OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: Sneaking up onto training camp

[MrBrightside]

I just can't with this conversation. If it's somehow evidence that the Steelers over-prioritize defense because they re-signed Cam and Watt and Highsmith and Minkah, you're looking for an agenda to push. I personally think when you have really good players you should try to keep them, but maybe that's just me. What offensive player the last 5+ years has deserved big dollars? They did re-sign Johnson once, a move that most of the people who now bitch about them not spending money on offense criticized them for doing and were all in on trading him away. They signed two interior OL to mid-market deals. They apparently are trying to add Aiyuk and pay him top 5 WR money. Literally the only big ticket defensive free agent they've acquired basically since James Farrior was Queen and his addition clearly didn't prevent them from adding offense given their Aiyuk overtures. The offensive payroll is low because they don't have a QB making anything, and to this day no one has identified what QB they could/should have added at big dollars that would be better than Wilson or Fields. Cousins wasn't coming here. Who else?

If people want to bash Tomlin for being too conservative and hiring shitty coordinators and being a lousy game tactician, I'm all in on those criticisms. Blaming him for things he (and more to the point, that the GM's do and don't do), particularly when most of them actually make sense, just to push an agenda is nonsensical. They don't spend money on offense at the moment because they didn't draft offense for many years and when they started doing it, those guys either aren't worth being paid or aren't to the point in their careers to get paid.

 

[TooManyHumans]

But there is further context that I feel you're ignoring: coaching the offensive guys up so they in turn develop into better players, which you consequently sign them to C2's.

As we agreed on earlier, Tomlin seems to understand how to coach defensive players. It's the offensive side where people seem to hit a wall.

Claypool started out gangbusters, then cratered.
Muth had a strong rookie year, then plateaued.
Jones had a strong rookie year, now it looks like he's falling behind.
Harris had a decent rookie year, but hasn't taken further development steps.
Pickens was great his rookie year, but again seems to have plateaued.
Don't even get me started on KP8...

When is the last offensive guy we've signed to a C2 (or at least we wanted to sign?). Can't recall one in the past number of seasons, but my memory sucks nowadays lol

PS- I didn't read the other responses before hitting reply to you and they essentially said the same thing

Pickens plateaued? His yards per game, yards per target and yards per reception all went up last year. He led the league in yards per reception last year. He is still ascending but unfortunately depends on the QB to get him the ball.

 

[Peat]

And I'd argue apart from the WR2 position, most of the holes on offense have been reasonably addressed. If we don't get Aiyuk, in hindsight I probably would've given Mike Williams $10m on a 1 year deal like the Jets did. Hollywood Brown too but I think he wanted to go to KC.

I know Dan Moore Jr. doesn't have position flexibility but he's supposed to be that guy that could fill in for Broderick, except it doesn't look like Jones is really taking the reigns here. It'll be interesting to see who starts week 1 at LT if Fautanu is back at RT.

I don't know if I'd say Chicago really "learned" from their Fields mistake. They were just objectively terrible and took a kings ransom for the 1.01, and ended up with the 1.01 in an even better QB class. If bottoming out to get a franchise QB is how you rebuild, then yeah, no arguments from me there.

I don't know whether we agree or disagree on the OL being a big potential problem with the way it it leaked pressure in the Buffalo playoff game, has gone in pre-season, and generally been poor in pass protection and inconsistent in run blockng for a long time (albeit with different schemes and personnel).

I do know we disagree on the way they've solved it. I don't like relying on two rookies - one of them out of position - and a raw second year guy (who they're jerking about). Long term it pays off if they don't bust but short term it's going to result in problems and I think the short term problems increase the bust risk, both on the OL and elsewhere.

 

[Pens1566]

Might just be me, but I think Pickens is overrated around here. Tools/talent are certainly there, but I'm not sure he can really ever make it into the true top tier of WR1s in the league.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

It wasn’t the o line it was Jones that struggled with Buffalo. He is clearly hurt despite what he is saying. Moore hasn’t given up a pressure. The backups played well against Buffalo

 

[Night Shift]

Switzer was on the team because he was in bens bible study.

You're probably too young to know who or what we're taking about.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

You're probably too young to know who or what we're taking about.

You mean Barry the coach not Ryan the player my fault

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Pickens plateaued? His yards per game, yards per target and yards per reception all went up last year. He led the league in yards per reception last year. He is still ascending but unfortunately depends on the QB to get him the ball.

From a production standpoint I understand your point, but from an overall body of work I'd argue he's flattened. From his lack of willingness to block to him pouting, that factors into it as well. And I think I like Pickens more than most people on here.

There's also a ton of smoke from offensive players complaining about stuff:
-Chucks put up a stink and the next week he's benched
- Harris makes comments and he's not getting his 5th year picked up
- JD made his issues known and he's sent packing. Note he was exchanged for defensive help (not a shock when we're looking at these offensive vs defensive trends)
-Pickens also had issues and it's no wonder there's significant tire kicking to acquire BA

I will die on the hill that offensive players aren't getting as good of coaching as their defensive counterparts. That is the root cause of this issue. That is why we end up spending more on defense= because those guys are more likely to be more productive and therefore end up getting C2 contracts from us.

The offense keeps getting the draft resources and talent, but they seem to not bear fruit into C2 contracts. Again to not have 1 home grown guy on offense get a C2 for what, 5 years? That's very concerning

 

[MrBrightside]

Might just be me, but I think Pickens is overrated around here. Tools/talent are certainly there, but I'm not sure he can really ever make it into the true top tier of WR1s in the league.

I agree. He doesn't consistently separate and his effort is hit-and-miss. He's better suited as a #2 in every way other than his ego.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

DJ literally requested a trade because the Steelers weren’t going to extend him.
Najaee could still get an extension Smith loves him and with RW at Qb he will get to be a receiving option again
They said they would pay both Aiyuk and GP. They have 2 different skill sets and complement each other and would help make the offense QB friendly
GP is a Higgins DHop type

 

[ChaosAgent]

I don't buy into the D being over-resourced anymore. All the draft capital as of late has gone to the offense.

2021: R1 Harris O, R2 Freiermuth O, R3 Green O
2022: R1 Pickett O, R2 Pickens O, R3 Leal D
2023: R1 Jones O, R2 Porter D, R2 Benton D, R3 Washington O
2024: R1 Fantanu O, R2 Frazier O, R3 Wilson O, R3 Wilson D

4/4 1st round picks on offense and 10/14 1-3 round picks on offense.

The issues are the picks in bold being bad picks and the pick in italics looking concerning.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

There is a real possibility this next draft is mostly defensive

 

[Pens1566]

I agree. He doesn't consistently separate and his effort is hit-and-miss. He's better suited as a #2 in every way other than his ego.

He's living off of 1 or 2 highlight reel catches a year. Making the Sportscenter top 10 doesn't translate to winning.

And yeah, he's a f***ing headcase.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

He's living off of 1 or 2 highlight reel catches a year. Making the Sportscenter top 10 doesn't translate to winning.

And yeah, he's a f***ing headcase.

Dude lead the league in ypc last season. 2nd was Aiyuk

 

[T1K]

Pickens is not a great target earner. He needs that in his bag to be in the top tier of WRs. I still think he serves a purpose as a big play threat, but he needs someone opposite of him who can get open and move the chains. That’s why I was so excited about Aiyuk, but I feel like that isn’t gonna happen. There’s an outside chance Pickens does take that next step into the elite tier of WRs given the lack of target competition, but I’d say the likelihood of that is pretty low based off what we’ve seen so far in the preseason.

 

[Peat]

Pickens physical and technical traits are very clearly worth a shot as WR1.

Pickens' production is kind of WR1 worthy all things considering.

Pickens' mental traits are nowhere near. As a result, Pickens' ability to be that guy that distorts defensive patterns and is a regular safety blanket for the QB - what he needs to be a true WR1 - doesn't exist at this time. It's a one game sample, but you can go to Sullivan's breakdown of Fields in the Houston game to see it at its very worse, where Pickens' lack of effort and attention to detail kills two plays.

Whether he grows up and solves the puzzle we'll find out.

 

[JTG]

There is a real possibility this next draft is mostly defensive

It really should be. It's setting up well for us to take DL.

Might just be me, but I think Pickens is overrated around here. Tools/talent are certainly there, but I'm not sure he can really ever make it into the true top tier of WR1s in the league.

Pickens is not a great target earner. He needs that in his bag to be in the top tier of WRs. I still think he serves a purpose as a big play threat, but he needs someone opposite of him who can get open and move the chains. That’s why I was so excited about Aiyuk, but I feel like that isn’t gonna happen. There’s an outside chance Pickens does take that next step into the elite tier of WRs given the lack of target competition, but I’d say the likelihood of that is pretty low based off what we’ve seen so far in the preseason.

Pickens has said the last 2 years he has basically just ran go routes. When the line is not giving the QB time, he's not even looking at the go route.

I think if the line can be good, he should see the ball more. I'd also like to see him with it in his hands. He is a bully when he runs, so it'd be cool to get him into space.

I'd love to see Pickens with a guy like Herbert. He needs a QB that can really get it out there and give him an opportunity to make a play. Russ looks like Kenny, but GP's relationship with Fields is a really interesting one.

 

[Pens1566]

Dude lead the league in ypc last season. 2nd was Aiyuk

I mean, good for him?

Like I said, he's living off of a few big plays. One catch last year was 7.5% of his total yards and 20% of his TD total.

 

[TooManyHumans]

From a production standpoint I understand your point, but from an overall body of work I'd argue he's flattened. From his lack of willingness to block to him pouting, that factors into it as well. And I think I like Pickens more than most people on here.

There's also a ton of smoke from offensive players complaining about stuff:
-Chucks put up a stink and the next week he's benched
- Harris makes comments and he's not getting his 5th year picked up
- JD made his issues known and he's sent packing. Note he was exchanged for defensive help (not a shock when we're looking at these offensive vs defensive trends)
-Pickens also had issues and it's no wonder there's significant tire kicking to acquire BA

I will die on the hill that offensive players aren't getting as good of coaching as their defensive counterparts. That is the root cause of this issue. That is why we end up spending more on defense= because those guys are more likely to be more productive and therefore end up getting C2 contracts from us.

The offense keeps getting the draft resources and talent, but they seem to not bear fruit into C2 contracts. Again to not have 1 home grown guy on offense get a C2 for what, 5 years? That's very concerning

I agree that the offensive coaching has been bad. I didn't mean to imply disagreement with that. I simply don't agree that Pickens has plateaued. His production was better and he ran more routes last year and greatly improve at running after the catch. I think he's still getting better and I expect his best year so far this year. Hopefully the new WR coach rides him if he isn't giving good effort 100% of the time as that is unacceptable.

 

[TooManyHumans]

I mean, good for him?

Like I said, he's living off of a few big plays. One catch last year was 7.5% of his total yards and 20% of his TD total.

He's 23 and didn't even play all that much in college and has 801 and 1140 years his first two years. I get the disgruntlement with his attitude at times but I don't know what the hell people expect from a young WR if they think his production hasn't been good enough on a terrible passing offense with terrible QB play most of the time and when he wasn't even the guy seeing the most targets until DJ went down for a few weeks. I'd say that in the context of this offense last year, 1140 yards and leading the league in yards per catch is damn impressive.

 

[lastcupever75]

I don't buy into the D being over-resourced anymore. All the draft capital as of late has gone to the offense.

2021: R1 Harris O, R2 Freiermuth O, R3 Green O
2022: R1 Pickett O, R2 Pickens O, R3 Leal D
2023: R1 Jones O, R2 Porter D, R2 Benton D, R3 Washington O
2024: R1 Fantanu O, R2 Frazier O, R3 Wilson O, R3 Wilson D

4/4 1st round picks on offense and 10/14 1-3 round picks on offense.

The issues are the picks in bold being bad picks and the pick in italics looking concerning.

the offense has been crap for years now. ranking near the bottom of the league.

do you expect them not to address those areas?

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I don't buy into the D being over-resourced anymore. All the draft capital as of late has gone to the offense.

2021: R1 Harris O, R2 Freiermuth O, R3 Green O
2022: R1 Pickett O, R2 Pickens O, R3 Leal D
2023: R1 Jones O, R2 Porter D, R2 Benton D, R3 Washington O
2024: R1 Fantanu O, R2 Frazier O, R3 Wilson O, R3 Wilson D

4/4 1st round picks on offense and 10/14 1-3 round picks on offense.

The issues are the picks in bold being bad picks and the pick in italics looking concerning.

In terms of "resources", that term comes in a couple of different flavors: 1 is draft capital, and the other is cap allocation.

And your last sentence- yup, that's why I'm going down this rabbit hole with a root cause analysis:
- Player X on offense is bad
- Why is he bad?
- Was it a bad draft pick/talent?
-Was it lack of coaching/development?

The players being picked are in general, universally lauded. There are minor quibbles here and there, but for the most part you can't say they weren't talented. KP was a multi year starter at a DI school. Harris was in a top 5 CFB program.

But let's talk about Green. He was not put in a position to succeed. They shoe horned him into the C role and looked lost immediately. That's coaching.
Dotson playing well in LA by being on his more comfortable side. That's coaching.

I still say the dysfunctionality of the offense goes back to coaching and not putting players in positions to succeed.

My previous post:
I will die on the hill that offensive players aren't getting as good of coaching as their defensive counterparts. That is the root cause of this issue. That is why we end up spending more on defense= because those guys are more likely to be more productive and therefore end up getting C2 contracts from us.

The offense keeps getting the draft resources and talent, but they seem to not bear fruit into C2 contracts. Again to not have 1 home grown guy on offense get a C2 for what, 5 years? That's very concerning

 

[WickedWrister]

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Dotson still gave up more sacks combined that Issac and Daniels on his perfed side

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Dotson still gave up more sacks combined that Issac and Daniels on his perfed side

I didn't realize pass blocking was a Guard's only responsibility. While we can take PFF's grades with a big grain of salt he graded out well there and in the handful of Rams games I caught, he was playing well.

All signs point to Dotson being as equal to Daniels. Which leads me to say again, they missed out on a chance to have a home grown person get a C2 contract. But they didn't bc they yo-yo'd him out of position. Kind of what's happening to Jones now and what happened to K Green.