The Peter DeBoer thread

[ThePSEGPowerPoster]

I'm with tycobb. I think Volchenkov is a scapegoat. He hasn't been our worst D-Man nor has he been our best.

Among ALL NHL D-MEN:

Blocked Shots rankings - Volchenkov is 5th in the entire NHL (10). He's 1 behind 2nd. That's given the limited minutes he plays. He has also not taken 1 penalty, is a -1, and has 2 assists.

By all means, let me reiterate, I'm not saying he's the greatest D-Man ever. Or even good. But the idea that removing Volchenkov suddenly solves our problems is a bit extreme. I think people just stare him down in game and wait for him to make mistakes. And then attack.

 

[Richer's Ghost]

I'm with tycobb. I think Volchenkov is a scapegoat. He hasn't been our worst D-Man nor has he been our best.

Among ALL NHL D-MEN:

Blocked Shots rankings - Volchenkov is 5th in the entire NHL (10). He's 1 behind 2nd. That's given the limited minutes he plays. He has also not taken 1 penalty, is a -1, and has 2 assists.

By all means, let me reiterate, I'm not saying he's the greatest D-Man ever. Or even good. But the idea that removing Volchenkov suddenly solves our problems is a bit extreme. I think people just stare him down in game and wait for him to make mistakes. And then attack.

when you're constantly screening your own goalie, you're gonna get hit with the puck more often as was the case on the game winner last night.

I kid, I kid...

 

[JK3]

Sad to say even if Volch is not in the lineup we're not going to be winning many games with the way everyone is playing. Yeah Volch blows and he makes too much money but he is not the end all be all of our problems.

 

[tycobb]

certain posters use it all the time to **** on specific players, particularly brodeur.

according to fenwick/corsi, Volch played an awesome game last night. Please.

why even bother watching the game? the numbers tell you everything.

Do you even know what Fenwick/corsi measure? We Volch had an assist and two shots last night. He wasn't awful and the goal he tipped in is a play EVER nhl player tries to block.

http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/6/26/sho...ation-between-scoring-chances-and-shot-totals

 

[Uli Hiemer]

Do you even know what Fenwick/corsi measure? We Volch had an assist and two shots last night. He wasn't awful and the goal he tipped in is a play EVER nhl player tries to block.

http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/6/26/sho...ation-between-scoring-chances-and-shot-totals

I'm not interested. I know enough about it to not put all my thoughts about hockey into "stats" I watch the game...let the gurus look at the stats, and explain to me how great of a puck possession team the Devils are, and how goaltending is the only issue.

 

[Officer Rod Farva]

advanced stats dont mean ****. wins and losses do. we're 0-4.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

I'm with tycobb. I think Volchenkov is a scapegoat. He hasn't been our worst D-Man nor has he been our best.

Among ALL NHL D-MEN:

Blocked Shots rankings - Volchenkov is 5th in the entire NHL (10). He's 1 behind 2nd. That's given the limited minutes he plays. He has also not taken 1 penalty, is a -1, and has 2 assists.

By all means, let me reiterate, I'm not saying he's the greatest D-Man ever. Or even good. But the idea that removing Volchenkov suddenly solves our problems is a bit extreme. I think people just stare him down in game and wait for him to make mistakes. And then attack.

Yes he most certainly has been.

 

[Bleedred]

If Volchenkov hasn't been our worst defenseman, who has?

 

[AfroThunder396]

Volchenkov has been our worst defenseman.

Harrold has been the 2nd worst.

Larsson is #3.

 

[ThePSEGPowerPoster]

I'm not interested. I know enough about it to not put all my thoughts about hockey into "stats" I watch the game...let the gurus look at the stats, and explain to me how great of a puck possession team the Devils are, and how goaltending is the only issue.

I think that's an incredible, over-simplification of what the advanced metrics said of the Devils last year. Though every advanced metric has flaws, a combination of a few can help us better understand our team and predict future outcomes. Advanced metrics can help identify problems.

Obviously there's an endless list of intangibles and unquantifiable aspects of the game that will always make it so statistics are imperfect, but to ignore statistics and hide behind your knowledge/eyes is just as ignorant relying solely on statistics. Especially when you refuse to understand the very statistics you insult and bemoan.

I am very open to understanding the lens you view the game with. I want to know why my data disagrees with yours. I want to better understand the garbage we're seeing. So please don't take this as me touting statistics and disregarding your viewpoint.

And by the way, I don't think Volchenkov has been the worst D on the ice in any of the 4 games we've played. And my eyes and the metrics have both supported that. You can call me blind and point out exactly what makes him worse than Greene/Larsson Game 1, Zidlicky/Greene Game 2, Harrold Game 3, or Greene Game 4, and I'll listen.

 

[Wingman77]

The games have televised been on MSG+ for those who haven't watched yet

 

[tycobb]

I'm not interested. I know enough about it to not put all my thoughts about hockey into "stats" I watch the game...let the gurus look at the stats, and explain to me how great of a puck possession team the Devils are, and how goaltending is the only issue.

I find this so bizarre. Last season Hedberg at age 39 was probably the worst goalie in the league. So for 40% of the season we had the worst goalie in the league starting.

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nhl/stats/team-shot-differential-per-game/2012/

Just look at the teams that are below us. You will notice that we were the only team in the top 13 to miss the playoffs.

 

[ThePSEGPowerPoster]

Yes he most certainly has been.

If Volchenkov hasn't been our worst defenseman, who has?

Volchenkov has been our worst defenseman.

Harrold has been the 2nd worst.

Larsson is #3.

Clearly I'm in the minority and that's fine. I'm very open to the possibility that I'm wrong. However the production we've seen with him on the ice and the lack of negative production we've seen with him on the ice is nearly neutral. And I'm not even talking about +/-. With Volchenkov on the ice we've let up the least amount of shots, blocked the most shots, and he's among our top 3 D in goals while on ice. That's while not playing any PP minutes and playing the least amount of ES minutes.

Yes he's slow as dirt. Yes he's getting blown by a lot this year. But he's also shown a ton of positives that people ignore because he's slow. He's cleared the zone very well this year which was the biggest knock a lot of you had on him prior to the season.

Greene has been flat out awful. He's bought a lot of real estate on "benefit of the doubt boulevard" (and I agree) but he's been awful. He was bad last night outside of one creative rush that nearly resulted in a breakaway the other way. He was very much involved in the goal that was scored when Clowe went down. He's got 3 Hits in 4 games, 6 BS in 4 games, and is a -1 with a penalty tossed in. Oh and he's produced nothing offensively. Zero.

Greene has been, in my opinion, our worst D. But it's so hard to escape the mindset that A-Train is awful that people will refuse to acknowledge how bad he's been.

 

[Uli Hiemer]

I think that's an incredible, over-simplification of what the advanced metrics said of the Devils last year. Though every advanced metric has flaws, a combination of a few can help us better understand our team and predict future outcomes. Advanced metrics can help identify problems.

Obviously there's an endless list of intangibles and unquantifiable aspects of the game that will always make it so statistics are imperfect, but to ignore statistics and hide behind your knowledge/eyes is just as ignorant relying solely on statistics. Especially when you refuse to understand the very statistics you insult and bemoan.

I am very open to understanding the lens you view the game with. I want to know why my data disagrees with yours. I want to better understand the garbage we're seeing. So please don't take this as me touting statistics and disregarding your viewpoint.

And by the way, I don't think Volchenkov has been the worst D on the ice in any of the 4 games we've played. And my eyes and the metrics have both supported that. You can call me blind and point out exactly what makes him worse than Greene/Larsson Game 1, Zidlicky/Greene Game 2, Harrold Game 3, or Greene Game 4, and I'll listen.

When did I ever say they have no merit? I said I don't put all my thoughts into hockey based on numbers.

 

[tycobb]

I think the bigger problem is the play of our forwards. We lost last night because the forwards could not get the puck out of our zone. I don't think we should expect to win if the other team gets 10 more shooting attempts.

 

[ThePSEGPowerPoster]

When did I ever say they have no merit? I said I don't put all my thoughts into hockey based on numbers.

Then I was wrong in my assumption. Since you incorrectly stated what Fenwick/Corsi demonstrates I took it as an unwillingness to understand the statistics. And since you were pretty against their use I took it as an unwillingness to consider its value.

 

[Cowbell232]

Guys: This is the Peter DeBoer thread.

If you want to talk about how he's utilizing players that's one thing. But we're debating the players themselves and that goes into a different topic. The fact that those same players are on the team is a management topic. Not for this thread.

Okay? Okay. Great.

 

[TrufleShufle]

I think the only thing that doesn't warrant a response is your personal attack. I'm not the first nor the last poster you disagree with that you'll refer to as "the Skip Bayless of this board".

Like I said, I'm very open to the possibility that I'm wrong about anything I say. I'm not perfect. My opinions will never be 100% correct and that's awesome. Otherwise life would be pretty boring.

From what I've seen I think Greene has been worse than Volchenkov. Though I"ll, again, reiterate that I don't believe Volch has been good at all.

That's debatable but everything else your saying holds a lot of weight, and I don't think he has been playing as bad as everyone wants to say he has.

I look at Volch and Gionta to this boards as that friend every group has that if he says a joke in which if anyone else were to say it, it would be hilarious. But because he said it, he gets a "shut up dude.."

He made his bed with other stuff he did in the past and nothing he can ever say or do will be recognized, but when he screws up he is going to get hell for it.

So as much as you want to talk about what Volch brings to the table (while acknowledging his faults) and me with Gionta, it doesn't matter. Everyone's mind is made up. "Bad at every facet of hockey! "

 

[captainscott]

Volchenkov has been our worst defenseman.

Harrold has been the 2nd worst.

Larsson is #3.

problem is harrold and volchenkov are both like 6 or 7 guys and we have them 5 or 6.

harrold spotted at the number 6 slot against the right opponent can still serve a purpose him as a nightly starter and volch as a nightly starter is weak... I would like to think the organization has better options than this if we don't im not nearly as optimistic

I had no issue with Larsson being benched for a game.... I hope pd has the same message for some of the other players as well and just doesn't pick on the 20 yr old kid

 

[tailfins]

What a crazy thread. To paraphrase JK3, the stars are who matter. Where are Zajac, Henrique, and Greene? It's mildly unfair to put Greene into that group, but really, that's a good chunk of our core gone missing. We need Zajac and Henrique to change the game when they're on the ice. Greene, too. Instead, they're mostly invisible.

We need players to step up. The defensive breakdowns have to stop. We need to score when we have the opportunity. We need to dictate the game more. That's either a talent issue or a coaching one. Either it's Lou's issue for not getting the right talent, or Pete's for not bringing out their best.

The marginal difference between Fayne, Larsson and Volchenkov or JJ, Olesz, Loktionov can't be the issue. Unless we're saying someone in that list is a star and we're not playing them, and I don't think anyone believes that.

I'm still in the camp that Pete can bring the players around / get the team to play tighter. I think we saw that in our Cup run year - the team improved through the year - both from talent upgrades and better play.

 

[AfroThunder396]

Clearly I'm in the minority and that's fine. I'm very open to the possibility that I'm wrong. However the production we've seen with him on the ice and the lack of negative production we've seen with him on the ice is nearly neutral. And I'm not even talking about +/-. With Volchenkov on the ice we've let up the least amount of shots, blocked the most shots, and he's among our top 3 D in goals while on ice. That's while not playing any PP minutes and playing the least amount of ES minutes.

Yes he's slow as dirt. Yes he's getting blown by a lot this year. But he's also shown a ton of positives that people ignore because he's slow. He's cleared the zone very well this year which was the biggest knock a lot of you had on him prior to the season.

Greene has been flat out awful. He's bought a lot of real estate on "benefit of the doubt boulevard" (and I agree) but he's been awful. He was bad last night outside of one creative rush that nearly resulted in a breakaway the other way. He was very much involved in the goal that was scored when Clowe went down. He's got 3 Hits in 4 games, 6 BS in 4 games, and is a -1 with a penalty tossed in. Oh and he's produced nothing offensively. Zero.

Greene has been, in my opinion, our worst D. But it's so hard to escape the mindset that A-Train is awful that people will refuse to acknowledge how bad he's been.

Volchenkov has also been on the ice for as many goals for as Greene and more goals AGAINST than any other defenseman.

I really don't understand what hockey games you've been watching if you think that Volchenkov isn't a tremendous detriment while he's on the ice. He was okay as a whole last night, that bad deflection could have happened to anyone, but the first three games he was clearly the worst player on the ice.

Skating in mud, blowing every assignment, getting beat in transition EVERY SINGLE TIME, mindlessly chasing in his own zone, constantly playing the puck instead of the body, mind-numbingly bad decisions with the puck on his stick, constant turnovers, inability to clear the zone....

Saying that Greene has been the worst defenseman on the team isn't a valid or defensible position IMO. It'd be like saying Zajac has been our best offensive player, you just can't justify it.

 

[captainscott]

Clearly I'm in the minority and that's fine. I'm very open to the possibility that I'm wrong. However the production we've seen with him on the ice and the lack of negative production we've seen with him on the ice is nearly neutral. And I'm not even talking about +/-. With Volchenkov on the ice we've let up the least amount of shots, blocked the most shots, and he's among our top 3 D in goals while on ice. That's while not playing any PP minutes and playing the least amount of ES minutes.

Yes he's slow as dirt. Yes he's getting blown by a lot this year. But he's also shown a ton of positives that people ignore because he's slow. He's cleared the zone very well this year which was the biggest knock a lot of you had on him prior to the season.

Greene has been flat out awful. He's bought a lot of real estate on "benefit of the doubt boulevard" (and I agree) but he's been awful. He was bad last night outside of one creative rush that nearly resulted in a breakaway the other way. He was very much involved in the goal that was scored when Clowe went down. He's got 3 Hits in 4 games, 6 BS in 4 games, and is a -1 with a penalty tossed in. Oh and he's produced nothing offensively. Zero.

Greene has been, in my opinion, our worst D. But it's so hard to escape the mindset that A-Train is awful that people will refuse to acknowledge how bad he's been.

maybe greene has "been" our worst dman ( I don't agree) but he "is" our best defenseman he is a damn good #2 or #3 dman but is our #1 that is the situation we are in for now... I think we were all hoping by his third year Larsson would alleviate some fo the pressure off andy greene that has not happened yet.. and fayne,sal,volch,harrold as our other options and zids.....we have a big #1 and#2 gap on this team....help is on the way but maybe not in time for this season with gelinas and Merrill being so young...an injury to andy greene puts us in a giant **** stormm

 

[Benedict Parisechuk]

I think that's an incredible, over-simplification of what the advanced metrics said of the Devils last year. Though every advanced metric has flaws, a combination of a few can help us better understand our team and predict future outcomes. Advanced metrics can help identify problems.

Obviously there's an endless list of intangibles and unquantifiable aspects of the game that will always make it so statistics are imperfect, but to ignore statistics and hide behind your knowledge/eyes is just as ignorant relying solely on statistics. Especially when you refuse to understand the very statistics you insult and bemoan.

I am very open to understanding the lens you view the game with. I want to know why my data disagrees with yours. I want to better understand the garbage we're seeing. So please don't take this as me touting statistics and disregarding your viewpoint.

And by the way, I don't think Volchenkov has been the worst D on the ice in any of the 4 games we've played. And my eyes and the metrics have both supported that. You can call me blind and point out exactly what makes him worse than Greene/Larsson Game 1, Zidlicky/Greene Game 2, Harrold Game 3, or Greene Game 4, and I'll listen.

Then you are watching completely different games from everyone else because he absolutely has been.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Its Time to Fire Pete DeBoer

this can't keep happening. Blown leads in 4/5 games.

 

[JackHughes86]

terrible