Confirmed with Link: The Ottawa Senators Sale - PART 2

[Masked]

It's not moving the goalposts. If you do a $400M refurb of your existing building, you're ostensibly getting a new building. It's like saying just because you didn't knock down the house you bought but renovated it entirely from top to bottom that you're not in a new house. Kind of a weird semantics argument to make. If the new owners said: "we're not moving but we're committing to a comprehensive $300M renovation of the CTC to be completed in 2 years", what would we consider that? Because to me, a $300M renovation where you change the layout, improve the flow, add new features, etc. would be a new building in my eyes.

Once again you're being disingenuous. There's one rink on your list (not counting MSG and KeyArena because those are clearly new arenas) that had $400M spent on renovations.

If you think there's no difference between a new rink and a renovated rink, why didn't they just renovate beloved rinks like Maple Leaf Gardens, The Forum, the Boston Garden, etc instead of replacing them with new rinks?

assennayo

 

[Beech]

NCC has committed to about 2.7 hectares in the MOU. They have recently said since, Bettman and others have said the area is too small, NCC has come out and said they’d be open to discussing some additional land, but no commitment.
The original plan Rendezvous, had plans for 500 parking spots, so enough for players, staff and game day employees, that’s it.

again.. why have things stalled!!!!!

If you are a perspective owner of the team and thus a front runner for the development project.. you need BIG.. I mean f***ing big.... you need the project to be "real-estate" with a hockey team thrown in.. not the other way around.

Foxborough... Go visit. It is massive.. tons of high cost lease space. And tons of surrounding parking. All controlled/owned by Robert Kraft. It is busy 12 months a year. They play a mere 10 games a year.. The principle usage is: other.

Go now,, no Football, the place is packed. Movie theatres, restaurants, shops...

Go watch some event there. From 10 KM out, the parking lots start.... last chance at $25 parking (circa 2014).

what drove landsdown... underground parking, retail space, condos.... The redblacks and their 10 dates!!!!

what was their giant mistake?
1) no government leases... no office space or other use space.
2) heavy reliance on pubs/bars... so young people.. who park on the street 2 km away and walk...

One ministry lease, one MTO, MTH, Canada immigration, city library, municipal office for something!!! and Lansdowne is a license to print and f*** the RedBlack and 67's. Had they been smart, they would have built medical office space, dental offices, Doctors offices, x-ray, labs, etc... then have 1 M Ottawains drop in, drop $30 to park and pay $10/ft^2 of lease...

It is all about one of 2 dollars Jet.. the beautiful government/tax dollar... or the "f*** you have no choice dollar"... a doctor sends you to some test lab because he fears you have "cancer"... you will go... you will pay the $30 to park and move on... the lab being pseudo government will happily pay $10 a square foot,,, the employees are well paid and will be okay paying $300 a month in parking... heck, their union may negotiate a deal for them... and the project owner will rake it in...

You need to watch the George Clooney movie "the Descendants". Watch the first 10 minutes.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Once again you're being disingenuous. There's one rink on your list (not counting MSG and KeyArena because those are clearly new arenas) that had $400M spent on renovations.

If you think there's no difference between a new rink and a renovated rink, why didn't they just renovate beloved rinks like Maple Leaf Gardens, The Forum, the Boston Garden, etc instead of replacing them with new rinks?

assennayo

Interesting development in NY, after their Reno’s, lease is about to expire, and issues with train station.

MSG, Penn Station are ‘not compatible’ due to boundaries restricting improvements: MTA

The state-run MTA has signed off on a bombshell 11th-hour report claiming both the station and World’s Most Famous Arena are not compatible.

nypost.com

Bombshell Report: After More than 50 Years, Railroads Now Say MSG is “Not Compatible” Atop Penn Station

For half a century Madison Square Garden, the fourth arena of that name, has sat atop Penn Station like a dental cap sealing the root of an extracted ...

www.westsidespirit.com

 

[Golden_Jet]

again.. why have things stalled!!!!!

If you are a perspective owner of the team and thus a front runner for the development project.. you need BIG.. I mean f***ing big.... you need the project to be "real-estate" with a hockey team thrown in.. not the other way around.

Foxborough... Go visit. It is massive.. tons of high cost lease space. And tons of surrounding parking. All controlled/owned by Robert Kraft. It is busy 12 months a year. They play a mere 10 games a year.. The principle usage is: other.

Go now,, no Football, the place is packed. Movie theatres, restaurants, shops...

Go watch some event there. From 10 KM out, the parking lots start.... last chance at $25 parking (circa 2014).

what drove landsdown... underground parking, retail space, condos.... The redblacks and their 10 dates!!!!

what was their giant mistake?
1) no government leases... no office space or other use space.
2) heavy reliance on pubs/bars... so young people.. who park on the street 2 km away and walk...

One ministry lease, one MTO, MTH, Canada immigration, city library, municipal office for something!!! and Lansdowne is a license to print and f*** the RedBlack and 67's. Had they been smart, they would have built medical office space, dental offices, Doctors offices, x-ray, labs, etc... then have 1 M Ottawains drop in, drop $30 to park and pay $10/ft^2 of lease...

It is all about one of 2 dollars Jet.. the beautiful government/tax dollar... or the "f*** you have no choice dollar"... a doctor sends you to some test lab because he fears you have "cancer"... you will go... you will pay the $30 to park and move on... the lab being pseudo government will happily pay $10 a square foot,,, the employees are well paid and will be okay paying $300 a month in parking... heck, their union may negotiate a deal for them... and the project owner will rake it in...

You need to watch the George Clooney movie "the Descendants". Watch the first 10 minutes.

Nothing you posted there has anything to do with what I replied to, there is only 2.7 hectacres at the moment. Not 21. LeBreton had 500 spots for a much larger piece of land, in original deal.
Landsdowne has parking for 1000 spots.

 

[Beech]

When the CDN dollar was tanking, feds offered 2-3 million per team to help out, politicians and citizens lashed out and complained , and the offer was withdrawn 3 days later. So likely no change of view with politicians.

yes.... but this is brilliant. Silent..... no splash... no dash... quiet.... you are not giving anything to anyone... no one to bitch!!!!!

The land... poof...toxic, clean it up.. get it off our hands... so teh Feds are safe. 200 M from the Province, 100-200 M from the city... investment... we make it back in jobs and taxes. who does not want jobs...plus "think of the great acts that come to your city!!!!" and now "you will have a great place to go to".

Leases!!!!! ahhh this is the brilliant part.
1) no one pays attention.. who teh f pays attention to what office where??????
2) we all sit back and say, "well they need offices somewhere"
3) we all love libraries.... a sign of an evolved society... isn't is great.

so we are not giving money to hockey teams...NO.. we are running society...

brilliant....no one complains... no one is the wisest.

no one asks why the OHIP office is in the heart of downtown. So when we go, we have to navigate traffic and drop $30.
no one asks why the passport office is downtown and ditto

will someone ask if we now have two such facilities, half empty??? but hey.... we got another $5 M to re-sign Brady and we're going to win the cup this year!!!!

Edmonton is a cap team... with McJesus... less Ed's plan, Edmontonian are less happy...

a beautiful, workable, long term solution that makes everyone happy. Less us who will be paying for decades. but the sisters get 1 B, the new owners sell in 10-20 years for 4 b, hockey players, staff will make a small fortune, League HRR goes up.

It is brilliant...

 

[Beech]

Nothing you posted there has anything to do with what I replied to, there is only 2.7 hectacres at the moment. Not 21. LeBreton had 500 spots for a much larger piece of land, in original deal.
Landsdowne has parking for 1000 spots.

about 500 Meters away, maybe!!! is another piece of city owned land..

nice and empty, not toxic.

get it for free.. no nee for the 300 M for soil clean up.. arm twist to get all 3 levels to pony up... and you are just as good. If that starts taking hold, how long before the NCC backs down and gives the entire 21 Hectares away!!!!

nothing changes Jet... Massive real-estate, tied into government leases. Less that, and this is going to be a catastrophe.

the hope was the 1000 spots at Lansdowne would be filled 7 days a week.. at $30.. is 30 K a day... ~10 M a year. With nothing forcing people to park... that collapsed. Go the any hospital in Ottawa and see if there are empty parking spots!!!!

It will be fascinating to see the next 2-3 years and to see what the team sell price was, if conditions, to see what a new arena deals looks like, etc.

if indeed a humble new arena plan and someone does pay 1 B for the team... f*** do I want to see that.

 

[Golden_Jet]

about 500 Meters away, maybe!!! is another piece of city owned land..

nice and empty, not toxic.

get it for free.. no nee for the 300 M for soil clean up.. arm twist to get all 3 levels to pony up... and you are just as good. If that starts taking hold, how long before the NCC backs down and gives the entire 21 Hectares away!!!!

nothing changes Jet... Massive real-estate, tied into government leases. Less that, and this is going to be a catastrophe.

the hope was the 1000 spots at Lansdowne would be filled 7 days a week.. at $30.. is 30 K a day... ~10 M a year. With nothing forcing people to park... that collapsed. Go the any hospital in Ottawa and see if there are empty parking spots!!!!

It will be fascinating to see the next 2-3 years and to see what the team sell price was, if conditions, to see what a new arena deals looks like, etc.

if indeed a humble new arena plan and someone does pay 1 B for the team... f*** do I want to see that.

Re: government leases.
The government has put up 40% of its office space downtown for sale, due to remote working.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Once again you're being disingenuous. There's one rink on your list (not counting MSG and KeyArena because those are clearly new arenas) that had $400M spent on renovations.

If you think there's no difference between a new rink and a renovated rink, why didn't they just renovate beloved rinks like Maple Leaf Gardens, The Forum, the Boston Garden, etc instead of replacing them with new rinks?

assennayo

I like how you say I'm being disingenuous but then you ask why they didn't renovate historical buildings built in the 1920s and 1930s with limited seating capacities, by modern sporting standards, instead of building new ones?

Anyway, I'm not going to go through every single arena that has had renovations and provide a detailed summary explaining why a $200M renovation was substantial or why a $150M renovation changed the footprint and the look of the arena. The fact is, almost every building in the NHL with a similar amount of age is in the process of undergoing substantial renovations or have built/are building a new arena.

I don't think we need to continue this conversation any further. Don't expect any more direct replies from me.

 

[Beech]

Re: government leases.
The government has put up 40% of its office space downtown for sale, due to remote working.

yup.... what I believe is slowing the process down..

things are changing and have been changing over the last 6 -10 months..

If the BIG real-estate deal is no longer there, what now????

I am hoping the sisters get their 1 B... I am hoping the new owner has a brilliant plan to pay off that 1B. Spend to the cap. Find another 1B CDN (maybe less. so ~ 850 USD) for a new arena. With no sure dollar government leases, no 10,000 parking spots, no "forced use" facilities. Still generate what will probably need to be 220-240 M a year... all USD.

On a team that in 2018 or so generated 127 m.. GRANTED A DISLIKED OWNER, SO 150 M. Add playoffs 160 M-170. I want to know where the 60-80 M extra is coming from????

I hope everyone is right and the cirque de soleil comes 3-4 times a year, packs the place and people are willing to pay a $5 surcharge for the privilege. And does so for another 20-30 acts a year.

 

[Golden_Jet]

yup.... what I believe is slowing the process down..

things are changing and have been changing over the last 6 -10 months..

If the BIG real-estate deal is no longer there, what now????

I am hoping the sisters get their 1 B... I am hoping the new owner has a brilliant plan to pay off that 1B. Spend to the cap. Find another 1B CDN (maybe less. so ~ 850 USD) for a new arena. With no sure dollar government leases, no 10,000 parking spots, no "forced use" facilities. Still generate what will probably need to be 220-240 M a year... all USD.

On a team that in 2018 or so generated 127 m.. GRANTED A DISLIKED OWNER, SO 150 M. Add playoffs 160 M-170. I want to know where the 60-80 M extra is coming from????

I hope everyone is right and the cirque de soleil comes 3-4 times a year, packs the place and people are willing to pay a $5 surcharge for the privilege. And does so for another 20-30 acts a year.

We definitely agree, it’s going to be hard to generate enough revenue to pay down debt and loans.

 

[Flamingo]

All we have in Canada is hockey.

Quebec city had no team, built a new arena (in the hope)... Winnipeg, no team, built an arena and got a team.. afetr everyone cried in his beer over the Jets first leaving.

We have winter 8 months a year. It coincides with hockey.. The CFL is a joke and is in the summer. No NBA (other than TO), No MLB, other than TO and it too is in the summer. It leaves us hockey...

and hockey is our pride... it belongs to us... it is sports to Russia and the former eastern bloc.. it is how we tell the world we are "good". Do you want to be the politician that hurts that? Do you want to be the politician that injures that...

Do you want Hollywood boy or any other celebraty on every airwave, critizing the 3 levels of government for not helping the Sens... And how they could compete, win a cup if the government did not block plans for a new arena????

Can you imagine in 2-3 years just as this team is about to win a cup.. "issues"... think Quebec/Colorado early 90's.... Do you want to be that politician.? especially when you are not spending your own money.

Mono-rail my friend..

The NHL is not worth any public funding. Save your national existential angst for public health care. Let's avoid the disaster that Calgary residents are stuck with.

'Zero revenue': More event centre details expected Monday as criticism of deal grows

One critic says Calgary's deal with the Flames on the Event Centre generates no operating revenue for the city.

calgaryherald.com

(And yes, I can imagine a team leaving just before winning a cup. I was a Nordiques fan. Save your histrionics, this isn't an existential risk for the NHL in Canada.)

 

[Beech]

We definitely agree, it’s going to be hard to generate enough revenue to pay down debt and loans.

Edmonton ~ 600 M project.

The Katz group put in ~ 95 M. Then had to add 15 M.. so ~ 110 M... on what became ~650 M

125 M was against leases....they financed against signed leases !!!! now who with?
150 M against ticket surcharges. No building yet, no events, yet someone was perfectly willing to give them 150 M against future charges. Now who co-signed you figure!!!!!
300 M from some development fund.

Damn... I mean Damn.... I am guessing everyone of the 31 other owners in the league must be drinking a toast in Katz's honor. And wishing Stelmach was their governor/Premier.

115 out of 650... and a team/development that is probably around 1.5 B today. Katz dropped 145 in 2007 to buy.

260 M became 1.5 B... in 17 years... 13%.... Damn.

Stelmach is only 73... We can have him replace Ford... a buck a beer has passed...a net 2 B hockey project makes more sense... we can cross into Quebec and pay $2 a beer.

 

[Beech]

The NHL is not worth any public funding. Save your national existential angst for public health care. Let's avoid the disaster that Calgary residents are stuck with.

'Zero revenue': More event centre details expected Monday as criticism of deal grows

One critic says Calgary's deal with the Flames on the Event Centre generates no operating revenue for the city.

calgaryherald.com

(And yes, I can imagine a team leaving just before winning a cup. I was a Nordiques fan. Save your histrionics, this isn't an existential risk for the NHL in Canada.)

Flamingo,

my wife died of cancer 6 months ago... We went through hell.

No one is less a fan of hockey spending and is a bigger champion of health care and social issues than me.

I would have assumed, you would have seen and detected the cynicism and "anti" stand in me...

I am guessing you have not read any of my posts the last 4 years.. Half get deleted for being politically charged.

I am an advocated of arresting and jailing politicians for their callus governing. For their improper priority and for their disregard for human health and safety.

I hope you are a person of conviction and act. And try and influence those around you to take more socially responsible stances... and start booting worthless politicians out.

I want pro sports teams to get as much money as I need hemroids.

Read post 430

 

[DaveMatthew]

It'll be fun watching Gary Bettman and the new ownership group talk about how incredibly well the league is doing, what great potential this $1.2B investment has, and the tremendous growth they expect to see, only to turn around 90 days later to cry poor and threaten relocation if they don't get handouts from taxpayers.

 

[Flamingo]

Flamingo,

my wife died of cancer 6 months ago... We went through hell.

No one is less a fan of hockey spending and is a bigger champion of health care and social issues than me.

I would have assumed, you would have seen and detected the cynicism and "anti" stand in me...

I am guessing you have not read any of my posts the last 4 years.. Half get deleted for being politically charged.

I am an advocated of arresting and jailing politicians for their callus governing. For their improper priority and for their disregard for human health and safety.

I hope you are a person of conviction and act. And try and influence those around you to take more socially responsible stances... and start booting worthless politicians out.

I want pro sports teams to get as much money as I need hemroids.

Read post 430

Ah, I'm not familiar with your style. It did seem like a really clumsy and disorganized rally for civic profiteering. I should have recognized it as satire.

I just lost one parent and one parent-in-law, and had to see what had been done to LTC in two provinces. My deepest sympathies, my friend.

Believe me, I'm at the point of taking up devoted political engagement. I'm fed up watching the private interestes getting fed public money to our detriment.

 

[Beech]

Ah, I'm not familiar with your style. It did seem like a really clumsy and disorganized rally for civic profiteering. I should have recognized it as satire.

I just lost one parent and one parent-in-law, and had to see what had been done to LTC in two provinces. My deepest sympathies, my friend.

Believe me, I'm at the point of taking up devoted political engagement. I'm fed up watching the private interestes getting fed public money to our detriment.

sorry about your loses as well.

we have lost our way and have distorted priorities. Many will end up in rooms 1704 and 1714 at the Cornwall hospital, or the emergency rooms at the Ottawa general, or the second floor at the Ottawa general oncology department.. when they do, it will be interesting to see if spending to the cap has meaning!!!! or what act comes to town or if a buck a beer is worth it.

 

[Beech]

It'll be fun watching Gary Bettman and the new ownership group talk about how incredibly well the league is doing, what great potential this $1.2B investment has, and the tremendous growth they expect to see, only to turn around 90 days later to cry poor and threaten relocation if they don't get handouts from taxpayers.

who cares. It will be interesting to see if come next election cycle, people remember what politicians did in regards to NHL teams...

will we remember if Markie Mark drops money, or if Doug and Slugs does or if Scaramga's boy does.

Gary has every right to say what he please, asks for whatever he wants and do whatever he does... why are we listening to him???? or the politicians that acquiesce.

 

[GCK]

Supporting public investment in a project that kick starts a redevelopment of a barren wasteland does not mean there is less money for social programs. This either or argument is fiction. There has been massive increases in healthcare and education. The problems start when an elementary teacher at 10 years of service is making 105K for 195 days of work.

 

[Sun God Nika]

Debrincat might be a casualty of this dragging on

 

[DueDiligence]

Debrincat might be a casualty of this dragging on

He certainly might be. DBC wants to wait to see who the new owner is and their direction but that might not fit with current management goals.

 

[Big Muddy]

Interesting development in NY, after their Reno’s, lease is about to expire, and issues with train station.

MSG, Penn Station are ‘not compatible’ due to boundaries restricting improvements: MTA

The state-run MTA has signed off on a bombshell 11th-hour report claiming both the station and World’s Most Famous Arena are not compatible.

nypost.com

Bombshell Report: After More than 50 Years, Railroads Now Say MSG is “Not Compatible” Atop Penn Station

For half a century Madison Square Garden, the fourth arena of that name, has sat atop Penn Station like a dental cap sealing the root of an extracted ...

www.westsidespirit.com

They were going to rebuild/repurpose the old post office (think it was called the Moynihan building) across the street from Penn Station along with a massive project called the The Tunnel Project (aka the ARC project) which would build 2 new tubes (tunnels) into the new cavern and station, but that project could canned after it got designed. I think it was because NJ Transit (hence the state of New Jersey) would be responsible for any cost overruns which typically happen in a project of that size and scope . Chris Christie, the governor of New Jersey at that time pulled the plug.

Penn Station is a pretty ugly station (yet perfunctory) for those that have ever been there and Long Island Railroad, Amtrak & New Jersey transit all use this station. It's a stark contrast from Grand Central which is a beautiful station well worth a visit. It doesn't surprise me that the station probably doesn't meet new fire code regulations for passenger flow and egress in an emergency situation.

The tunnels that go from New Jersey under the Hudson river ultimately into Penn Station, Manhattan are over 100 years old.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Apparently The City of Ottawa has money to burn… the proposed Bag & Tag garbage proposal is going to cost $3.5 million to implement and $1 Million annuly to operate ….. it does not seem that anyone has a problem with that, but heaven forbid there is some sort of tax break for a new downtown arena!!

The failed rendezvous Lebreton deal involved a sale of the land, at fair Market value, minus the cost of soil re-mitigation …… The new owners should expect the same ”break” that Eugene Melnyk received.

This is the sale that doesn't end
Yes, it goes on and on, my friend

 

[Beech]

Supporting public investment in a project that kick starts a redevelopment of a barren wasteland does not mean there is less money for social programs. This either or argument is fiction. There has been massive increases in healthcare and education. The problems start when an elementary teacher at 10 years of service is making 105K for 195 days of work.

because there are all told some 1000,000 plus teachers (all told).. Have unions

there are al told about 20% of society working for the government and pseudo-governments. All have unions

they are smart enough to support one another.

and so when a teacher wants money, he/she gets it, or the 20% like her, will vote out any politician that objects...

Now since that politician is not spending his/her own money. Why the F care... give them what they want, get your 2 and more terms in office...and après nous la deluge. or is it la deluge... I don't care to look it up.

Until such a day as the remaining 80% of us unit...and deal with practicality. Be willing to endure strikes from the 20% to break them. Until such a time as we are willing to put up with a police strike and not become the wild wild west. And so we keep them out long enough to starve and then have them crawl back.. and so on.. The police go on strike as little as a week and all heck breaks loose... Politicians know this.. so , they give them what they want.

As others strike and cause mischief, damage and protest and blockades.. the police sit by... so again, politicians, not spending their own money. Concerned about 20% voting as a bloc..the rest of us getting mad at them... well, it becomes easier to acquiesce...

And so, less money to be spent elsewhere remember that 80 year old dying in a LTC... she is powerless next to the 22 year old RN and her 100,000 union brothers and sisters...

dealing with 35 year old,, grade 5 teacher Mrs. Johnson... well, she darn near has nuclear weapons behind her... good luck... it will be you blown to bits.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I personally want people educating our children to be well paid professionals, just like I want labour unions to continue to push salaries and benefits upwards for regular working folk.

Could we give a f*** about private sector professional and business folk salaries that always seem to get a pass when the rabble wants to complain about earnings? of course not. Imagine being at each others throats over 100k in these times.

Crabs in a bucket as always, we never learn.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

I personally want people educating our children to be well paid professionals, just like I want labour unions to continue to push salaries and benefits upwards for regular working folk.

Could we give a f*** about private sector professional and business folk salaries that always seem to get a pass when the rabble wants to complain about earnings? of course not. Imagine being at each others throats over 100k in these times.

Crabs in a bucket as always, we never learn.

I also don't think it's as cut and dry as saying teachers get 2 months vacation and only work 190 days of the year.

I know of some teachers who work much more than the standard 37.5 hours a week and take home work regularly. Lots of planning and paperwork when it comes to educational professors