The Paul Maurice Pitchfork Thread (MOD Warning Post #1)

[KW]

Because Zito thinks that he's a top-tier coach. Breaking Zito away from that illusion takes a lot of time because if he'd admit after year that "yeah, Mo turned out to be a jackass" would make also Zito look like a jackass as well because he clearly didn't do his homework on this guy. Then Viola might have to consider the possibility of getting rid off Zito too. The quickest way of getting rid off Mo is first firing Zito.

Actually the problem still is, as always has been, it all starts at the very top. The ownership just simply does not give enough of a shit about hockey and the product on ice. The passion to succeed is missing. It’s a team culture problem that’s completely missing, and it all starts at the top.

If the right culture were there, we would not have gone this far with Zito being allowed to make shit decisions, just because he’s had some successes. A truly high quality organization does not settle for mediocrity where the good actions are constantly over-highlighted and the f***-ups are ignored, but instead is one where defects are understood and eliminated.

ETA: Anyone who’s been to/around Tampa knows what I’m talking about. An otherwise shit area and unadmirable people deserve kudos for their passion and commitment. And it’s all coming from the top. They’ve done it right, are continuing to do it right, and I envy them to the point that I wish for my hockey fandom life that I’d been a Bolts fan rather than a Cats fan.

 

[iam76]

Actually the problem still is, as always has been, it all starts at the very top. The ownership just simply does not give enough of a shit about hockey and the product on ice. The passion to succeed is missing. It’s a team culture problem that’s completely missing, and it all starts at the top.

If the right culture were there, we would not have gone this far with Zito being allowed to make shit decisions, just because he’s had some successes. A truly high quality organization does not settle for mediocrity where the good actions are constantly over-highlighted and the f***-ups are ignored, but instead is one where defects are understood and eliminated.

I don't know if I agree with this. isn't this ownership the best we had

 

[KW]

I don't know if I agree with this. isn't this ownership the best we had

Yes it is and it’s still not good enough, OBVIOUSLY.

 

[PSLguy]

Do people really want ownership that meddles in every decision the GM makes?

I can understand giving the GM a dollar amount to work within but involving them in trades, re-signings, etc is, IMO, too much.

 

[KW]

Do people really want ownership that meddles in every decision the GM makes?

I can understand giving the GM a dollar amount to work within but involving them in trades, re-signings, etc is, IMO, too much.

I’m not talking about micromanaging, I’m talking about giving a shit.

 

[Jean Luc Discard]

Actually the problem still is, as always has been, it all starts at the very top. The ownership just simply does not give enough of a shit about hockey and the product on ice. The passion to succeed is missing. It’s a team culture problem that’s completely missing, and it all starts at the top.

If the right culture were there, we would not have gone this far with Zito being allowed to make shit decisions, just because he’s had some successes. A truly high quality organization does not settle for mediocrity where the good actions are constantly over-highlighted and the f***-ups are ignored, but instead is one where defects are understood and eliminated.

Yup, you nailed it. I would also extend the problem with team culture to other elements such as the media who generally doesn't want to highlight the problems and smooching with the Panthers mgmt.

Since Zito is a rookie GM he's allowed to make mistakes but I think that the severity of the mistakes he's made recently is enough for me to think that Zito is no different than the likes of Chiarelli and Benning. Sure, ppl will continue to refer to his handful of successes but what is the point when this guy states in the previous exit meeting presser that "we have to make sure that we're not in this position again a year from now" and now we're seeing rebuilders like the Wings and Sabres playing much better hockey on a consistent basis and going to the playoffs. I guess he held onto his promise...

I'm no Broons/Sweeney fan but listen to him and then compare his argumentation about firing Cassidy and hiring Monty to that of Zito who just keeps spouting "what a great fit, it's a great fit..." with regards to Mo.




Zito just got lucky during his first year or so because it seems that he's incapable of articulating why something works and why something doesn't work. He has to get lucky again in order for this team to improve.

 

[Great8Cam]

Do people really want ownership that meddles in every decision the GM makes?

I can understand giving the GM a dollar amount to work within but involving them in trades, re-signings, etc is, IMO, too much.

Ownership did get involved and it was a disaster. How can anyone forget the Elmer Fudd days

 

[Little Bobby Boo]

Do people really want ownership that meddles in every decision the GM makes?

I can understand giving the GM a dollar amount to work within but involving them in trades, re-signings, etc is, IMO, too much.

It's crazy, honestly. Does no one remember the days of pre-Viola and Cifu? When we were basically what Arizona is now, minus the smart moves to buy picks.

Viola and Cifu aren't perfect, but they are willing to spend to win. Many teams still don't even have this. Ottawa's owner had to literally die for them to start making smart moves.

 

[KW]

Yup, you nailed it. I would also extend the problem with team culture to other elements such as the media who generally doesn't want to highlight the problems and smooching with the Panthers mgmt.

Since Zito is a rookie GM he's allowed to make mistakes but I think that the severity of the mistakes he's made recently is enough for me to think that Zito is no different than the likes of Chiarelli and Benning. Sure, ppl will continue to refer to his handful of successes but what is the point when this guy states in the previous exit meeting presser that "we have to make sure that we're not in this position again a year from now" and now we're seeing rebuilders like the Wings and Sabres playing much better hockey on a consistent basis and going to the playoffs. I guess he held onto his promise...

I'm no Broons/Sweeney fan but listen to him and then compare his argumentation about firing Cassidy and hiring Monty to that of Zito who just keeps spouting "what a great fit, it's a great fit..." with regards to Mo.




Zito just got lucky during his first year or so because it seems that he's incapable of articulating why something works and why something doesn't work. He has to get lucky again in order for this team to improve.

That’s an excellent comparison. Sweeney realized that the messenger needed to change because even though Cassidy is a great coach the players were no longer receiving the message the right way, both the younger and the older players. They all felt they left something on the table when they lost the playoffs series.

On that measure, Zito should have felt the same times a thousand. And fans should agree with that. We don’t have the right culture to understand what’s important. Sweeney would never in a million years have selected Maurice.

 

[pantherbot]

I actually think ownership was a problem, they've started to smarten up, but still aren't exactly sure what to do sometimes and their previous mistakes continue to reverberate through the org and on-ice product.

From what I can tell, they've only really now learned to be more hands off with the day-to-day operations and that they need to invest in all the off-ice infrastructure to build a team (development, facilities, scouting, community engagement, etc.). If we go back to the beginnings, the current ownership was willing to spend directly on the on-ice product, but a lot of the background stuff was missing. From the bits we hear about, sounds like that is changing, but it will take a long long time to reverse the neglect of 20+ years.

Meanwhile, the current product is still feeling the impact. The team is hamstrung by bad contracts and bad roster building because of the computer boys fiasco and then bringing back Tallon, I don't need to go into all the gnarly details again, but you all know what I'm talking about. The prior lack of development also means we don't have many good prospects that worked out.

Now, with Zito, maybe he's a good GM, maybe he's not, it's still hard to tell. Some really good moves, offset by some bad moves recently. But I'm inclined to keep in and let him figure it out so we don't keep changing the leadership. We're all in now for the next few years anyways, so since we're not going into a rebuild, let's see what Zito can do to fix this.

I think if ownership can just focus on building out the rest of the org. and let Zito figure it out, we can probably get back on track. I don't see us developing into a powerhouse like Tampa, we just don't have the contract structures or prospect pipeline to do that, but I think we can be competitive for a long while.

As for Maurice, yes get rid of him please. I defended him early because the problems with the team this year seem larger than him, but he's not part of the solution and frankly I find him annoying. His personnel deployment makes no sense a lot of times and this team doesn't look like they're responding to him. They just come out flat in big games. Maybe it's the players too, but we can't change them all, so change the coach...again.

 

[16Skippy]

What do we need options for? Just bring back Q.

I’m not sure if old man Gary would let us lol

 

[Jean Luc Discard]

I'm inclined to keep in and let him figure it out

If e.g. Denisenko isn't allowed to stay in the roster and let him figure it out then why that same principle isn't applied to Zito? Any successful organization out there doesn't have like a million different rule sets applied whenever an appropriate circumstances appear.

As for Maurice... but he's not part of the solution and frankly I find him annoying.

Maurice is just an extension of Zito. Zito spent an entire year searching for a coach and Mo is the end result of scouting and research project. This is the guy Zito wanted because they see eye-to-eye how this team should be run. Mo isn't the main problem here but rather his employer is.

However, Zito will get smarter about his decision making but I think he's so far behind his peers that the Panthers would be better off without him because Barkov and co. do not 20 years left in the professional career for Zito to finally figure this shit out.

 

[vendetta]

I just cannot fathom having that year and not letting Bruno build on that. And the main reasons he failed allegedly(pp, lack of adjustments) and u somehow think maurice is the answer when he hasnt had an identity in 20 years. Maurice has never been good at anything or excelled in any area. His adjustments are completely non existent. I just can’t fathom how he was the choice. There is literally nothing he’s good at and never was in his 20 year coaching. Like how?

 

[RJMA]

Actually the problem still is, as always has been, it all starts at the very top. The ownership just simply does not give enough of a shit about hockey and the product on ice. The passion to succeed is missing. It’s a team culture problem that’s completely missing, and it all starts at the top.

If the right culture were there, we would not have gone this far with Zito being allowed to make shit decisions, just because he’s had some successes. A truly high quality organization does not settle for mediocrity where the good actions are constantly over-highlighted and the f***-ups are ignored, but instead is one where defects are understood and eliminated.

ETA: Anyone who’s been to/around Tampa knows what I’m talking about. An otherwise shit area and unadmirable people deserve kudos for their passion and commitment. And it’s all coming from the top. They’ve done it right, are continuing to do it right, and I envy them to the point that I wish for my hockey fandom life that I’d been a Bolts fan rather than a Cats fan.

Know who Stan Kroeneke is? Owner of the Avs, 2022 champs. You think he's some super passionate hockey fan?

Here's the real reason, and you're not going to like it: luck.

Let's just look at the draft and how the lottery balls land.

Barkov
Crouse
Huberdeau

Go see which team picked exactly 1 spot in front of each of those players and who was taken in those spots. Ready?

MacKinnon
Rantanen
Landeskog

So the Panthers are theoretically that close to switching positions with Colorado and being Cup champs themselves.

 

[Little Bobby Boo]

I just cannot fathom having that year and not letting Bruno build on that. And the main reasons he failed allegedly(pp, lack of adjustments) and u somehow think maurice is the answer when he hasnt had an identity in 20 years. Maurice has never been good at anything or excelled in any area. His adjustments are completely non existent. I just can’t fathom how he was the choice. There is literally nothing he’s good at and never was in his 20 year coaching. Like how?

I was 100% on board and have been very vocal about letting Bruno go. Not because he's some wizkid guru, but because I didn't believe we would upgrade if we let him go for some "experienced" dinosaur.

PoMo, and so many other coaches are just so meh. I would have taken Sweeny or Montgomery, but why fix what isn't broken?

 

[KW]

Know who Stan Kroeneke is? Owner of the Avs, 2022 champs. You think he's some super passionate hockey fan?

Here's the real reason, and you're not going to like it: luck.

Let's just look at the draft and how the lottery balls land.

Barkov
Crouse
Huberdeau

Go see which team picked exactly 1 spot in front of each of those players and who was taken in those spots. Ready?

MacKinnon
Rantanen
Landeskog

So the Panthers are theoretically that close to switching positions with Colorado and being Cup champs themselves.

That does not convince me because you’re picking a small slice of the whole operation with zero context. I’ve been a Panthers fan, even as a season ticket holder, for over 25 years, and I’ve come to understand some of the key components of how long term hockey success is built. It does all start at the top. The owner needs to hire the right people to run the team and organization and they need to care enough to make wise choices. Sunrise Sports and Entertainment for the longest time didn’t have hockey as a priority, and that culture shows.

In a way, I should thank the Panthers for being such a loser franchise for so long that it’s given a front row seat to understanding what doesn’t work and what’s actually important. Yes, sometimes you get unlucky, and sometimes you get lucky, and luck can very much affect whether you win the Cup in a single game 7. However, getting there isn’t based on luck. It’s based on setting up the right organization with the right system.

The owners selected Zito, but they should care enough and know enough to dig into the backgrounds of whoever Zito wants to hire. Zito has done a good, even a fantastic job with some of the players but he hasn’t done well at all with all player choices, and has especially sucked on the coaching side selections. Panthers are just not set up to do what successful franchises in the NHL do. I keep hoping, but the truth is that my hopes are probably misplaced. It’s not that they couldn’t do it, it’s that they WON’T.

ETA: But I’ll shut up about the owners because this is probably not that interesting to talk about. Zito and Mo and M Staal are much more visible for the flogging they rightly deserve.

 

[Last Rat Standing]

I'm not gonna crap on ownership because they are easily the ones keeping the team in South Florida and enjoy doing so. They could have sold to QuebecCor or any other Canadian conglomerate.

I will place blame on Zito for the Maurice hire and some bad trades made last year. This is basically the 16-17 season all over again. The second time we've seen a complete letdown after the best season in team history.

 

[WaitingForThatCab]

I don't think ownership is perfect, but I can't complain. I'm a realist about the ownership situation, which is: We're lucky to have a group that's willing to spend to the cap and put real money into the coaching staff. This team is not really a profitable venture, and hasn't been for a while.

I'll gladly keep the current ownership group with the way it's handling things now, thank you very much.

 

[vendetta]

Ownership is a massive problem. They have to be behind the scenes with their fingers in the okie. I’ll give them credit for spending money which u have to do to win. But this is twice now where the team shows progression and they take their feet out from under them because they didn’t win instantly. No professional franchise can be run like that. If they kept making playoffs and failing then sure. Imagine Tampa got rid of copper because they lost in round one. Laughable. U need patience and the ability to adjust and progress and tweak for the better. Not completely switch directions after a minor letdown but massive progression . It’s absolutely asinine and clearly comes from the top .

 

[pantherbot]

If e.g. Denisenko isn't allowed to stay in the roster and let him figure it out then why that same principle isn't applied to Zito? Any successful organization out there doesn't have like a million different rule sets applied whenever an appropriate circumstances appear.

Maurice is just an extension of Zito. Zito spent an entire year searching for a coach and Mo is the end result of scouting and research project. This is the guy Zito wanted because they see eye-to-eye how this team should be run. Mo isn't the main problem here but rather his employer is.

However, Zito will get smarter about his decision making but I think he's so far behind his peers that the Panthers would be better off without him because Barkov and co. do not 20 years left in the professional career for Zito to finally figure this shit out.

Well, I'm one of those who wants Deni to get a better shot, so I understand where you're coming from. I'm just looking at the Zito situation and thinking what's probably best for the long-term prospects of this franchise. Which is likely to let Zito figure it out. Most likely bringing in another GM isn't going to magically change things, the roster, contracts and prospect situation take a long time to work through, just like how Zito is still dealing with the previous regime's bad decisions. And we do need at least some stability.

Like you said, Zito will probably get smarter. But maybe it's also because of how I view our team's prospects, which is not to be some dominant perennial contender, but most likely as a tier 2 team that can every so often challenge for the cup if everything goes right in a season. We just don't have all the pieces in place for a dynasty and we probably won't for a long time given our current set-up.

 

[Jean Luc Discard]

Well, I'm one of those who wants Deni to get a better shot, so I understand where you're coming from. I'm just looking at the Zito situation and thinking what's probably best for the long-term prospects of this franchise. Which is likely to let Zito figure it out. Most likely bringing in another GM isn't going to magically change things, the roster, contracts and prospect situation take a long time to work through, just like how Zito is still dealing with the previous regime's bad decisions. And we do need at least some stability.

Like you said, Zito will probably get smarter. But maybe it's also because of how I view our team's prospects, which is not to be some dominant perennial contender, but most likely as a tier 2 team that can every so often challenge for the cup if everything goes right in a season. We just don't have all the pieces in place for a dynasty and we probably won't for a long time given our current set-up.

Zito probably doesn't get fired because the ownership just doesn't want to go another round of GM search and the lack of competent candidates is something that also favors Zito.

In a best case scenario, this team is could be one of those one-and-done teams á la 2019 Blues or 2018 Caps with the exception that they aren't a guaranteed perennial playoff team because the Dolts, Bruins and Leafs will be among the favorites for a playoff spot into the distant future and then you have the Sabres, Sens and Wings coming out of their rebuilds.

If the Cats were a western conf team then they'd be a top-tier team but that's not the reality we live in and Zito's successes and failures will be measured against the teams in this division. In other words, how Zito can stay at the helm when even the smallest mistakes he makes will hurt this team badly consider their playoff aspirations, and two or three mistakes enough for them to be out from the hunt at very early on. Tallon got fired over careless business decisions (contracts) and now we're witnessing the same stuff taking place with Zito (asset mgmt).

 

[BB88]

Know who Stan Kroeneke is? Owner of the Avs, 2022 champs. You think he's some super passionate hockey fan?

Here's the real reason, and you're not going to like it: luck.

Let's just look at the draft and how the lottery balls land.

Barkov
Crouse
Huberdeau

Go see which team picked exactly 1 spot in front of each of those players and who was taken in those spots. Ready?

MacKinnon
Rantanen
Landeskog

So the Panthers are theoretically that close to switching positions with Colorado and being Cup champs themselves.

You know what the difference is/was?

Defense.

Makar
Toews
Byram
Girard
Manson
Johnson.

Both Makar& Toews would be the best blueliners on Floridas defense and Makar by a mile

Florida had the deepest forward lineup I can remember last year.

You can switch those 3 players and the end result is still the same.
They got nothing done before Makar- Toews entered the conversation

Not to mention East is 10x more difficult to compete in than West

 

[SufferingCatFan]

Our problem this year is simple...lack of money.

 

[ScottyMascotty]

 

[BB88]

Everyone had them as a quaranteed playoff team and they are well behind the race right now and have been the entire season.

Anyone even suggesting they’d be in this position in the summer would have been laughed out of the hf.

& Jets have looked miles better after getting rid of Maurice, after underachieving with him for years.