The Out of Town Thread CVIII - Free Agency Edition

[417]

Well considering the Habs had capitulated the season and were in full on tank mode, that list doesn't mean much.

Let's look at the names he inherited that you failed to mention.

Patches Price PK Markov Plex Beaulieu Tinordi, Gally 3rd overall pick. More than enough to build a core of players around wouldn't you say?

Jim Nill basically had Jamie Benn, Lehtonen, Loui Eriksson, Goligoski, Oleksiak, Chiasson, Dillon etc.

I'll take the Habs starting point over what the Stars has everyday of the week.

First, I can't believe we're actually having a conversation where were knocking a GM because he inherited certain players. As though when Bergevin started, he should of started out by waiving Price/Subban/Pacioretty

But to actually answer your question

When I look at both groups of players..>I don't see the big difference

Firstly, I don't even know why you're mentioning Beaulieu & Tinordi, neither is really established in the NHL.

Galchenyuk wasn't part of the organization when he took over either

I don't know what the purpose of this exercise is to be honest

 

[Lebowski]

First, I can't believe we're actually having a conversation where were knocking a GM because he inherited certain players. As though when Bergevin started, he should of started out by waiving Price/Subban/Pacioretty

But to actually answer your question

When I look at both groups of players..>I don't see the big difference

Firstly, I don't even know why you're mentioning Beaulieu & Tinordi, neither is really established in the NHL.

Galchenyuk was part of the organization when he took over either

I don't know what the purpose of this exercise is to be honest

Assuming you meant to say wasn't...

Bergevin inherited a 3rd overall pick and he himself said he'd entrust Timmins with the pick. So really, it's fair to say whatever happens with that 3rd overall pick is something he inherited thanks to his predecessors' ineptitude.

As for the difference Nill and Bergevin had to work with to build their team, I hope you're kidding.

 

[TopTenPlayz]

Not sure what is so LOL. My point was it's too early to call him a great GM (or a nad one for that matter), and I don't see how that is not an accurate statement.

The Seguin deal was an all time steal, but I'm not sold on his other moves. For a team that is in full rebuild, acquiring declining assets on expensive contracts for picks and prospects may not be the path to long term success. Can we agree that a 62 point, one dimensional, 7.5MM Spezza isn't a huge win for the GM?

Sharp, Hemsky and Spezza are all short term fixes and their farm doesn't appear to be very deep with prospects. For a team that's going for it now, missing the playoffs is not a great result.

And I don't have to eat crow if I'm wrong because I'm not making any predictions, just stating that the jury is still out on what that Stars team will do.

Spezza was acquired for Ludwig Karlsson, Nick Paul, Alex Guptill, Alex Chiasson and a 2nd round pick. I don't care if Spezza is one dimensional and whatnot, it's a big win for Dallas.

Sharp was acquired for Daley, Garbutt; basically a #4 or #5 defenceman and a 4th line player. Again, a big win for Dallas.

No need to hate on Nill just because he's proactive as opposed to our GM

 

[hototogisu]

Thing is though....

You can only do so much as a GM to get help to your team. How they perform is out of your hands sometimes unless you have a glaring need.

Some great teams on paper always fell short. Like the Sharks.

Well as I said before, I don't think the Stars are a great team on paper either once you get past their forward corps. So yeah. Maybe their plan is to outscore teams all the way to the Cup, I dunno. Guess we'll see how it plays out for them.

 

[Sterling Archer]

What does Carey Price have to do with the fact that for all his Substantial Improvements, the Stars are more or less the same team they were before Nill took over, both in terms of their final position in their standards and their GF/GA?

I'm not talking about Nill vs. Bergevin. I'm talking about Nill on his own merits as the Stars' GM.

I don't know how you can't say that Nill on his own merits has done a great job so far. Results are rarely instant in hockey but look at the roster now vs. the roster he inherited and it's clearly a better team.

The Stars were lacking in literally every single category of depth. He's since added depth at centre which was an immediate need and damn difficult to do in today's NHL. then he worked on wing, defense and goaltending. He's always adding pieces they are lacking to make them a better team. It may not happen in one fell swoop but he's always working on it.

Not every move will be a winner, in fact every good GMs has made bad choices at one time or another and I've yet to meet any infallible human being. But I'm not sure what more you can ask from a GM than what Nill has done so far for the Stars. Time will tell but if they can manage to get a couple of more pieces and stay healthy, they can be a very dangerous team to play against. Seguin and Benn were sick together when healthy. By adding Sharp and Oduya he's only made them that much better and given them that much ore depth on the top 2 lines and on D.

 

[hototogisu]

He has certainly made a lot of moves that look great on paper, but none of it means anything until something is different on the ice. If this is the year that happens, great, but I look at a defense that was bad last year and only appears to have gotten worse, and a goaltending situation that is dicey at best, and I'm wondering what's supposed to be different this year.

The Leafs and the Flyers are two teams who routinely made big glitzy moves in the off-season and it never lead to anything on the ice (with the exception of 1 finals run for the Flyers that was bookended with average-ness). What's to say the Stars are any different? I'll wait for the results to come before clapping Nill on the back too hard, because if the results aren't there it doesn't matter how cheaply he landed Seguin or Spezza or whoever.

 

[Sterling Archer]

First, I can't believe we're actually having a conversation where were knocking a GM because he inherited certain players. As though when Bergevin started, he should of started out by waiving Price/Subban/Pacioretty

But to actually answer your question

When I look at both groups of players..>I don't see the big difference

Firstly, I don't even know why you're mentioning Beaulieu & Tinordi, neither is really established in the NHL.

Galchenyuk wasn't part of the organization when he took over either

I don't know what the purpose of this exercise is to be honest

That's your first problem. You think the roster they inherited were similar from a talent level.They weren't and it wasn't even close.

Secondly, I'm not criticising Bergevin for the roster he inherited. I'm saying he hasn't done nearly enough with it to make the Habs a better team. Whereas Nill started off with substantially less and has added some major pieces to address the Stars shortcomings, we've had the same ones since Bergevin took over and haven't done anything to make it better and by not moving Chucky to centre, I'd say we've got even worse.

We're still not in camp yet so I'm reserving judgment until then. But if we have the same roster today as we do to start the season, I'll have lost a lot of faith in Bergevin.

 

[Agalloch]

Jim Nill is overrated like Holmgren was. Dallas are not even a playoff team yet.

Price, Subban, Pacioretty all blossomed under Bergevin's regime. Maybe it would have been the case under Gauthier but I don't think so.

 

[Sterling Archer]

He has certainly made a lot of moves that look great on paper, but none of it means anything until something is different on the ice. If this is the year that happens, great, but I look at a defense that was bad last year and only appears to have gotten worse, and a goaltending situation that is dicey at best, and I'm wondering what's supposed to be different this year.

The Leafs and the Flyers are two teams who routinely made big glitzy moves in the off-season and it never lead to anything on the ice (with the exception of 1 finals run for the Flyers that was bookended with average-ness). What's to say the Stars are any different? I'll wait for the results to come before clapping Nill on the back too hard, because if the results aren't there it doesn't matter how cheaply he landed Seguin or Spezza or whoever.

Difference is that when the Leafs or Holmgren made a move, everyone thought they were horrible (outside of Toronto based media of course).

Time will tell but at least the guy is doing something to improve his team and getting quality pieces to make the Stars a more desired destination.

 

[Cookie007]

Put me in as one of those that wished Bergie aka BargainBin would've went after Kessel, JVR, Semin, Oshie, Sharp this summer. Doesn't look like that's happening as he seems happy to enter the season with Gallagher, Chucky, Kassian and MaxPac.

But a question to those that use the "inherited players" as a reason to complain about Bergevin. Do you consider Stan Bowman as a proactive/good GM? Because as far as I remember, he "inherited" Kane, Toews, Keith, Seabrook and Crawford. His big "blockbuster" trade were trading away Ladd and Byfulien and now Sharp and Saad.

Or Yzerman? I think he also "inherited" Stamkos, St Louis (in which he turn to Callahan :S), and the 2nd overall pick (similar to Chucky) and selected Hedman. I do give Yzerman props for ripping of those Sens when he got Bishop for Cory Conacher. But no one thought Bishop would be this good (similar deals BargainBin trying to pull and swing for the HR with Weise and now Kassian)

 

[Apoplectic Habs Fan]

Jim Nill is overrated like Holmgren was. Dallas are not even a playoff team yet.

Price, Subban, Pacioretty all blossomed under Bergevin's regime. Maybe it would have been the case under Gauthier but I don't think so.

Subban and pacioretty were already blossoming as was Price. Only Price was a bit more inconsistent like most young goalie. Ridiculous to think they wouldnt have blossomed

 

[Whitesnake]

Jim Nill is overrated like Holmgren was. Dallas are not even a playoff team yet.

Price, Subban, Pacioretty all blossomed under Bergevin's regime. Maybe it would have been the case under Gauthier but I don't think so.

You don't think so? Why? There were no reasons to believe prior to Bergevin that they would become those guys? Pacioretty is blossoming 'cause Bergevin let him have DD as his C? Price is blossoming 'cause Bergevin ice an average team that makes Price see tons of quality shots? Subban is blossoming because Therrien gave him a hard time and it was the way to go? Why do you not think so? This is so subjective, that the main thing you need to do to evaluate a GM is see what he was able to bring to add to a group already there. In 3 full years and in his 4th year, so far....of importance, he has Petry. Enough with the Weaver and Gonchar were so crucial bla-bla-bla....No. They weren't. They played a role, like TONS of players from TONS of different teams do. But those guys aren't the one who are making you evolve as a team. AS OF NOW, Petry is the one. And yet....we are also just projecting at this point...he hasn't played a full season with us. As of now, Bergevin has demonstrated that he could be great at signing his own guys to great contract. Though there are exceptions to that, DD and Emelin, usually he is great. But trades and UFA's....his wisdom remains to be seen. All great to get a Vanek for half of a season. But clealry it wasn't enough, and it wasn't longer term.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Put me in as one of those that wished Bergie aka BargainBin would've went after Kessel, JVR, Semin, Oshie, Sharp this summer. Doesn't look like that's happening as he seems happy to enter the season with Gallagher, Chucky, Kassian and MaxPac.

But a question to those that use the "inherited players" as a reason to complain about Bergevin. Do you consider Stan Bowman as a proactive/good GM? Because as far as I remember, he "inherited" Kane, Toews, Keith, Seabrook and Crawford. His big "blockbuster" trade were trading away Ladd and Byfulien and now Sharp and Saad.

Or Yzerman? I think he also "inherited" Stamkos, St Louis (in which he turn to Callahan :S), and the 2nd overall pick (similar to Chucky) and selected Hedman. I do give Yzerman props for ripping of those Sens when he got Bishop for Cory Conacher. But no one thought Bishop would be this good (similar deals BargainBin trying to pull and swing for the HR with Weise and now Kassian)

i do consider both Bowman and Yzerman good GM's even though they inherited good pieces.

Bowman not at first as Tallon was the guy who built the core for the hawks. That being said, Bowman's moves AFTER he had to manage the cap and be able to win again makes me think he did a great job. He lost a bunch of useful players and managed to replace them with good, young, cheap players and keep up their level of play. Still think Tallon deserves credit for thier first Cup though.

Yzerman added a lot of very good young players to his core and made them a contender. Look at the triplets, Bishop etc. He traded older players like MSL and bought out Vinny etc to make room and replace them with quality. Also, look at his free agent signings and again, he addressed the needs of his team and didn't rely on Stamkos, Bishop or Hedman to carry the team.

Both guys get a big pat on the back from me, anyways.

 

[Agalloch]

You don't think so? Why? There were no reasons to believe prior to Bergevin that they would become those guys? Pacioretty is blossoming 'cause Bergevin let him have DD as his C? Price is blossoming 'cause Bergevin ice an average team that makes Price see tons of quality shots? Subban is blossoming because Therrien gave him a hard time and it was the way to go? Why do you not think so?

You're right, I have nothing to support my 'feeling' about that. I still prefer Bergevin than Gauthier.

I can understand why some don't like slow approach Bergevin vs Nill, but Nill is overrated and if Dallas become good, it will not be for long. Bergevin said when he arrived that he wanted to create a good team for a long time. He wants young players/young core.

 

[417]

Assuming you meant to say wasn't...

Bergevin inherited a 3rd overall pick and he himself said he'd entrust Timmins with the pick. So really, it's fair to say whatever happens with that 3rd overall pick is something he inherited thanks to his predecessors' ineptitude.

As for the difference Nill and Bergevin had to work with to build their team, I hope you're kidding.

You're missing the point...are we faulting Bergevin because he inherited Price, Subban, Pacioretty and Plekanec?

This whole argument is ridiculous to be hoenst

He inherited them and all his teams have done since is be one of the most successful teams, yes regular season not cups I get that, in the NHL under his tenure.

This is just reaching to try and dump on Bergevin...because there was a SINGLE Habs fan on this planet who supported the previous regime under Gauthier

To see everyone now turn around and show support for what Gauthier did is just so typical of this fanbase

No matter who is in charge of this team, there will always be a large segment of it who thinks they know better

 

[Lebowski]

You're right, I have nothing to support my 'feeling' about that. I still prefer Bergevin than Gauthier.

I can understand why some don't like slow approach Bergevin vs Nill, but Nill is overrated and if Dallas become good, it will not be for long. Bergevin said when he arrived that he wanted to create a good team for a long time. He wants young players/young core.

How can Nill be "overrated" because Dallas isn't a good team "yet"? That's the whole point of discussing the core a GM inherited, because had Nill inherited a half decent core, his team would be a lot more successful.

All of Bergevin's success lays on players that were brought into the fold by other GMs. Nill had a much weaker basis to work with, but has steadily and massively improved it since then. His team isn't perfect yet, obviously, but it's a lot better than it was when he first took over.

 

[SergeConstantin74]

Some people actually forgets Twitter is a social media and not private at all.

#JamieBenn

 

[Rosso Scuderia]

Jim Nill is overrated like Holmgren was. Dallas are not even a playoff team yet.

Price, Subban, Pacioretty all blossomed under Bergevin's regime. Maybe it would have been the case under Gauthier but I don't think so.

Price blossomed under Waite.

Subban and Pacioretty blossemed because of age and experience.

IMO.

 

[417]

That's your first problem. You think the roster they inherited were similar from a talent level.They weren't and it wasn't even close.
Secondly, I'm not criticising Bergevin for the roster he inherited. I'm saying he hasn't done nearly enough with it to make the Habs a better team. Whereas Nill started off with substantially less and has added some major pieces to address the Stars shortcomings, we've had the same ones since Bergevin took over and haven't done anything to make it better and by not moving Chucky to centre, I'd say we've got even worse.

We're still not in camp yet so I'm reserving judgment until then. But if we have the same roster today as we do to start the season, I'll have lost a lot of faith in Bergevin.

I'll repeat what I said earlier...here are some of the names on the Habs roster when Marc Bergevin took over in May 2012

Defense - Tomas Kaberle, Yannick Weber, Raphael Diaz, Chris Campoli, Frédéric St-Denis

Forwards - Scott Gomez, Mathieu Darche, Louis Leblanc, Rene Bourque, Petteri Nokelainen, Aaron Palushaj, Mike Blunden, Blake Geoffrion, Gabriel Dumont, Andreas Engqvist

Now I realize I handpicked the worse names on there, but just the fact that he took over a team that had some of those names kind of shows you that he didn't exactly inherit a pot of gold

If you want to say the Habs roster was better, that's fine...I think the difference is negligible personally, and it's only because the Habs have Carey Price who happens to be the best player in the NHL.

But go back to 2012...was Carey Price reputation as stellar as it is today??? Many of you were ready to run Carey Price out of town back then, but since Stephane Waite took over, Carey Price has reached another level

hmmm...I can't put my finger on who hired Stéphane Waite...can you help me out?

 

[Jeffrey]

Bergevin biggest fail has been the center position.

When he first arrived 4 years ago the most glaring weaknesses of the habs was the center position and toughness.. while he addressed the toughness part and when he got Galchenyuk it also looked like a fixed the center issues. Now 4 years later. Galchenyuk is not a center yet and we have Desharnais as our #1 center and an aging Plekanec. Eller never took off and we have no prospect that can fill that void.

 

[Agalloch]

How can Nill be "overrated" because Dallas isn't a good team "yet"? That's the whole point of discussing the core a GM inherited, because had Nill inherited a half decent core, his team would be a lot more successful.

All of Bergevin's success lays on players that were brought into the fold by other GMs. Nill had a much weaker basis to work with, but has steadily and massively improved it since then. His team isn't perfect yet, obviously, but it's a lot better than it was when he first took over.

They will be good when their young defensemen will be ready and not because of the trades he made. Spezza/Sharp/Oduya are past their prime.

His young players is the future and were there when he arrived like Bergevin did here. So it's the same. The only good trade was with Seguin and Boston would have never traded him to us. Never.

 

[Lebowski]

You're missing the point...are we faulting Bergevin because he inherited Price, Subban, Pacioretty and Plekanec?

I don't see anyone "faulting" him for it. But I sure as hell hope no one is crediting him for it, and that's the question at hand here.

This is just reaching to try and dump on Bergevin...because there was a SINGLE Habs fan on this planet who supported the previous regime under Gauthier

To see everyone now turn around and show support for what Gauthier did is just so typical of this fanbase

No matter who is in charge of this team, there will always be a large segment of it who thinks they know better

No one is just reaching to dump on Bergevin nor is anyone really showing support for Gauthier or Gainey. But saying we can count on our core, the core responsible for keeping this team afloat, is thanks to the drafting under Gainey's and Gauthier's tenure is simply stating the obvious.

You look at what remains of Bergevin's various moves after 3 years and that's what he managed to add to the already existing core: Dale Weise, Jeff Petry, Zach Kassian, Devante Smith-Pelley, Tom Gilbert, Torrey Mitchell, Brian Flynn.

That's literally it.

 

[Lebowski]

They will be good when their young defensemen will be ready and not because of the trades he made. Spezza/Sharp/Oduya are past their prime.

His young players is the future and were there when he arrived like Bergevin did here. So it's the same. The only good trade was with Seguin and Boston would have never traded him to us. Never.

No, it's not the same at all. Seguin and Spezza are two #1 centers he traded for and weren't part of his core when he took over. Sharp and Oduya weren't there either, and give me a break with the "past their prime". As if we wouldn't welcome them with open arms on this team.

 

[417]

I don't see anyone "faulting" him for it. But I sure as hell hope no one is crediting him for it, and that's the question at hand here.



No one is just reaching to dump on Bergevin nor is anyone really showing support for Gauthier or Gainey. But saying we can count on our core, the core responsible for keeping this team afloat, is thanks to the drafting under Gainey's and Gauthier's tenure is simply stating the obvious.

You look at what remains of Bergevin's various moves after 3 years and that's what he managed to add to the already existing core: Dale Weise, Jeff Petry, Zach Kassian, Devante Smith-Pelley, Tom Gilbert, Torrey Mitchell, Brian Flynn.

That's literally it.

You're right...perhaps he should of started off his tenure by waiving everyone and starting from scratch

That way he could really put his stamp on the team.

 

[Agalloch]

No, it's not the same at all. Seguin and Spezza are two #1 centers he traded for and weren't part of his core when he took over. Sharp and Oduya weren't there either, and give me a break with the "past their prime". As if we wouldn't welcome them with open arms on this team.

Like it or not, this is not the way Bergevin operates. It seems. I'm not impressed with Dallas and they will miss the playoffs next year again.