I've been digging in on and off all day. It's got me feeling the tradedowns more and more. The number of 2nd-4th round guys I want to take fliers on vs the number of right at the top guys I feel really good about is really unbalanced imo.
OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: Super Bowl? Thats like a giant pot of chips or popcorn right?
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I've been digging in on and off all day. It's got me feeling the tradedowns more and more. The number of 2nd-4th round guys I want to take fliers on vs the number of right at the top guys I feel really good about is really unbalanced imo.
Goalie_Bob
1992 Vezina (2nd)
The TikTok deal with JuJu is one the biggest mountain from a molehill stories I have ever seen. When they were 11-0 nobody said crap. The media was just trying to protect the Steelers and make a scapegoat out of someone because the Steelers were a complete paper champion that season.
And, I think history as shown the problem with AB is AB.
And who is even left since AB went nuclear? Cam? I guess it is all his fault since he is the only one left.
Josey Wales
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Ari Meirov
@MySportsUpdate
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2m
The #Steelers are signing former #Vikings and #Bears DT Armon Watts, per his agent
@davidcanter
. Former sixth-round pick has eight career sacks.
@MySportsUpdate
·
2m
The #Steelers are signing former #Vikings and #Bears DT Armon Watts, per his agent
@davidcanter
. Former sixth-round pick has eight career sacks.
Agreed for sure — I think the 2-4th is kind of the sweet spot. Outside of the top 3 OTs and top 3 CBs, there really aren’t any guys where I think they should for sure stay put instead of trading back.
JTG
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Philly is my guess. It's an extra pick at 10. Jordan Davis is there. They have a strong locker room. It's the ideal situation for him.
Buddy Bizarre
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You've identified the problem right there.
It's results based thinking that has sunk this team for the past 10+ years. "Let JJSS have fun- we're winning!" It's no different than what TO did to the Dallas star years ago...it's a complete diss to the other team. But hey, no problems with that because we're winning. And you'll find plenty of people during that winning streak who thought JJSS should knock it off when it was public.
"We won with running the wheels off Bell, so we'll keep doing it. We don't need to integrate backups or divy the workload".
<Bell gets injured from overuse>
I mean I've got a laundry list of things under Tomlin's regime that indicates his tutelage and the environment he creates isn't conducive to a young man needing structure.
But if you want to defend this circus and its ringmaster, that's your prerogative. You'll be on the wrong side of history, but it's a free country
2 completely different things.
One is completely irrelevant (jjss etc). Just people trying a reason to bitch and moan.
One actually matters (bell) but so does winning games in the moment.
Buddy Bizarre
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They are two different things, but they are still connected. To me, this points to a haphazard and random approach to being a CEO (which is essentially what Tomlin is).
How many times has Tomlin told us he "goes with his gut" when making in-game decisions? The results bear that he's telling the truth. Bill Walsh said something along the lines of: the game is won Monday to Friday, not on Sundays. Walsh prepared for contingencies during the week because he knew he'd panic and not be able to make an optimal decision during the emotionally charged game.
It also appears Tomlin takes the same approach when dealing with personnel/co-workers. "These are grown men" he often spouts. I think everyone agrees that Ben was lackadaisical in his homework and preparation. Why were there no reports that Tomlin challenged Ben to get better? And before anyone comments that professionals shouldn't need motivation doesn't understand human behavior. I've dealt with CEO's/middle managers and even run into semi-professional athletes who admit they sometimes struggle with motivation. They think they've made it, so they don't put in the extra work. To be complacent is human. To be a good manager is to recognize that and find the appropriate tools to re-motivate your team.
Re: JJSS. Note I'm not some boomer who has an issue with tik tok. I get and understand branding and building that for young people is important. What I have an issue with is disrespecting your opponent before the battle has even begun.
2 points of contention.
1. Their not connected, because one is irrelevant no coach should even be paying attention to.
Tomlin has plenty of flaws, not “coming down” on guys like jjss for silly nonsense isnt one of them.
2. Head coaches (the position) get waaaay to much credit. Tomlin isnt a CEO, he is middle management. The GM/president is a CEO type. The players are the talent, the positional coaches are skills development, the coordinators are the micro strategists. The HC is the middle manager that keeps the trains running. And while he has his hands in every piece, hes not primarily driving anything, his job is to make sure all the other guys are doing their job.
Goalie_Bob
1992 Vezina (2nd)
TO and AB were very much the same. TO and JuJu are not even close to being the same. Again, do you believe that JuJu was the reason why the Steelers did not perform well down the stretch in 2020?
And Bell being used as a workhorse has nothing to do with creating structure for a young man.
Please present your laundry list of things that shows that Tomlin and the Steelers do not provide a good environment for a young man needing structure. And then think, do you believe that the only players you hear about are the only players that have issues and that the Steelers do not help anybody else? Every other player comes in as a fully formed adult and does not require any assistance?
Don't be so naïve.
Buddy Bizarre
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I'm unclear with which portion of their job is irrelevant?
And Tomlin is absolutely a "CEO" from a football standpoint or at minimum an Executive VP. He is responsible for all players and the support staff on the team. He's not a middle manager...that would be the OC/DC's.
In regards to your comment: And while he has his hands in every piece, hes not primarily driving anything, his job is to make sure all the other guys are doing their job.
I mean you've sunk your own argument here. I manage people who are managers. And if that manager has an employee who isn't doing their job, guess who gets asked questions about why that manager sucks? Me, because I'm ultimately responsible for coaching and training that manager to do better.
So I have a few choices: 1) get rid of that manager 2) coach him/her or 3) go directly to the employee that is f***ing up. I prefer route #2, but if that doesn't happen, then I'll choose other routes. History making clear that Tomlin does NONE of the 3. We call that dereliction of duty or quiet quitting
Buddy Bizarre
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No- JJSS's stupid antics weren't the sole reason the Steelers did poorly. But it didn't help. I mean, ask the Bengals if you're curious if that fired them up for their win. I'll save you some reading... it did
Bengals' Vonn Bell says hit on JuJu Smith-Schuster gave Cincinnati 'so much energy' in upset win over Steelers
Bell had a huge hit on Smith-Schuster that set the tone for the Bengals
www.cbssports.com
Did I say it did? Read my post more clearly. I said that Tomlin's haphazard approach to dealing with players mirrors his approach to playing time and it being merely a results based approach vs a process based one is fundamentally flawed and doesn't breed long term success.
I've been very consistent with my complaints about Tomlin. We've discussed Ben, Harris being told to "figure it out" when he asked for help. Players being asked for their release/traded, AB being coddled, Lev Bell smoking weed. I mean I could go on, but there are only 24 hours in a day.
What's that saying: when people show you who they consistently are, believe them? I've seen enough of MT in 15 years to know who he is (including his strengths)
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Breiden Fehoko has already been bigging up the off-ice transition support he's been receiving from the Steelers.
Every team has malcontents and people doing stupid stuff. Don't think the Steelers are anywhere near the lead there.
Every team has malcontents and people doing stupid stuff. Don't think the Steelers are anywhere near the lead there.
1. things like tic tok or TO antics are itrelevant not a job duty.
2. Sorry to tell you this but while your job is necessary (just like a HC) you are fungible (as well as most people including me, though in a different way)
Your neither the talent (whoever drives the day to day success) or a top level decision maker. Just like a HC, HC keep the trains running, (again which is necessary) but not a special skill set, its a position that a bad HC is a real tangible disadvantage but a “elite” HC isnt really meaningfully different from an above average one, the effect is capped because of the specific job duties are more pass/fail that a spectrum of value added talent.
Buddy Bizarre
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1. We definitely disagree here. The HC is certainly responsible for holding players accountable for actions that are detrimental to the team. I don't think there are many people who would agree with you on this point.
And yup- it's bonkers how much they (HC's) have to deal with, but this is why you hire good lieutenants to delegate and why they are paid millions.
2. Fungible? I'm not following your use of that word. Do you mean "dispensable"?
Regardless of your intention, I do agree with you here. The best HC's in my mind are essentially those that "do the least amount of damage". I highly encourage anyone to read this book about the Pats (BB, Brady, Kraft). You'll start to see some of BB's philosophies emerge. Basically, he admits he doesn't do anything special, but he avoids doing stupid things that sink his chances of winning.
It's just 1 portion of his responsibilities, but man we can talk about Tomlin's clock management gaffes for hours. This again points to his serious lack of event preparation...he admits in his pressers that he goes by his gut in terms of timeouts and philosophy. And with him doing the repeated errors in terms of clock management is an indication he hasn't learned from his incorrect choices. Is that a stupid thing that can sink your chance of winning? Sure is...especially at this level.
You can make the correct choice and still lose the game. You can make an incorrect choice and win the game. That's what I fear about Tomlin...he doesn't see the difference- only W's and L's and the results-oriented approach which is not repeatable. I mean ask any psychologist, statistician or any other subject matter expert in any field of your choosing: results are irrelevant, the process is most important.
There's a definite difference between not getting in your players' way to win the game and preparing them vs being extremely hands-off. MT has history and evidence that shows everyone he subscribes to the latter.
1. The key phrase is “detrimental to the team” if you think guy dances on Tic tok is detrimental, i just dont know what else to say. Or even a guy that acts like a clown when he scores a TD, hows it detrimental?
If a player doesnt practice seriously or disrupts practice or doesnt know the playbook etc. sure that detrimental but JJSS and TO have always been positive aspects of every team theyve been on, regardless if you or anyone esle doesnt like their antics.
Even AB until he goes operation shutdown is a positive aspect on your roster. And hes a legit loony toon.
2. By fungible i mean:
“(of a product or commodity) replaceable by another identical item; mutually interchangeable.”
Basically the position doesn't allow the employee to add value through skills, its are you competent or not.
If you want to make the argument that Tomlin is incompetent thats fine, we just disagree.
Haskins family is pissed and reading the report, wow wtf.
At first it seemed like an accident and now some sinister shit happened allegedly? Yikes.
At first it seemed like an accident and now some sinister shit happened allegedly? Yikes.
Buddy Bizarre
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1. You're too focused on the "tik tok" stuff. Look at it through a wider lens. It absolutely is detrimental to the team. Dancing on a logo is no different than talking trash to the other team in the press. Remember when Anthony Smith did that vs NE? Remember before the Jax playoff loss it happened too? Remember in the Covid season when Ebron got on Twitter talking about padding stats vs Cle? This all falls into the same category...it's merely a different avenue. Hmmm...speaking about that, I believe all 3 happened under Tomlin's watch. Super coincidental I'm sure
And if you feel that the dancing isn't impacting the team, then why did the Bengals get so riled up about it and want to kill him during the game? This is not a "non event" as you're claiming it to be
2. I've highlighted that MT is incompetent in clock management skills. I didn't see any rebuttal there. I've also pointed out his other specific shortcomings.
Basically if you dislike Sully, I can't believe anyone would feel differently about Tomlin. But this town has some sort of infatuation with tenured coaches that I'll never understand.
1. Its absolutely a non event. It doesnt efrect a game or season one iota.
Let me guess im sure you think the titans lost that one year because someone stepping on the terrible towel?
Its all nonsense that people care about only when you have a bad result, and falsly attribute it as a reason for that result.
Its silly.
2. Sure he isnt the best at clock mgmt. but hes good at other things and at the end of the day it all comes out in the wash, unless your totally incompetent and just cut the legs off your team (see Meyer, Urban).
Same deal with Sullivan, totally competent coach that goes as far as the talent takes him. Which IMO is all you can ask/expect for someone doing that job.
You can always nitpick some random aspect and ignore what that persons good at. But unless your Eddie O, theyre all Mike Sullivan.
Buddy Bizarre
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Well that's false because I provided a link with a direct source that indicates it did impact that game in question in 2020. The Bengals were fired up directly because of the dancing stuff.
Are you saying the story is fabricated by the writer or something else?
I think being “fired up” is about as useful as a wet diaper.
Its post hoc justification when it fits a certain narrative.
Nobody cares to account for the 1000 times since that the “fired up” team got their heads caved.
Buddy Bizarre
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Well at the end of the day, I've provided evidence for my line of thinking and you've only provided conjecture for your hypothesis. Guess we'll call it a disagreement
You didnt provide evidence, you provided someone saying they were fired up, and make a logical leap that, that anecdotal post hoc data is evidence.
The BEST case scenario is it is a single data point out of THOUSANDS of games. And thats only IF there is a real causation and not just correlation.
To attribute the reason for the Pats killing the Steelers was because Anthony smith talked shit rather than Anthony smith was a starting safety and couldnt cover, is wild man.
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