absolutely not a consensus that Kenny Pickett was going to be good. If he was a consensus to be good, he would have went much sooner...not considered a reach at 20.

Najee needs a good offensive line to be successful. Ironically, a big part of why he doesn't have a good offensive line is his own draft position. Oh well. But is underscores how idiotic of a pick he was in the first place.

Of course Matt Canada sucks. I will grade on a curve. Najee has still been exposed by the success of a UDFA.

 

[Peat]

There was absolutely not a consensus that Kenny Pickett was going to be good. If he was a consensus to be good, he would have went much sooner...not considered a reach at 20.

Najee needs a good offensive line to be successful. Ironically, a big part of why he doesn't have a good offensive line is his own draft position. Oh well. But is underscores how idiotic of a pick he was in the first place.

Of course Matt Canada sucks. I will grade on a curve. Najee has still been exposed by the success of a UDFA.

Given how it was considered a shock that Pickett was still available, I'm not sure why he's considered a reach.

And yes, there was a consensus that Pickett would be a decent Dalton type QB and was very close to being so, and the knock on him was the lack of ceiling for being great. The lack of ceiling is why he didn't go early.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Given how it was considered a shock that Pickett was still available, I'm not sure why he's considered a reach.

And yes, there was a consensus that Pickett would be a decent Dalton type QB and was very close to being so, and the knock on him was the lack of ceiling for being great. The lack of ceiling is why he didn't go early.

There was not shock that Pickett was still available.

Dalton was never a floor. Considering how many QBs outright bust saying Andy Dalton is someone's floor is extremely optimistic

 

[Jaded-Fan]

KP and Harris were both considered to be the most NFL ready and least projects of any of their class at their position. The questions were upside and, weirdly, hand size for KP and why anyone would draft a running back in the first round with Harris.

That both now seemingly forgot how to play is an odd coincidence.

 

[Peat]

There was not shock that Pickett was still available.

Dalton was never a floor. Considering how many QBs outright bust saying Andy Dalton is someone's floor is extremely optimistic

I said "very close to doing so", my comments clearly don't mean "floor", they mean "likeliest projection". Which is true. The comments made time and time again by scouts and informed fans is that he was pro ready, that he was close to his ceiling, and his ceiling was someone like Andy Dalton or Derek Carr. Were there people disagreeing? Yes, but people disagree with everything. Consensus does not need to be unanimous.

As for availability...

“Honestly, I never thought it would make it to us at 20,” general manager Kevin Colbert said.

"The Front Office will keep the door open for Pickett but he isn't getting to 20 regardless." - ChaosAgent

So... both you and the GM, along with lots of other people, thought he'd never get to 20. But it wasn't a shock. At best that's very semantic; I think it's probably more accurate to say you're engaging, albeit probably unintentionally, in historical revisionism.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I said "very close to doing so", my comments clearly don't mean "floor", they mean "likeliest projection". Which is true. The comments made time and time again by scouts and informed fans is that he was pro ready, that he was close to his ceiling, and his ceiling was someone like Andy Dalton or Derek Carr. Were there people disagreeing? Yes, but people disagree with everything. Consensus does not need to be unanimous.

As for availability...

“Honestly, I never thought it would make it to us at 20,” general manager Kevin Colbert said.

"The Front Office will keep the door open for Pickett but he isn't getting to 20 regardless." - ChaosAgent

So... both you and the GM, along with lots of other people, thought he'd never get to 20. But it wasn't a shock. At best that's very semantic; I think it's probably more accurate to say you're engaging, albeit probably unintentionally, in historical revisionism.

Fair enough. I don't remember when I made the comments and good search/find.

I watched Pickett at Pitt for 6 years. I am a Pitt fan first and foremost, CFB wise. He had more potential than he showed in his first 5 years which is why he came back for year 6 in the first place. And yeah, I was pumped that he kicked ass during that 6th year. There were questions - he still bailed on pockets, was older than all of his competition and was throwing to a superior player in Addison. But of course I wanted the Steelers to take him.

Doesn't mean that he was guaranteed to work out. He is headed to the land of being "not great, but does enough and we'll live with him I guess." Which, honestly, is the land many QBs who are drafted high and are not outright terrible find themselves in. Bridgewater land. Including Trubisky with Chicago not that long ago. He is facing Jordan Love who is in basically the same situation and drafted in the same spot.

As long as Pickett stays cheap, I can live with him. I think he can be re-signed cheap as well. But when he faces Levis who makes plays and throws he isn't capable of, I'll be jealous of the other team.

 

[Peat]

Fair enough. I don't remember when I made the comments and good search/find.

I watched Pickett at Pitt for 6 years. I am a Pitt fan first and foremost, CFB wise. He had more potential than he showed in his first 5 years which is why he came back for year 6 in the first place. And yeah, I was pumped that he kicked ass during that 6th year. There were questions - he still bailed on pockets, was older than all of his competition and was throwing to a superior player in Addison. But of course I wanted the Steelers to take him.

Doesn't mean that he was guaranteed to work out. He is headed to the land of being "not great, but does enough and we'll live with him I guess." Which, honestly, is the land many QBs who are drafted high and are not outright terrible find themselves in. Bridgewater land. Including Trubisky with Chicago not that long ago. He is facing Jordan Love who is in basically the same situation and drafted in the same spot.

As long as Pickett stays cheap, I can live with him. I think he can be re-signed cheap as well. But when he faces Levis who makes plays and throws he isn't capable of, I'll be jealous of the other team.

I won't belabour the point as I think we're largely on the same page, but it sucks that he's headed to Trubisky-land rather than Carr-land - at least by numbers - and when it comes to the why, I can't help but see a huge amount of things around him that suck. I think he's not just underdeveloped, I think he and the team around him are underprepared, and I think that is a substantial barrier to execution. I think people underestimate that.

And while a lot of QBs fail to hit their ceilings, I feel like a lot of QBs also end up in bad situations. Trubisky and Chicago is a good example. Maybe I'd be saying different if I knew better, but guys like Lance who land in a good situation and fail to take hold are rare (and there's injuries to account for there too)

 

[Pens1566]

IIRC, the Dalton comparisons were that he "might" be as good as Dalton. Or, it was his ceiling.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I won't belabour the point as I think we're largely on the same page, but it sucks that he's headed to Trubisky-land rather than Carr-land - at least by numbers - and when it comes to the why, I can't help but see a huge amount of things around him that suck. I think he's not just underdeveloped, I think he and the team around him are underprepared, and I think that is a substantial barrier to execution. I think people underestimate that.

And while a lot of QBs fail to hit their ceilings, I feel like a lot of QBs also end up in bad situations. Trubisky and Chicago is a good example. Maybe I'd be saying different if I knew better, but guys like Lance who land in a good situation and fail to take hold are rare (and there's injuries to account for there too)

I think it's still possible that he's pretty good. With Carr + clutchness being a right tail outcome.
It's just my confidence is diminishing.

Like almost everyone else here, I am baffled and dismayed that Tomlin/Rooney hired Matt Canada in the first place. To see that resume and say "that's an NFL Offensive Coordinator" invites questions of nepotism, flawed thinking, or even sabotaging the OC position in the first place. It doesn't help that Kevin Colbert never bothered building a succession plan for Pouncey, DeCastro and Villaneuva.

Still, I am holding out hope that they get a genuinely qualified (or at least an on-the-rise) OC and keep investing in the OL. The spotlight is going to shine very brightly on the OC position. Fans will know if Tomlin/Rooney hired another bozo figurehead.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Still, I am holding out hope that they get a genuinely qualified (or at least an on-the-rise) OC and keep investing in the OL. The spotlight is going to shine very brightly on the OC position. Fans will know if Tomlin/Rooney hired another bozo figurehead.

Hope based on what exactly?

It is beyond apparent by now that Tomlin is smarter than everyone else including everyone in the NFL and that he believes this defense first protect the ball offense and win close low scoring games is the way to go.

The next hire will be the same as the last two.

The players just need to execute and everyone can behold Tomlin's brilliance.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Hope based on what exactly?

It is beyond apparent by now that Tomlin is smarter than everyone else including everyone in the NFL and that he believes this defense first protect the ball offense and win close low scoring games is the way to go.

The next hire will be the same as the last two.

The players just need to execute and everyone can behold Tomlin's brilliance.

Hope based on the Steelers not firing assistants mid-contract.

It is possible they make a substantive upgrade at OC after the season.

If the whole offense is doomed forever anyway, not sure what point you have in ardently defending Najee and Pickett. To what end?

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Hope based on the Steelers not firing assistants mid-contract.

It is possible they make a substantive upgrade at OC after the season.

If the whole offense is doomed forever anyway, not sure what point you have in ardently defending Najee and Pickett. To what end?

I am not sure if my defense, if there was much of one at all, was ardent.

I mostly was saying that everything was such a mess that drawing definitive conclusions was impossible.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

And more Canada bashing from players who had a cup of coffee under his system.

 

[Rossi Rat]

If you’re not rooting for Penn State today, you’re just a bitter Pitt fan jealous that your team sucks. Michigan:

-Cheaters
-Harbaugh shady AF
-Haven’t faced any legitimate competition until today
-On the road at the toughest place for a road team to play

They are absolutely going down today. Their offense is going to be dumbfounded and Drew will have his breakout game. And then we’ll have to pivot and root for them to beat Ohio St in a few weeks (very doable)…

 

[JTG]

Former Steelers TE Jace Sternberger Says Pittsburgh's Playbook Was Stunningly Simple Compared To Packers'

Former Pittsburgh Steelers TE Jace Sternberger is bringing some insight into the incredible simplicity of a Matt Canada offense. Not just about the concepts but in the way the playbook was drawn up and the way players were coached. Having spent time in Pittsburgh and Green Bay, he says the...

steelersdepot.com

"The details were night and day. I can't even say night and day. It was night and ten years in the past... the details on the assignment were nothing. It was literally like, 'five yards. You're running the stick.'... Going to Pittsburgh was harder to learn. Because I'm like, 'why are we doing this? What's the reasoning behind it?'"

This is why it is unfair to really judge anyone. They are 5-3 and they are woefully under prepared. It's also hilarious that we needed 3 years to implement t his offense. Canada is the biggest fraud of all time.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

And more Canada bashing from players who had a cup of coffee under his system.

Dulac: Okorafor's Outburst Against Jags Centered Around Frustration With Same Run Plays Being Called

There’s been an overall frustration with the Pittsburgh Steelers’ offense through the first eight games of the season, from the media and fans. And now, it seems like some players have expressed their frustrations. According to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette’s Gerry Dulac, veteran right tackle...

steelersdepot.com

For the second game in a row, Okorafor will be replaced in the starting lineup by rookie Broderick Jones, his punishment for openly complaining about the running plays following the Steelers' 20-10 loss to the Jacksonville Jaguars on Oct. 29.

Okorafor was upset the offense was using the same plays despite trailing the entire game, including 17-3 in the third quarter.

You can’t make this shit up.