GDT: The Pittsburgher Thread: Football

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Why can't both be true?

Most agree on two things.

1. Belichick is a great coach, albeit a morally dubious tool.

2. Jones has a ton of potential and was underrated in the draft.

It doesn't need to be one or the other.

You and I talked last spring and if you recall I badly wanted Jones because of his intelligence and accuracy.

I thought he would be the second best QB in this draft after Lawrence.

But for anyone to say he didn’t land in the ideal situation for his talents is being disingenuous as hell.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

You and I talked last spring and if you recall I badly wanted Jones because of his intelligence and accuracy.

I thought he would be the second best QB in this draft after Lawrence.

But for anyone to say he didn’t land in the ideal situation for his talents is being disingenuous as hell.

We agreed on that last Spring.

And my statement a couple of posts ago agrees with you now.

The skill set that made Brady great, reads, accuracy, etc., well Jones ticks off many of the same boxes.

Not even remotely comparing the two.

Simply saying that to step into the same system that Brady ran fits Jones very well.

That does not mean that Jones' skills wouldn't translate elsewhere.

Again, my point is that both things can be true. Jones is a great talent and fell into a great situation.

 

[Night Shift]

Well the cba limits practice and amount of time players can spend at the facility. Limited number of padded practices

Then apparently they only do the bare minimum of the max requirement. According to the vets that stated they need more practice time.

 

[ziggyjoe212]

Of course he lucked into it.

Going into a system that fit him like a T under the tutelage of BB is a massive stroke of luck.

Jones did not luck into anything. The talent around him is arguably the worst in the league. He has good coaches but he's a good player in his own right.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

We agreed on that last Spring.

And my statement a couple of posts ago agrees with you now.

The skill set that made Brady great, reads, accuracy, etc., well Jones ticks off many of the same boxes.

Not even remotely comparing the two.

Simply saying that to step into the same system that Brady ran fits Jones very well.

That does not mean that Jones' skills wouldn't translate elsewhere.

Again, my point is that both things can be true. Jones is a great talent and fell into a great situation.

But I never said he wouldn’t do well elsewhere though - I said he lucked into the perfect situation.

Can you honestly say he would be doing this well under say, the Urban Myer shit show?

It’s a little unfair to his peers to expect them to be doing as well without the massive advantages Jones lucked into.

Granted Lawrence is the only one I’ve seen who I think flashes future potential greatness of the others.

However, anyone who suggests that being in Jax, NYJ, Chi etc offers the same massive advantages as being with Hoodie is again, being extremely disingenuous.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Jones did not luck into anything. The talent around him is arguably the worst in the league. He has good coaches but he's a good player in his own right.

So landing with a team that has the best coaching in the league, in a system ideal for his strengths isn’t lucky?

Are you suggesting Jones and his agent somehow manipulated the draft process to get to NE?

I guess Bradshaw landing with Noll, Montana with Walsh, Mahomes with Reid etc had no elements of good fortune for those guys either?

 

[DanielPlainview]

Why don’t you explain what a system QB is, because you are the one rambling on about it.

I said he landed in the ideal system for his talent under the best coach in the league - how you got to where we are now is beyond me.

And BB passing offense is all about rhythmic timing and quick reads.

You are misinterpreting the philosophy of E-P over how BB runs it.

Lol no you’re the one implying Jones is a system quarterback, which you of course know the definition but are for some reason trying to play ignorant. But to refresh your memory, a system QB is a QB who owes his success to playing a system that caters to their abilities above what is normal.

Jones’ skill set would have him seeing success in every system outside of Baltimore.

BB’s offense is highly adaptable. But above all it requires a high IQ QB who can put the ball in a teacup

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Lol no you’re the one implying Jones is a system quarterback, which you of course know the definition but are for some reason trying to play ignorant. But to refresh your memory, a system QB is a QB who owes his success to playing a system that caters to their abilities above what is normal.

Jones’ skill set would have him seeing success in every system outside of Baltimore.

BB’s offense is highly adaptable. But above all it requires a high IQ QB who can put the ball in a teacup

Nah, you decided to pretend I implied it.

Saying he got lucky to be with the best coach in the league to play in a system designed around timing and accuracy, that takes a methodical QB to run - implies those are his talents and an ideal situation for him.

It has nothing to do with whatever you think it does.

If you believe he would have as much success under Myer or Saleh for instance, you are either delusional as hell or disingenuous as hell.

Playing under BB in that system is great fortune for Jones, no matter how you want to spin this.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Jones did not luck into anything. The talent around him is arguably the worst in the league. He has good coaches but he's a good player in his own right.

He came in has the most pro ready safest floor lowest ceiling and it has played out that way. They aren’t asking him to win the game just be a game manager and not lose it.

 

[edog37]

Pickett is a 23 year old playing college ball. His pocket presence isn't good. He has happy feet. His arm strength is so-so. His accuracy is above average but not great. He has future journeyman written all over him

disagree strongly. He has solid pocket presence for a college QB. Not sure where the happy feet comment comes from, but he is not jittery back there. If you are comparing him to an established NFL QB, then yes, you might have points, but rarely do college guys come out fully polished. He has the ability to extend plays & reads coverages very well. He isn't one to get rattled easily & has a high football IQ. Regardless of what people may think about his fake slide, that was a heads up play & shows creativity. The only thing I fear if the Steelers get a chance to pick him is his continued development. Currently, the system in place for accountability & development is significantly lacking under Tomlin. We have all seen that.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Then apparently they only do the bare minimum of the max requirement. According to the vets that stated they need more practice time.

They are more than welcome to stay after as a group and work on their own. They are only supposed to spend 12 hours at the facility per day and 14 padded practices during the first 11 weeks of the season. Most vets get Wednesday off

 

[edog37]

Valedictorian of summer school

not even close.

 

[DanielPlainview]

Nah, you decided to pretend I implied it.

Saying he got lucky to be with the best coach in the league to play in a system designed around timing and accuracy, that takes a methodical QB to run - implies those are his talents and an ideal situation for him.

It has nothing to do with whatever you think it does.

If you believe he would have as much success under Myer or Saleh for instance, you are either delusional as hell or disingenuous as hell.

Playing under BB in that system is great fortune for Jones, no matter how you want to spin this.

I’m not pretending anything. You’re implying his performance is due to where/ for who he’s playing. This is nonsense.

Bill doesn’t run the Air Coryell. Timing is not a huge part of it. Quick read slants and outs are not timing routes but can look like it when run efficiently. Bill’s offense largely relies on presnap reads and hot routes, requiring a smart QB and a high amount of chemistry between the passer and receivers. Jones having such a grasp of the offense so quickly says a lot about his abilities.

The fact he’s performing this well in a complex offense with scrap heap receivers says he’d be performing well just about anywhere

 

[Pens1566]

not even close.

It's widely regarded as a less than stellar class, so ... uh yeah.

 

[edog37]

It's widely regarded as a less than stellar class, so ... uh yeah.

so it isn't the 2004 class, so what....doesn't mean anything with regards to how players turn out.

 

[Night Shift]

They are more than welcome to stay after as a group and work on their own. They are only supposed to spend 12 hours at the facility per day and 14 padded practices during the first 11 weeks of the season. Most vets get Wednesday off

Well your boy Dumblin doesn't know what he's talking about or what he is doing. Heyward also had a tweet somewhere that supported Schoberts claim that their practice intensity is in question.


Mike Tomlin Says ‘No Issue’ with Steelers Practice Intensity, Downplayed Joe Schobert’s Postgame Remarks

 

[DanielPlainview]

disagree strongly. He has solid pocket presence for a college QB. Not sure where the happy feet comment comes from, but he is not jittery back there. If you are comparing him to an established NFL QB, then yes, you might have points, but rarely do college guys come out fully polished. He has the ability to extend plays & reads coverages very well. He isn't one to get rattled easily & has a high football IQ. Regardless of what people may think about his fake slide, that was a heads up play & shows creativity. The only thing I fear if the Steelers get a chance to pick him is his continued development. Currently, the system in place for accountability & development is significantly lacking under Tomlin. We have all seen that.

Disagree all you want, the fact is the guy is often frantic on pass plays. You want to see poise in the face of pressure. So unless you think he has the ability to play like a young Ben or Brett Favre, and you can stomach the outcomes of such risk-taking, I’d stay clear

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Well your boy Dumblin doesn't know what he's talking about or what he is doing. Heyward also had a tweet somewhere that supported Schoberts claim that their practice intensity is in question.


Mike Tomlin Says ‘No Issue’ with Steelers Practice Intensity, Downplayed Joe Schobert’s Postgame Remarks

And he put them in pads all week to prepare for Bmore. Again your limited to the amount of padded practices thanks to the cba. No practice can last 2.5 hours and they can only spend 4 hours a day on the field. It’s more walk through. You have 14 padded practices you can use through the 11 weeks and it can’t be 3 days in roll. After week 11 you can’t add more padded practices

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I’m not pretending anything. You’re implying his performance is due to where/ for who he’s playing. This is nonsense.

Bill doesn’t run the Air Coryell. Timing is not a huge part of it. Quick read slants and outs are not timing routes but can look like it when run efficiently. Bill’s offense largely relies on presnap reads and hot routes, requiring a smart QB and a high amount of chemistry between the passer and receivers. Jones having such a grasp of the offense so quickly says a lot about his abilities.

The fact he’s performing this well in a complex offense with scrap heap receivers says he’d be performing well just about anywhere

This is one of the dumbest posts I’ve read on here - BB passing offense is all about timing and progression reads.

Every QB has a system that is ideal for them, how you decided to push some other notion is silliness.

But feel free to grind away on your bizarre crusade.

Jones playing for BB in that offense is going to be remarkably different than playing for the Myers and Salehs of the NFL.

Pushing the this comical idea it wouldn’t matter is nothing but pure ignorance.

 

[ziggyjoe212]

So landing with a team that has the best coaching in the league, in a system ideal for his strengths isn’t lucky?

Are you suggesting Jones and his agent somehow manipulated the draft process to get to NE?

I guess Bradshaw landing with Noll, Montana with Walsh, Mahomes with Reid etc had no elements of good fortune for those guys either?

I don't know how one manipulates the draft. Not sure what you're talking about.

He is lucky to be on a well coached team, and he also unlucky to be on a team with literally zero good offensive players.
The Steelers have a relatively bad offense and I don't think a single offensive player on NE would start here (excluding O line).

Point is good coaching can only take you so far. Jones is having a very impressive rookie season.

 

[Night Shift]

And he put them in pads all week to prepare for Bmore. Again your limited to the amount of padded practices thanks to the cba. No practice can last 2.5 hours and they can only spend 4 hours a day on the field. It’s more walk through. You have 14 padded practices you can use through the 11 weeks and it can’t be 3 days in roll. After week 11 you can’t add more padded practices

Ok, good for last week I guess?

As ive said thousands of times much inconsistency with this highschool coaching staff. Especially when your players are calling it out.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I don't know how one manipulates the draft. Not sure what you're talking about.

He is lucky to be on a well coached team, and he also unlucky to be on a team with literally zero good offensive players.
The Steelers have a relatively bad offense and I don't think a single offensive player on NE would start here (excluding O line).

Point is good coaching can only take you so far. Jones is having a very impressive rookie season.

Of course you can’t manipulate the draft - that’s the entire point of a guy’s fortune where he lands being up to fate.

Also, why are you making respective skill players some big issue when guys like Lawrence and Wilson have some of the worst in the league?

Can you even name one skill player from the Jets or Jags without looking it up?

There is zero chance that if Jones ended up on the Jets, Jags, Bears or Niners, that he would be sitting first in his conference.

Dude lucked into the ideal situation. Which is exactly why people with brains didn’t want him to fall into Hoodie’s lap.

They were the perfect marriage.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

But I never said he wouldn’t do well elsewhere though - I said he lucked into the perfect situation.

Can you honestly say he would be doing this well under say, the Urban Myer shit show?

It’s a little unfair to his peers to expect them to be doing as well without the massive advantages Jones lucked into.

Granted Lawrence is the only one I’ve seen who I think flashes future potential greatness of the others.

However, anyone who suggests that being in Jax, NYJ, Chi etc offers the same massive advantages as being with Hoodie is again, being extremely disingenuous.

I think that we keep agreeing.

 

[DanielPlainview]

This is one of the dumbest posts I’ve read on here - BB passing offense is all about timing and progression reads.

Every QB has a system that is ideal for them, how you decided to push some other notion is silliness.

But feel free to grind away on your bizarre crusade.

Jones playing for BB in that offense is going to be remarkably different than playing for the Myers and Salehs of the NFL.

Pushing the this comical idea it wouldn’t matter is nothing but pure ignorance.

You are straight up talking out of your ass. Bill’s E-P offense is all about presnap reads and chemistry. How the f*** do you have timing routes when the routes aren’t concrete till the snap? You can’t, and they don’t. You’re falling for the illusion that they are because when it’s run correctly, the ball is out very quickly. Brady dominated LeBeau this way because their offense cuts zone defenses to shreds, and you’d swear they were running a timing-based offense because of how they move the ball.

You’re having trouble accepting that Jones is freaking good. Put him on the Bears or 49ers and they’re performing better on offense, guaranteed.

 

[JTG]

To play QB for New England, football sense is first and foremost the most important facet of a player and it's not even close. Belichick can draw up a gameplan for any QB, but where his QBs differ than most is they understand the confines of the system, and they are smart enough to make calls and float within that system. Mac Jones can absolutely do that. Will he win any passing titles? Probably not, but I guarantee he carves defenses up under Belichick.