OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: They Blamed Canada

[pistolpete11]

Every indication is that the current Steeler's philosophy has zero goal of a 'good' offense. The goal is an offense that does not hurt the defenses ability to eek out a win for the team.

Tomlin, and virtually everyone involved, has said as much.

And does anyone see this changing? Until it changes, who cares who the figurehead we call a quarterback is? Hell, I could hand the ball off over and over and fail over and over as much as anyone can. And I would do it for a lot less.

That's why I said:

they need to hire a great OC and give them complete control.

and

No meddling from Tomlin at all.

 

[Peat]

I think Flacco or someone like that would be performing above what we've seen Mitch and KP w/ the Steelers. Would he be accomplishing AS MUCH? Probably not.

So if KP/Mitch performed at a 4 out of 10. ANd Flacco with his new team put up a 7, I think you could say he'd be in the midpoint (5.5) within the confines of this Steelers offense.

Look at some of my earlier posts with the Youtube vids. There are receivers open, KP can't decipher who is coming open. Mitch can do that, but he throws off his back fooot and rushes the pass.

So if you could somehow combine those 2, you'd probably have a decent QB.

I think people make far, far too much of someone being open because in order of increasing emphasis

a) We don't know how the QB was taught to make the reads there, whether they were being told to look for them or treat them as decoys, whether they're open because they improvised and that wasn't covered, and so on. We can guess, but we don't know.

b) I'll just quote @Jaded-Fan direct as this is how I feel

"when 95% of your throws are within five yards of the line of scrimmage and you are not allowed to throw to the middle of the field, not only do you not get the reps on mid-range and long throws needed to develop and to maintain sharpness"

The Steelers guys are not being put into a rhythm of recognising and making these throws as there's so many garbage throws being called. You want guys to perform, you get them into a rhythm. When there is no rhythm, I don't blame the guys, I blame the guys calling the rhythm.

c) Further to that, I think people are overegging how often there are open guys getting missed. This chart comes from last week:



If Pickett is facing the fourth highest amount of perfect coverages in the NFL, just how often are guys really open?

Again, that can't be helping the rhythm.

It's also mildly impressive he's above the average line for effectiveness in those situations, all things considered.

And it's also a testament to the inadequacy of the offensive minds, which is ongoing.

Lets change the comparison. Big Ben vs Straight Off The Street Flacco seems fair, right? Rothliesberger looked like crap except in those end of game drives where he was clearly running his own plays. Ben had his flaws at the end but there's no doubting the quality of his mind... and he looked like crap. Does Flacco really have less flaws?

If it was just Pickett and Trubisky this year, I might agree. But it's been three years. No QB has flourished. Huge gaping flaws in their support has been obvious. Weird QB development decisions have been rampant. The mastermind in charge of this system managed to break records with his incompetence, and the man directing the mastermind is still there.

Flacco at a 5.5 here? I just don't see it. I just don't see anything other than an incredibly wretched offensive system that would drag down anything short of a guy like Burrow... and the reason I'd exclude guys like Burrow is basically he'd be able to take control and change it himself.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

That's why I said:



and

Well, good luck with that.

 

[MrBrightside]

Citing to a chart that has Pickett in the same group as Dobbs, Ridder, Howell, Mayfield, and Bagent as evidence to support the idea that Pickett's issues aren't his fault is not the most persuasive argument that's ever been made.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Citing to a chart that has Pickett in the same group as Dobbs, Ridder, Howell, Mayfield, and Bagent as evidence to support the idea that Pickett's issues aren't his fault is not the most persuasive argument that's ever been made.

I am at a loss on how that was responsive to the chart that he posted.

The point was not to rank quarterbacks in any way other than to show which quarterbacks had the challenge of perfect coverages most often, a play calling thing. And how they performed when facing those perfect coverages.

 

[MrBrightside]

I am at a loss on how that was responsive to the chart that he posted.

The point was not to rank quarterbacks in any way other than to show which quarterbacks had the challenge of perfect coverages most often, a play calling thing. And how they performed when facing those perfect coverages.

The point is that this chart, like many that you'll see floating around Twitter/X, doesn't really tell you anything of any significance. With the outlier exception of Purdy, most QB's are between 30-40% "perfect coverage," however that is defined. meaning that the variance in the situations are relatively minimal. I'd also like to know if "perfect coverage" is defined by the player to whom the pass was thrown or if it was "perfect coverage" across the board, as if it is the former, it's not surprising that a lot of bad QB's are high on the chart because they tend to lock on one receiver and force throws rather than going through progressions and finding open alternative receivers.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I think people make far, far too much of someone being open because in order of increasing emphasis

a) We don't know how the QB was taught to make the reads there, whether they were being told to look for them or treat them as decoys, whether they're open because they improvised and that wasn't covered, and so on. We can guess, but we don't know.

b) I'll just quote @Jaded-Fan direct as this is how I feel

"when 95% of your throws are within five yards of the line of scrimmage and you are not allowed to throw to the middle of the field, not only do you not get the reps on mid-range and long throws needed to develop and to maintain sharpness"

The Steelers guys are not being put into a rhythm of recognising and making these throws as there's so many garbage throws being called. You want guys to perform, you get them into a rhythm. When there is no rhythm, I don't blame the guys, I blame the guys calling the rhythm.

c) Further to that, I think people are overegging how often there are open guys getting missed. This chart comes from last week:



If Pickett is facing the fourth highest amount of perfect coverages in the NFL, just how often are guys really open?

Again, that can't be helping the rhythm.

It's also mildly impressive he's above the average line for effectiveness in those situations, all things considered.

And it's also a testament to the inadequacy of the offensive minds, which is ongoing.

Lets change the comparison. Big Ben vs Straight Off The Street Flacco seems fair, right? Rothliesberger looked like crap except in those end of game drives where he was clearly running his own plays. Ben had his flaws at the end but there's no doubting the quality of his mind... and he looked like crap. Does Flacco really have less flaws?

If it was just Pickett and Trubisky this year, I might agree. But it's been three years. No QB has flourished. Huge gaping flaws in their support has been obvious. Weird QB development decisions have been rampant. The mastermind in charge of this system managed to break records with his incompetence, and the man directing the mastermind is still there.

Flacco at a 5.5 here? I just don't see it. I just don't see anything other than an incredibly wretched offensive system that would drag down anything short of a guy like Burrow... and the reason I'd exclude guys like Burrow is basically he'd be able to take control and change it himself.

Have you watched any of these vids? Have you seen my posts last week about how KP refuses to come off his primary read?

It's obvious that there are plays to be made.

 

[DanielPlainview]

You think those guys would be doing that here though?

Or do you think they'd be failing like Trubisky?

To me, this is all cart before the horse. Other orgs can just pick up guys from where ever and plug them in and it's fine. This org can take a 50 plus game guy who's been to the Pro Bowl and been with the org for a season and a half and make him look like absolute crap. If playing QB in this day and age is the easiest it's even been, the Steelers are a true buck the trend throwback.

When that's happening, I don't start side eying Pickett's work. I start - well, continue to, but with greater intensity - side eying the org's work and asking whether they could make it work with anything other than an absolutely can't miss situation there.

Exactly. Pickett may not be the greatest QB but he has had little chance to show himself or improve. The sample to this point can be put in the shredder. It’s useless for evaluation.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Exactly. Pickett may not be the greatest QB but he has had little chance to show himself or improve. The sample to this point can be put in the shredder. It’s useless for evaluation.

Mt will probably pass the 6 tds that Kp threw this season in half the starts

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Mt will probably pass the 6 tds that Kp threw this season in half the starts

And throw an equal amount of INT's. He's too careless with the ball. KP isn't careless enough

If MT stinks it up early, they should seriously consider Mason

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

And throw an equal amount of INT's. He's too careless with the ball. KP isn't careless enough

If MT stinks it up early, they should seriously consider Mason

To win or to tank?

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

To win or to tank?

To Win.

MR's biggest issue he lacks pocket presence (so no different than Mitch or KP). His arm is fine, he can read defenses. He's a happy medium between KP "Don't throw it unless you're absolutely sure" and MT "I'm throwing this pass regardless of the defenders in the area"

He also lacks mobility, but considering the lack of rollouts/waggles that this offense incorporates, I don't think it severely limits their philosophy

 

[Peat]

Have you watched any of these vids? Have you seen my posts last week about how KP refuses to come off his primary read?

It's obvious that there are plays to be made.

Yeah I've watched videos. And

a) We don't know they're accurate reflections of how the Steelers drew up plays and communicated them to the QBs - probably accurate enough but not always.

b) We don't know just how many guys the Steelers QBs are missing compared to other guys. Everyone misses some. How many? As a percentage? I wouldn't be surprised if Pickett was high, but we don't know how high, how bad, or not bad at all.

c) The most important one, I'll just quote Jaded again -

"when 95% of your throws are within five yards of the line of scrimmage and you are not allowed to throw to the middle of the field, not only do you not get the reps on mid-range and long throws needed to develop and to maintain sharpness"

Guys who are not sharp, not in rhythm, are going to miss stuff.

Ergo, of course the Steelers QBs miss stuff. The question is whether other QBs would miss it in their shoes too. I believe yes. I believe that the Steelers scheme is so foolishly conceived and called that it's going to prey on any QB that plays in it. Nothing about what we see from the Steelers leads me to doubt that's possible, and the alternative involves me believing that all the people who think Pickett, Trubisky and Rudolph can play in this league - which goes wide beyond the Steelers - are wrong, which seems unlikely.

If it was just Pickett, then maybe I'd feel different. If Pickett went out and Trubisky looked like a perfectly cromulent QB, I'd feel very different. If it was just Pickett and Trubisky and not Rothliesberger and Rudolph before them...

... but it's not these cases. There is a deep stench, and the fact other teams can get more out of guys nobody was calling as more talented before hand tells me where it's coming from.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

To Win.

MR's biggest issue he lacks pocket presence (so no different than Mitch or KP). His arm is fine, he can read defenses. He's a happy medium between KP "Don't throw it unless you're absolutely sure" and MT "I'm throwing this pass regardless of the defenders in the area"

He also lacks mobility, but considering the lack of rollouts/waggles that this offense incorporates, I don't think it severely limits their philosophy

That's a good explanation.

I was mostly joking.

I've been a MR supporter, in general.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

And throw an equal amount of INT's. He's too careless with the ball. KP isn't careless enough

If MT stinks it up early, they should seriously consider Mason

I fully agree with MR getting a shot. I don’t care about turnovers those happen when your trying to score.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

That's a good explanation.

I was mostly joking.

I've been a MR supporter, in general.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think he's the answer at all. But considering the offense and philosophy that Tomlin wants he seems like an appropriate choice.

I think he'll be a smidge better than Mitch and with how Tomlin loves to play on the margins it might be the difference between a W and L

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

But considering the offense and philosophy that Tomlin wants he seems like an appropriate choice.

I found a more appropriate choice for this offense:

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I fully agree with MR getting a shot. I don’t care about turnovers those happen when your trying to score.

Well Tomlin would disagree with you. Offensive turnovers make his gameplan and philosophy go out the window really quick.

Be interesting to see some stats on the Steelers compared to the rest of the league.

My hypothesis: other teams with a minus 1 turnover differential have a better record than Tomlin with the same differential. And then Tomlin has a better record if the differential is zero

 

[bigdaddyk88]

What Is The Most Turnovers By The Steelers In A Game Since 2007 | StatMuse

Since 2007, the Pittsburgh Steelers have their most turnovers in a game against the Browns on November 25, 2012, with 8 turnovers.

www.statmuse.com

So it definitely looks like without Ben they don’t want to turn it over but they have tons of muilt games in 2020 and prior

 

[TimmyD]

So if Pickett’s issues are all on the OC and he hasn’t been given a fair shake, then what will be said next season if (most likely when) he has the same issues under a new coordinator? Is that also going to get swept under the rug? Because the new coordinator is more than likely going to be someone who is an internal hire or a guy like Leftwich who has ties to the Steelers… so will it still be unfair then? How long of a rope does he get?

 

[bigdaddyk88]

So if Pickett’s issues are all on the OC and he hasn’t been given a fair shake, then what will be said next season if (most likely when) he has the same issues under a new coordinator? Is that also going to get swept under the rug? Because the new coordinator is more than likely going to be someone who is an internal hire or a guy like Leftwich who has ties to the Steelers… so will it still be unfair then? How long of a rope does he get?

Unless Art forces Tomlin to clean house and then has Andy and Khan bring in the offensive staff. Tell Tomlin to stay on the defensive side of the ball

 

[JTG]

Tomlin is not going to give up what is basically full reign. If that conversation comes to pass, Tomlin will want to be moved elsewhere. If there is one thing this guy has shown over the course of his career is that he's a control freak.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Tomlin is not going to give up what is basically full reign. If that conversation comes to pass, Tomlin will want to be moved elsewhere. If there is one thing this guy has shown over the course of his career is that he's a control freak.

Who said he would give up free reign. Head coaches always have final say on play call but he is already letting the replacements co oc call plays and do the game plan

 

[Peat]

So if Pickett’s issues are all on the OC and he hasn’t been given a fair shake, then what will be said next season if (most likely when) he has the same issues under a new coordinator? Is that also going to get swept under the rug? Because the new coordinator is more than likely going to be someone who is an internal hire or a guy like Leftwich who has ties to the Steelers… so will it still be unfair then? How long of a rope does he get?

Probably going to say that whatever potential was there has been killed so time to get rid and try again, even if you have the suspicion you're dooming that kid's career as well.

How much of is it fair to blame on Pickett and whether Pickett should be here long term are separate questions. If he doesn't look like the guy by the time it comes to making contract decisions, you can't keep him.

Tbh, in an ideal world, I'd move away now. Just with one 1st round pick, probably around 18th, and the amount of problems, doesn't strike me as practical. Maybe if we lost out and picked 11th and traded Tomlin for an extra pick and got aggressive about trading a big contract and in FA... doesn't sound likely.

 

[JTG]

Who said he would give up free reign. Head coaches always have final say on play call but he is already letting the replacements co oc call plays and do the game plan

And many coordinators have left here and said that Tomlin had meddled in the plans for the offense or the defense. At the end of the day, he does have the final say, you're right. The proof has been in the pudding for a long time.