OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: Sneaking up onto training camp

[The Old Master]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1825574677433168172

can't blame him, but when you have a lot of young players coming in, you need a good ol coach. we had one of the best available and someone chose not to hire him. if it doesn't work out that's who needs blamed. imo

 

[bigdaddyk88]

can't blame him, but when you have a lot of young players coming in, you need a good ol coach. we had one of the best available and someone chose not to hire him. if it doesn't work out that's who needs blamed. imo

You do know that Mcvay has tried for multiple seasons to convince munch to work for him he doesn’t want to leave Denver because of his grandchildren

 

[MrBrightside]

People who are reaching to bash Tomlin by noting the defense is paid a lot more than the offense are inverting the cause and effect. The defense isn't paid more because they prefer to pay defensive players - the defense is paid more because the offense has zero skill guys who are worth paying that have gotten past their rookie deals.

 

[WickedWrister]

People who are reaching to bash Tomlin by noting the defense is paid a lot more than the offense are inverting the cause and effect. The defense isn't paid more because they prefer to pay defensive players - the defense is paid more because the offense has zero skill guys who are worth paying that have gotten past their rookie deals.

Haven't we been trying to trade for a ~$30m WR too .

Yeah I think it's just a function of being in this weird middle ground with the QB situation. Having such little money committed to the position without having a QB on a rookie contract is rare (I'm ignoring Fields for the purpose of this since we didn't draft him and didn't pick up his 5th year option). Really the only comparable is Las Vegas.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Haven't we been trying to trade for a ~$30m WR too .

Yeah I think it's just a function of being in this weird middle ground with the QB situation. Having such little money committed to the position without having a QB on a rookie contract is rare (I'm ignoring Fields for the purpose of this since we didn't draft him and didn't pick up his 5th year option). Really the only comparable is Las Vegas.

Yeah the 30 million wr would change the spending on offense right now our 2 highest paid players on offense are Guards and most likely neither will be here next season.
I am sure they will sign muth and Najee but the will have the entire o line on a rookie deal while entire list of out highest paid players will still be on defense without Aiyuk

 

[Peat]

Ehhh not sure I agree with all this. How you spend draft capital is more important than plugging holes in FA. I just think it's easier to do that on the defensive side of the ball.

Ben-1st round pick on Pickett and pairing him with a weapon in Pickens
Cole-2nd round pick on Frazier
B2B first round picks on Tackles.
1st round pick on an RB and 2nd on a TE.

I'm not saying that you're saying this, but I don't think it's fair to say we've ignored the offense.

I do think they've not paid enough attention to it.

I don't throwing a lot of recent draft capital at the position is enough attention when there's next to no second contract money invested there. Recent draft picks need help on the pitch to get there and if you don't have the sort of high quality veterans that are on usually on their second contract, it's tough. It's a very easy way to get a lot of guys not reaching their potential, as we've just seen.

And it seems really risky to me that after having a disaster season for the offence that's resulted in one recent first rounder traded and another not being given their 5th year option - doesn't look like the other high offensive pick from that year in Muth is getting an extension either at this point - they've decided to double down on "no money, just picks" by drafting all the young OL rather than getting in veteran help - also looks like they'll be shedding a veteran OL this year too - and trading away the veteran WR for a veteran CB and getting bargain options to replace him. I don't think it was a surprise the Pickett rebuild failed. I don't think it'll be a surprise if this OL rebuild fails either.

There needs to be a willingness to invest money and get some known quantities there to go with the draft picks. Until that happens, I think it's going to be harder to get the offence to happen.

People who are reaching to bash Tomlin by noting the defense is paid a lot more than the offense are inverting the cause and effect. The defense isn't paid more because they prefer to pay defensive players - the defense is paid more because the offense has zero skill guys who are worth paying that have gotten past their rookie deals.

Okay, first off, that's wrong. They don't have to pay really good guys coming off their rookie contracts and they can go and spend money on guys in FA and in trade if they don't have enough worthwhile guys of their own. Didn't have an ILB worth paying? Get Patrick Queen. Didn't have a Safety worth paying? Get Minkah Fitzpatrick.

They could do the same for offence too. They haven't.

Second, I wasn't really getting into this to bash Tomlin, but if we're going to make this about Tomlin's rep then "hasn't produced any guys on the offence worth paying and keeping in the last X years" isn't really a good thing.

So yeah. There's a reason the Steelers have ended up where they are, but they had to make some choices and the reason isn't flattering.

Haven't we been trying to trade for a ~$30m WR too .

They have but on the cheap. Took forever to make an offer the 49ers wanted and if you believe Breer's latest report, the offer to Aiyuk was on the low side too

They were in Orlando Brown too but got outbid. They were, to get a bit more modest, in on Mitch Morse but got outbid again.

If this pays off and they get Aiyuk on the cheap, then big congrats to him and hell yeah, that's what we want to see but I'd have preferred to see more. If it doesn't... then yeah, not giving too much credit for trying. Particularly when there's a whiff of he'd made it if he'd tried harder.

 

[MrBrightside]

Okay, first off, that's wrong. They don't have to pay really good guys coming off their rookie contracts and they can go and spend money on guys in FA and in trade if they don't have enough worthwhile guys of their own. Didn't have an ILB worth paying? Get Patrick Queen. Didn't have a Safety worth paying? Get Minkah Fitzpatrick.

They could do the same for offence too. They haven't.

Second, I wasn't really getting into this to bash Tomlin, but if we're going to make this about Tomlin's rep then "hasn't produced any guys on the offence worth paying and keeping in the last X years" isn't really a good thing.

So yeah. There's a reason the Steelers have ended up where they are, but they had to make some choices and the reason isn't flattering.

You're simply making stuff up now. Minkah was on his rookie deal when they traded for him and he was in Pittsburgh for 3 years before he got paid. Acting like keeping a guy they traded for 3 years later is some kind of purchase is ridiculous. Yes, they added Queen this offseason but that was after going the discount route with Holcomb and Roberts last offseason and Queen isn't getting that much more than Seumalo did last offseason.

The offense got old - Ben, Pouncey, DeCastro, AB - should they have just paid poor players just to do it? They are trying to basically overpay Aiyuk, but I'm sure you'd trash them for that for a different reason if they did. FFS - there's so much legitimate stuff to criticize the Steelers and Tomlin for creating false narratives to do it just undermines any actual argument.

 

[WickedWrister]

Yeah I mean it's all contingent on said 1st round picks being good and worthy of huge second contracts.

And I just fundamentally disagree on throwing big money at free agents as a sustainable long term team way to build your team. Especially the Tackle position. The very best guys almost never hit FA in the first place. And for the few that do, you have to compete with up to 31 other teams and are likely not getting a great deal. I don't mind paying the FA tax for Seumalo and James Daniels (Top 10ish at their positions) when it's a reasonably fair market for them.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Well it was just as much Cowher's team just as much as Bylsma won with "Theirren's team".

As we've talked repeatedly about the Pens, the same is true in most professional sports: players tune coaches out eventually. Sometimes that comes in Year 1 bc the coach is shitty (like Mike Johnston), but it generally sets in about Year 4.

So it's not that Tomlin is a bad coach. He just has worn out his welcome here (just like Theirren, Sullivan, etc)

How many Steelers players have been here 4 years? Watt, Boswell, and Highsmith is it

 

[Andy99]

How many Steelers players have been here 4 years? Watt, Boswell, and Highsmith is it

And Cam

 

[Peat]

You're simply making stuff up now. Minkah was on his rookie deal when they traded for him and he was in Pittsburgh for 3 years before he got paid. Acting like keeping a guy they traded for 3 years later is some kind of purchase is ridiculous. Yes, they added Queen this offseason but that was after going the discount route with Holcomb and Roberts last offseason and Queen isn't getting that much more than Seumalo did last offseason.

The offense got old - Ben, Pouncey, DeCastro, AB - should they have just paid poor players just to do it? They are trying to basically overpay Aiyuk, but I'm sure you'd trash them for that for a different reason if they did. FFS - there's so much legitimate stuff to criticize the Steelers and Tomlin for creating false narratives to do it just undermines any actual argument.

Everytime a team gives a guy a new contract then, yes, that's a purchase. You're handing over more money for their continued loyalty and as a result, have less money for everyone else.

And no, they should have gone and paid good players to do it. Pretty simple stuff. I'm not sure Aiyuk is truly as good as last year's numbers and worry that he'll be like sticking a fancy paint job on a car with transmission issues, but he is at least a gesture in the right direction. Just late.

Yeah I mean it's all contingent on said 1st round picks being good and worthy of huge second contracts.

And I just fundamentally disagree on throwing big money at free agents as a sustainable long term team way to build your team. Especially the Tackle position. The very best guys almost never hit FA in the first place. And for the few that do, you have to compete with up to 31 other teams and are likely not getting a great deal. I don't mind paying the FA tax for Seumalo and James Daniels (Top 10ish at their positions) when it's a reasonably fair market for them.

Feels like you're jumping a wee bit from "I wish they'd invested more money in quality players to help the draft picks along" to "build your team using expensive players". I'm not advocating for a Rams style death or glory charge at the Super Bowl through a bunch of trades and major signings (although I'd rather have their last 5 years and next 5 years than the Steelers' last 5 years and next 5 years). I'm talking plugging a couple more gaps here and there rather than going with a total youth movement.

Not necessarily great players either. Know what I wish the Steelers had got more than just about anything else this off-season? A passable veteran swing tackle (ironically the only thing I can think of off the top of my head is Chuks). A guy who could let Jones be LT and Fautanu be RT and be able to take over if something goes wrong. Would this guy probably be about five times as expensive as Moore? Yeah.

If that's the difference between those guys busting or not, that's really cheap.

Which is why after a certain point I don't mind if the team aren't getting a great deal in there here and now as long term, the best deal is always getting it right first time with a rebuild. Look at Chicago. They learned from Fields and have surrounded Williams with talent. If Williams sticks, do you think Bears funs will be cussing out the time they paid a 1st for DJ Moore and however much cap it is for Keenan Allen? Nope.

Maybe this would be a bit different if the Steelers were better at developing and keeping offensive talent but they've been decidedly bad at that for about a decade. They do a good job of developing talented prima donnas whose attitudes tire them out but that's not sustainable either. Right now their priority should be building an environment where that is no longer the case and that is going to need money.

 

[Peat]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1825509953307590697

 

[lastcupever75]

It was Lebeau and Arians team. Tomlin watched from the sideline

i really want to know if there was another coach out there that was told he had to keep the OC and DC the team was already employing

trying to remeber if barry switzer was told that before he got the dallas job

 

[lastcupever75]

But the reason the D costs so much is that they draft and develop good players like Watt and Cam and Highsmith and other guys who developed into good players. Minkah was the only big ticket guy they acquired and they did so when he was on his rookie deal. You can't have it both ways - they didn't buy their way into a good defense - they basically just paid their own guys based on good performance.

Punctuation is your friend.

haden

 

[WickedWrister]

Feels like you're jumping a wee bit from "I wish they'd invested more money in quality players to help the draft picks along" to "build your team using expensive players". I'm not advocating for a Rams style death or glory charge at the Super Bowl through a bunch of trades and major signings (although I'd rather have their last 5 years and next 5 years than the Steelers' last 5 years and next 5 years). I'm talking plugging a couple more gaps here and there rather than going with a total youth movement.

Not necessarily great players either. Know what I wish the Steelers had got more than just about anything else this off-season? A passable veteran swing tackle (ironically the only thing I can think of off the top of my head is Chuks). A guy who could let Jones be LT and Fautanu be RT and be able to take over if something goes wrong. Would this guy probably be about five times as expensive as Moore? Yeah.

If that's the difference between those guys busting or not, that's really cheap.

Which is why after a certain point I don't mind if the team aren't getting a great deal in there here and now as long term, the best deal is always getting it right first time with a rebuild. Look at Chicago. They learned from Fields and have surrounded Williams with talent. If Williams sticks, do you think Bears funs will be cussing out the time they paid a 1st for DJ Moore and however much cap it is for Keenan Allen? Nope.

Maybe this would be a bit different if the Steelers were better at developing and keeping offensive talent but they've been decidedly bad at that for about a decade. They do a good job of developing talented prima donnas whose attitudes tire them out but that's not sustainable either. Right now their priority should be building an environment where that is no longer the case and that is going to need money.

And I'd argue apart from the WR2 position, most of the holes on offense have been reasonably addressed. If we don't get Aiyuk, in hindsight I probably would've given Mike Williams $10m on a 1 year deal like the Jets did. Hollywood Brown too but I think he wanted to go to KC.

I know Dan Moore Jr. doesn't have position flexibility but he's supposed to be that guy that could fill in for Broderick, except it doesn't look like Jones is really taking the reigns here. It'll be interesting to see who starts week 1 at LT if Fautanu is back at RT.

I don't know if I'd say Chicago really "learned" from their Fields mistake. They were just objectively terrible and took a kings ransom for the 1.01, and ended up with the 1.01 in an even better QB class. If bottoming out to get a franchise QB is how you rebuild, then yeah, no arguments from me there.

 

[lastcupever75]

I do think they've not paid enough attention to it.

I don't throwing a lot of recent draft capital at the position is enough attention when there's next to no second contract money invested there. Recent draft picks need help on the pitch to get there and if you don't have the sort of high quality veterans that are on usually on their second contract, it's tough. It's a very easy way to get a lot of guys not reaching their potential, as we've just seen.

And it seems really risky to me that after having a disaster season for the offence that's resulted in one recent first rounder traded and another not being given their 5th year option - doesn't look like the other high offensive pick from that year in Muth is getting an extension either at this point - they've decided to double down on "no money, just picks" by drafting all the young OL rather than getting in veteran help - also looks like they'll be shedding a veteran OL this year too - and trading away the veteran WR for a veteran CB and getting bargain options to replace him. I don't think it was a surprise the Pickett rebuild failed. I don't think it'll be a surprise if this OL rebuild fails either.

There needs to be a willingness to invest money and get some known quantities there to go with the draft picks. Until that happens, I think it's going to be harder to get the offence to happen.



Okay, first off, that's wrong. They don't have to pay really good guys coming off their rookie contracts and they can go and spend money on guys in FA and in trade if they don't have enough worthwhile guys of their own. Didn't have an ILB worth paying? Get Patrick Queen. Didn't have a Safety worth paying? Get Minkah Fitzpatrick.

that's been happening for a long time..

2 WRs they drafted in the 1st round never saw a 2nd contract.
then mike wallace leads the team in receiving and they are out bid for him.

after winning the SB 43 with the best defense the league has seen in 25 years, they're 1st rd pick was yet another defnesive player... ziggy hood.
by passing max unger after almost losing the SB after darnell docket rolled our center over giving the AZ a safety.

when they added Haden, he was the 7th former first rd draft pick on the defense. cam, alualu, TJ, dupree, shazier, burns.
add in tuiit, davis and mitchell, a free agent they signed, as former 2nd rd draft picks.
drafting edmunds and then bush added to that number (minus shazier of course)

 

[JTG]

According to Dulac, don't fret about RT. Fautanu is going there.

You do know that Mcvay has tried for multiple seasons to convince munch to work for him he doesn’t want to leave Denver because of his grandchildren

It was, but I'm not sure it is anymore from this article from 2022. He plans on coaching for a long time. It'd be nice to see him land with a young line again and bring them up the way he did with Villanueva, Foster, Pouncey, Decastro, and Gilbert

Mike Munchak talks about his departure from the Steelers, and if he would ever return

The Hall of Fame player and coach isn’t ready to call it a career. Could a reunion in Pittsburgh be on the horizon?

www.behindthesteelcurtain.com

 

[Night Shift]

i really want to know if there was another coach out there that was told he had to keep the OC and DC the team was already employing

trying to remeber if barry switzer was told that before he got the dallas job

Plus Switzer lasted as long as Tomlin should have.

By reading some of the recent posts, people love making up excuses for him.

 

[TooManyHumans]

that's been happening for a long time..

2 WRs they drafted in the 1st round never saw a 2nd contract.
then mike wallace leads the team in receiving and they are out bid for him.

after winning the SB 43 with the best defense the league has seen in 25 years, they're 1st rd pick was yet another defnesive player... ziggy hood.
by passing max unger after almost losing the SB after darnell docket rolled our center over giving the AZ a safety.

when they added Haden, he was the 7th former first rd draft pick on the defense. cam, alualu, TJ, dupree, shazier, burns.
add in tuiit, davis and mitchell, a free agent they signed, as former 2nd rd draft picks.
drafting edmunds and then bush added to that number (minus shazier of course)

Giving Wallace's money to AB was a brilliant move.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

People who are reaching to bash Tomlin by noting the defense is paid a lot more than the offense are inverting the cause and effect. The defense isn't paid more because they prefer to pay defensive players - the defense is paid more because the offense has zero skill guys who are worth paying that have gotten past their rookie deals.

But there is further context that I feel you're ignoring: coaching the offensive guys up so they in turn develop into better players, which you consequently sign them to C2's.

As we agreed on earlier, Tomlin seems to understand how to coach defensive players. It's the offensive side where people seem to hit a wall.

Claypool started out gangbusters, then cratered.
Muth had a strong rookie year, then plateaued.
Jones had a strong rookie year, now it looks like he's falling behind.
Harris had a decent rookie year, but hasn't taken further development steps.
Pickens was great his rookie year, but again seems to have plateaued.
Don't even get me started on KP8...

When is the last offensive guy we've signed to a C2 (or at least we wanted to sign?). Can't recall one in the past number of seasons, but my memory sucks nowadays lol

PS- I didn't read the other responses before hitting reply to you and they essentially said the same thing

 

[Pens1566]

But there is further context that I feel you're ignoring: coaching the offensive guys up so they in turn develop into better players, which you consequently sign them to C2's.

As we agreed on earlier, Tomlin seems to understand how to coach defensive players. It's the offensive side where people seem to hit a wall.

Claypool started out gangbusters, then cratered.
Muth had a strong rookie year, then plateaued.
Jones had a strong rookie year, now it looks like he's falling behind.
Harris had a decent rookie year, but hasn't taken further development steps.
Pickens was great his rookie year, but again seems to have plateaued.
Don't even get me started on KP8...

When is the last offensive guy we've signed to a C2 (or at least we wanted to sign?). Can't recall one in the past number of seasons, but my memory sucks nowadays lol

For non QBs ... AB?

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

How many Steelers players have been here 4 years? Watt, Boswell, and Highsmith is it

Minkah?

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

For non QBs ... AB?

Seems about right. That was a very long time ago...

 

[bigdaddyk88]

For non QBs ... AB?

Technically its juju but that was a 1 year deal when his market wasn’t great then he went to kc

Plus Switzer lasted as long as Tomlin should have.

By reading some of the recent posts, people love making up excuses for him.

Switzer was on the team because he was in bens bible study.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

But there is further context that I feel you're ignoring: coaching the offensive guys up so they in turn develop into better players, which you consequently sign them to C2's.

As we agreed on earlier, Tomlin seems to understand how to coach defensive players. It's the offensive side where people seem to hit a wall.

Claypool started out gangbusters, then cratered.
Muth had a strong rookie year, then plateaued.
Jones had a strong rookie year, now it looks like he's falling behind.
Harris had a decent rookie year, but hasn't taken further development steps.
Pickens was great his rookie year, but again seems to have plateaued.
Don't even get me started on KP8...

When is the last offensive guy we've signed to a C2 (or at least we wanted to sign?). Can't recall one in the past number of seasons, but my memory sucks nowadays lol

PS- I didn't read the other responses before hitting reply to you and they essentially said the same thing

Some of it is on the players themselves. Muth is hurt often and GP is only has good as the QB throwing the ball. Muth also saw his decrease because of QB play. Harris has done everything you can ask behind the o line and lack of passing game