The Out of Town Thread CVIII - Free Agency Edition

[417]

Again, it's not just about those two players in particular. It's that Jim Nill landed both after realising his need at centre. He isn't the only GM of a team that wanted them. Even with limited destinations there was still multiple options. He managed to get them. How many times have we heard the Habs were in on this player or that player etc and he ended up going to another team.

You can make all the excuses you won't but at the end of the day results count. We still have David ****ing Desharnais as a top 2 centre. We're not going anywhere as long as we're this weak down the middle. At least Nill is building a nice little team for himself. Meanwhile, Bergevin and MT are riding the coat tails of their predecessors with Price, PK and Patches leading the way for the Habs.

He is? Could of fooled me...is it what? the 3rd summer in a row where Nill 'win's the offseason?

Maybe 3rd time is a charm...

But IMO, that Stars roster is flawed

 

[Wats]

He is? Could of fooled me...is it what? the 3rd summer in a row where Nill 'win's the offseason?

Maybe 3rd time is a charm...

But IMO, that Stars roster is flawed

The roster he inherited didn't have a star D, top pairing D, and a star goalie. Bergevin just had to avoid messing those pieces up (Gauthier showed can be hard). Nonetheless, he's yet to actually add a significant piece to core. Petry is the first but would seem too obvious for a forward version to be added as well.

The team barely had much up front aside from Benn:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0002332013.html

 

[hototogisu]

You mean...like the Habs?

Except for the fact that it's been proven the Habs would have at least been a playoff team this year with average goalie numbers, and they were in the previous 2 seasons under Bergevin when Price wasn't a Vezina/Hart juggernaut. But otherwise yeah spot on.

Why is this so hard to understand that Dallas had holes everywhere? It wasn't like Montreal where everything was set and an upgrade needed to be made in the top 6. Nill came into this situation needing to improve scoring, D and goaltending. He got scoring done. D is clearly in progress and goalie should be next. Nill is aggressive so I know it will be addressed. Look at the top GMs in the league. They are aggressive and fill needs rather quickly. Bergie had one area to fix and he has failed countless times to do just that....while getting pass after pass by Price channeling the spirit of Jacques Plante every game.

So what you are saying is that the two most important positions in hockey still need to be addressed but that's okay, you're confident it'll happen because "Nill is aggressive".

Also FYI Dallas' GF was ranked 12th before Nill took over and their GA 25th. 2 years after Nill took over they're ranked 2nd and 27th respectively. It's almost as if he addressed something that didn't really need fixing and made the other thing worse. I only wish Bergevin had that kind of savvy so you'd be singing his praises now too.

 

[Miller Time]

Something Nill should probably check into



You guys actually think this is a team in good shape? Yeah their offense is sexy and they'll score a ton of goals - just like they did last year. But unless they get a miracle year out of their goalies (and I hope they do, considering they're investing like $9m in them)...they're not going anywhere.

I don't see eithe group (D or G) as much worse than middle-of-the-pack

They add sharp & nikushkin (injured last year), which should push their fwd group firmly on not the elite-tier league-wide.

Injuries, coaching & chemistry all play into it, but in paper they are considerably improved over last year.

 

[hototogisu]

I don't see eithe group (D or G) as much worse than middle-of-the-pack.

IMO their D is among the worst in the league, easily.

Their goalies are the wildcard. Lehtonen can be a top ten goalie or one of the worst in the league. Niemi's highs are not as high but he's more consistently average. But both are far from safe bets.

Nill is like the new Holmgren, making some big splash every offseason while failing to address any real needs and people eat it up anyway because "at least he's doing something!". Maybe Nill, like Holmgren, will fluke his way into a finals appearance one year.

 

[Sterling Archer]

He is? Could of fooled me...is it what? the 3rd summer in a row where Nill 'win's the offseason?

Maybe 3rd time is a charm...

But IMO, that Stars roster is flawed

The roster he inherited didn't have a star D, top pairing D, and a star goalie. Bergevin just had to avoid messing those pieces up (Gauthier showed can be hard). Nonetheless, he's yet to actually add a significant piece to core. Petry is the first but would seem too obvious for a forward version to be added as well.

The team barely had much up front aside from Benn:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0002332013.html

This.

Nill started with a substantially weaker team than Bergevin as I stated in previous posts. Are the Stars better than the Habs at this point? Probably not but if they had Price and/or PK and I dare say they'd be a much better team than the Habs are right now.

So again, unlike Bergevin, Nill started with Benn as the only star player on his team and has made it substantially better. Imagine if Bergevin started with just Patches and no 3rd overall pick and imagine where the habs would be right now.

 

[sampollock]

Dallas keeps adding, and MB is golfing.....

oh ya we have DD and Plec , as #1 and #2, that will make the pp the same as last year.

love the petry signing, but.............

 

[The Great Weal]

Dallas keeps adding, and MB is golfing.....

oh ya we have DD and Plec , as #1 and #2, that will make the pp the same as last year.

love the petry signing, but.............

You forgot to mention that Dallas 's d-core is trash and ours is good

 

[Sterling Archer]

You forgot to mention that Dallas 's d-core is trash and ours is good

Nill didn't inherit PK and Markov either. What would our D without those two guys?

Beau Petry
Tinner Gilbert
XXX Pateryn

Yikes!

 

[Vi Nc E x13x]

Nill didn't inherit PK and Markov either. What would our D without those two guys?

Beau Petry
Tinner Gilbert
XXX Pateryn

Yikes!

He inherited

Markov Subban
Diaz Gorges
Emelin Kaberle ..... yikes

 

[Sterling Archer]

He inherited

Markov Subban
Diaz Gorges
Emelin Kaberle ..... yikes

Actually, he inherited:

Markov PK
Emelin Beau
Tinner Pateryn

Gilbert and Petry the only defensemen on the roster he didn't inherit. So yeah, maybe a little better than what Nill had to work with.

 

[Adriatic]

Dallas could win the cup with Price.

Well that's not saying much is it? About 20 other teams can win a cup with Price in nets. Fact is they don't have Price and to acquire Price they would have to give up half their offense.

 

[japhi]

LMAO. Nill had a lot of work to do in Dallas. Anyone that expects immediate results from a team that needs to be rebuilt from the ground up is out to lunch...

Nill is making moves for the team to contend for many years to come in the future. I can't wait to see the backtracking if Dallas improves and the Habs falter.

Not sure what is so LOL. My point was it's too early to call him a great GM (or a nad one for that matter), and I don't see how that is not an accurate statement.

The Seguin deal was an all time steal, but I'm not sold on his other moves. For a team that is in full rebuild, acquiring declining assets on expensive contracts for picks and prospects may not be the path to long term success. Can we agree that a 62 point, one dimensional, 7.5MM Spezza isn't a huge win for the GM?

Sharp, Hemsky and Spezza are all short term fixes and their farm doesn't appear to be very deep with prospects. For a team that's going for it now, missing the playoffs is not a great result.

And I don't have to eat crow if I'm wrong because I'm not making any predictions, just stating that the jury is still out on what that Stars team will do.

 

[417]

This.

Nill started with a substantially weaker team than Bergevin as I stated in previous posts. Are the Stars better than the Habs at this point? Probably not but if they had Price and/or PK and I dare say they'd be a much better team than the Habs are right now.

So again, unlike Bergevin, Nill started with Benn as the only star player on his team and has made it substantially better. Imagine if Bergevin started with just Patches and no 3rd overall pick and imagine where the habs would be right now.

Here are some of the names Bergevin had on the roster when he took over in May of 2012

Defense - Tomas Kaberle, Yannick Weber, Raphael Diaz, Chris Campoli, Frédéric St-Denis

Forwards - Scott Gomez, Mathieu Darche, Louis Leblanc, Rene Bourque, Petteri Nokelainen, Aaron Palushaj, Mike Blunden, Blake Geoffrion, Gabriel Dumont, Andreas Engqvist.

 

[Richiebottles]

Not sure what is so LOL. My point was it's too early to call him a great GM (or a nad one for that matter), and I don't see how that is not an accurate statement.

The Seguin deal was an all time steal, but I'm not sold on his other moves. For a team that is in full rebuild, acquiring declining assets on expensive contracts for picks and prospects may not be the path to long term success. Can we agree that a 62 point, one dimensional, 7.5MM Spezza isn't a huge win for the GM?

Sharp, Hemsky and Spezza are all short term fixes and their farm doesn't appear to be very deep with prospects. For a team that's going for it now, missing the playoffs is not a great result.

And I don't have to eat crow if I'm wrong because I'm not making any predictions, just stating that the jury is still out on what that Stars team will do.

That ain't got anything to do with the GM though. The team's success is now on the back of the coaches and players.

 

[japhi]

You mean...like the Habs?

Look at the top GMs in the league. They are aggressive and fill needs rather quickly. Bergie had one area to fix and he has failed countless times to do just that....while getting pass after pass by Price channeling the spirit of Jacques Plante every game.

The top GM's and teams in the league - think Chicago or Tampa - built their teams by tanking for close to a decade. The top teams built their teams almost exclusively through the draft, and in most cases top 5 picks. Tell me again which agressive moves that Yzerman made? His two best players were #1 overall picks, his second best forward was picked up as an unsigned FA and his goalie bounced from St Lou to Ottawa and drew nothing better than a 2nd round pick.

Is Stan Bowman a genius because Tallon tanked for a decade and inherited Toews, Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Keith and Seabrook? Chicago's big move was the Hossa pre CBA deal, a deal that couldn't happen today. Almost all of their talent was acquired organically. There is nothing aggressive about Bowmans style and he has an abundance of riches to work with.

Sather has been making agressive moves for 2 decades and it's yielded exactly 0 cups.

Philly has been making bold moves forever and they have one ECF.

Burke was as agressive as they come in TO, he set that team back a decade.

The only team I can think of that really upgraded their lineup - and won - via bold moves was LA. And even in their case their core - Doughty, Quick and Kopitar were all acquired through leans years and the draft and the players brought in cost them considerable assets. They haven't drafted in the first round in three years and just paid a fortune for Lucic.

 

[Ezpz]

Here are some of the names Bergevin had on the roster when he took over in May of 2012

Defense - Tomas Kaberle, Yannick Weber, Raphael Diaz, Chris Campoli, Frédéric St-Denis

Forwards - Scott Gomez, Mathieu Darche, Louis Leblanc, Rene Bourque, Petteri Nokelainen, Aaron Palushaj, Mike Blunden, Blake Geoffrion, Gabriel Dumont, Andreas Engqvist.

I mean realistically guys like Gallagher, Beaulieu etc were already in the prospect pool. He did absolutely nothing to get Galchenyuk either. Even DLR was picked up by a Gauthier pick. Aside from the Gallys the forward core really isn't much better for the rest of the 10 spots. Everything good about our defense aside from Petry weren't Bergevin moves either. The biggest thing Bergevin did differently was have a healthy Markov and ice an actual fourth line.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Here are some of the names Bergevin had on the roster when he took over in May of 2012

Defense - Tomas Kaberle, Yannick Weber, Raphael Diaz, Chris Campoli, Frédéric St-Denis

Forwards - Scott Gomez, Mathieu Darche, Louis Leblanc, Rene Bourque, Petteri Nokelainen, Aaron Palushaj, Mike Blunden, Blake Geoffrion, Gabriel Dumont, Andreas Engqvist.

Well considering the Habs had capitulated the season and were in full on tank mode, that list doesn't mean much.

Let's look at the names he inherited that you failed to mention.

Patches Price PK Markov Plex Beaulieu Tinordi, Gally 3rd overall pick. More than enough to build a core of players around wouldn't you say?

Jim Nill basically had Jamie Benn, Lehtonen, Loui Eriksson, Goligoski, Oleksiak, Chiasson, Dillon etc.

I'll take the Habs starting point over what the Stars has everyday of the week.

 

[hototogisu]

This.

Nill started with a substantially weaker team than Bergevin as I stated in previous posts. Are the Stars better than the Habs at this point? Probably not but if they had Price and/or PK and I dare say they'd be a much better team than the Habs are right now.

So again, unlike Bergevin, Nill started with Benn as the only star player on his team and has made it substantially better. Imagine if Bergevin started with just Patches and no 3rd overall pick and imagine where the habs would be right now.

Dallas the year before Nill took over: 21st overall
Dallas 2 years after Nill: 19th overall

Substantially better.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Dallas the year before Nill took over: 21st overall
Dallas 2 years after Nill: 19th overall

Substantially better.

Are you serious? Again, look at what Nill started with and look at what Bergevin started with.

I'm sure having Carey Price had little to nothing to do with Montreal's success this past year.

 

[ECWHSWI]

The top GM's and teams in the league - think Chicago or Tampa - built their teams by tanking for close to a decade. The top teams built their teams almost exclusively through the draft, and in most cases top 5 picks. Tell me again which agressive moves that Yzerman made? His two best players were #1 overall picks, his second best forward was picked up as an unsigned FA and his goalie bounced from St Lou to Ottawa and drew nothing better than a 2nd round pick.

Is Stan Bowman a genius because Tallon tanked for a decade and inherited Toews, Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Keith and Seabrook? Chicago's big move was the Hossa pre CBA deal, a deal that couldn't happen today. Almost all of their talent was acquired organically. There is nothing aggressive about Bowmans style and he has an abundance of riches to work with.

Sather has been making agressive moves for 2 decades and it's yielded exactly 0 cups.

Philly has been making bold moves forever and they have one ECF.

Burke was as agressive as they come in TO, he set that team back a decade.

The only team I can think of that really upgraded their lineup - and won - via bold moves was LA. And even in their case their core - Doughty, Quick and Kopitar were all acquired through leans years and the draft and the players brought in cost them considerable assets. They haven't drafted in the first round in three years and just paid a fortune for Lucic.

Hossa was signed as a UFA
Sharp was acquired via trade

nothing to do with tanking...

 

[hototogisu]

Are you serious? Again, look at what Nill started with and look at what Bergevin started with.

I'm sure having Carey Price had little to nothing to do with Montreal's success this past year.

What does Carey Price have to do with the fact that for all his Substantial Improvements, the Stars are more or less the same team they were before Nill took over, both in terms of their final position in their standards and their GF/GA?

I'm not talking about Nill vs. Bergevin. I'm talking about Nill on his own merits as the Stars' GM.

 

[Lebowski]

Not undeserving at all if playoffs are factored in.

What did he did in the playoffs that would even put him ahead of Duncan Keith or Patrick Kane?

Hell, if you're willing to weigh the playoffs THAT much, than it should've been Tyler Johnson. Even despite all that, Price was just far ahead of Toews overall. Ovechkin as well.

 

[Richiebottles]

What does Carey Price have to do with the fact that for all his Substantial Improvements, the Stars are more or less the same team they were before Nill took over, both in terms of their final position in their standards and their GF/GA?

I'm not talking about Nill vs. Bergevin. I'm talking about Nill on his own merits as the Stars' GM.

Thing is though....

You can only do so much as a GM to get help to your team. How they perform is out of your hands sometimes unless you have a glaring need.

Some great teams on paper always fell short. Like the Sharks.

 

[Adriatic]

Not sure what is so LOL. My point was it's too early to call him a great GM (or a nad one for that matter), and I don't see how that is not an accurate statement.

The Seguin deal was an all time steal, but I'm not sold on his other moves. For a team that is in full rebuild, acquiring declining assets on expensive contracts for picks and prospects may not be the path to long term success. Can we agree that a 62 point, one dimensional, 7.5MM Spezza isn't a huge win for the GM?

Sharp, Hemsky and Spezza are all short term fixes and their farm doesn't appear to be very deep with prospects. For a team that's going for it now, missing the playoffs is not a great result.

And I don't have to eat crow if I'm wrong because I'm not making any predictions, just stating that the jury is still out on what that Stars team will do.

Well said. Those moves look good on paper but we still don't know how it will look like on the ice. A declining Spezza at 7.5mm for another 4 years is gonna hurt. Hemsly at 4mm is bad, 11 goals, always injured, one dimensional. Sharp is a big contract too, on the decline. Don't know how good those moves are to build a foundation for the future. They will be improved for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if they miss the playoffs again with that defense and goaltending.